Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Elmer Keith 600-yard mule deer

You right you can tell who knows and who doesnt and you don't.

You know what? I didn't bring up the .243 thing, you did. But, since we're talking about it, I want you to claim right here, right now, that you would rather use a 44 mag pistol over a 243 rifle to shoot a deer at 600 yards. Say it.

You are devoid of facts I never brought the 243 into this topic. You now change the discussion. The fact is that FPE is a poor indicator of lethality

Stepping away from the .44 versus .243 discussion for a moment; has there been any human in history who garnered more postmortem defense than Elmer?

You have to use some form of measurement when having a conversation, the two common ones are speed and energy. You and I both know there is not a lot left at 600 yards out of a 6" pistol. If I claimed I blew a hole through a deer at 600 yards with a 44, I'd be laughed off this site. EK says it, then it's the gospel. Never understood why people blindly follow someone. I am not denying what EK, JOC, and those type writers did for shooting and hunting half a century ago, but they were also bullsheitters, you gotta be to be a good writer. I just chose to call em on a little of their bullsheit.

I know a man that shot a wounded antelope around d 600 yards with a 240 Remington JSP the same load as Elmer and it blew a hole all the way through. FPE is not related to killing power. Momentum, direct applied force, velocity, and frontal area are the founding mechanisms. not FPE.

MIrage, I'm going to let the pictures do the talking here and provide a link to discussion about terminal ballistics. The cartridge at hand is the CCI CB Short.













http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

Have fun. You need to understand there are 3 schools of ballistic science. Interior, exterior and terminal.

DigitalDan:
Top of the morning to you sir, I hope that you folks down in Florida are doing acceptably well in this current state of confusion we're in.

Thanks for posting up those photos, I was actually discussing them with a buddy of mine as we were speaking of the vagaries of life with regards to various .22 rimfire projectile performance on game.

He's the guy who had the uncle who we spoke of via PM awhile back.

Anyway, he's killed deer with a pointy bit of metal attached to a hunk of carbon fiber and another buddy here in BC has killed pretty fair sized bull moose and a very large Okanagan bull elk with an arrow.

Whenever the subject of energy comes up, I tend to remember that neither your CB's or an arrow can work really can they? Then again for years scientists couldn't figure out how bumble bees could fly being the shape they were...

Seeing as you've got a skull with a hole in it - and photographs of said skull in it's original container before it was unwrapped - I am forced to deduce that something other than energy or science killed that pig Dan!

All the best to you folks sir. Stay well.

Dwayne

Dwayne, bumblebees have a secret shared with helicopters. They don’t “fly”, they beat the air into submission. Few understand the abstract, and it is remarkably easy to overlook.

As to CBs and arrows, I suspect most would benefit from a historical review of the battle of Agincourt.


Before the Battle of Agincourt in 1415, the French, anticipating victory over the English, proposed to cut off the middle finger of all captured English soldiers. Without the middle finger it would be impossible to draw the renowned English longbow and therefore [soldiers would] be incapable of fighting in the future. This famous weapon was made of the native English yew tree, and the act of drawing the longbow was known as "plucking the yew." Much to the bewilderment of the French, the English won a major upset and began mocking the French by waving their middle fingers at the defeated French, saying, "See, we can still pluck yew!"

Over the years some "folk etymologies" have grown up around this symbolic gesture. Since "pluck yew" is rather difficult to say, like "pheasant mother plucker," which is who you had to go to for the feathers used on the arrows for the longbow, the difficult consonant cluster at the beginning has gradually changed to a labiodental fricative "f," and thus the words often used in conjunction with the one-finger salute are mistakenly thought to have something to do with an intimate encounter. It is also because of the pheasant feathers on the arrows that the gesture is known as "giving the bird."

DigitalDan;


Thanks for the reply and the levity sir, it's much appreciated.

Indeed it's always a good thing to explore new areas of learning so that we can learn what we previously did not know - or something reasonably akin to that!

All the best sir.

Dwayne

🤦‍♂️

DD--I don't think that the English used pheasant feathers on the arrows for their longbows. Every thing I have read is that the preferred feather for fletching was from the wing of a grey goose. More specifically, from the right wing of said goose, as the natural curvature of the right wing feather insured that the quill of the feather did not dig into the knuckle of the archer's bow hand, as the longbow did not have an arrow rest and is shot off he fist. That, and English farmers raised lots of geese. Pheasants, not so much.

Funny things can happen with firearms/bullets. Even to someone who shoots as little as I do.

I had a .338WM 210 NP load "blow up" on the shoulder blade of a moose at about 100 yards. Shoulder blade was shattered, with BB sized bits of lead and bone all throiugh the near-side lung- just peppered. Nothing in the far lung. The killing shot was with the same load, basically up his nose at 10 feet when he lurched back to his feet. (That is the second and last time I ever approached a downed animal from the front- with much the same result - slow learner!)

Massive entry wound- I think the rear half of the bullet was lost back out it. Could not find it anyway.

Do I think this "bullet failure" likely to happen ever again? Almost certainly not.

Will I ever use the 210NP again? Probably not, unless it is all I have. Unlikely!

I try not to call anyone who could shoot like Elmer a liar........

Most Worthy of a REDUX !!







Thanks for some humor in our Dreary Situation !!

Jerry

OK. I didn't write the piece, but if you insist, Goose it. Goose it good mother plucker.

There ya go!

Hmm...I seem to recall reading that pheasants are native to China and introduced to the U.S. in the mid 1800's(?). If true, of Chinese origin, I doubt they would have been in England/France in the early 1400s. But, what do I know for sure. It was certainly before my time. Irregardless, it was a quaint story and thanks for sharing.


Now, back to the hog killin': I have never doubted any of Dan's hog adventures. However, Unless I am in an elevated stand or such, I personally would be more than reluctant to engage in mortal combat with a boar hog armed with a .22CB. No doubt, it is a lot about shot placement. My personal salute to Dan's marksmanship skills!

As to Elmer Keith: He has done MUCH more shooting in his life than probably anyone now living other than those who constantly shoot competitively. When someone such as he shoots multiple tens of thousands of rounds - if not more -, and much of it in "real life" such as at game, rocks, sticks, cans, varmints, etc., as well as proper targets, some seemingly incredible shots will be made from time to time. I remember as a boy some 50 - 55 years ago taking one shot with a Winchester M-69 .22 at a flying bird at a distance of 125 yards or so on the challenge of a friend. The bird went straight down with one shot fired. Never do that again, but I have done it. My point is that Elmer did a hell of a lot more shooting than I ever have or will and that also applies to the vast majority of those here. Given his acquired skill and maybe some good luck here and there when firing that astronomical number of shots in his lifetime, yeah I believe him.

If the question is will a 455 Webley course your body, or a deers body, armpit to armpit, yeah it will....

From how many thousand yards away? 😁

Personally, I never care for Keith's writings, and I have read quite a bit of it. He bragged a lot, and he complained a lot about ideas that were stolen from him, and how others had got credit for something he did. I also never bought into his BS about how 270 bullets would bounce off of an elk, and one needed large caliber magnums because anything smaller was only good for plinking. And, like some others, I find that a 600 yard shot with a handgun would be hard to believe..............but I wasn't there, as no one alive today was either, and to say that it didn't happen is pure speculation. We've all made shots that someone else would find hard to believe, so maybe he did it as he said he did.