Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles 221 Fireball questions

I have some duplication in my small caliber battery and am considering a re-barrel job to a 221 Fireball.
My candidates are:
Hawkeye 204
A-Bolt 223
X-Bolt 223

I know the OAL of the 221 is shorter than the 223 & 204. My question is will there be any issues in feeding the shorter Fireball cartridges from these mags?

OSU Sig: I am not familiar with re-barreling any of your candidate Rifles.
I am familiar though with several Rifles in 221 Remington Fireball cartridge and they are all WAY above average in the accuracy department.
I know of two Remington 700's in caliber 223 Remington that were re-barreled to 221 Remington Fireball - these belong to friends and are Colony Varmint Rifles - both feed correctly/reliably - I will have to contact them to see if the magazines were or were not modified to the 221 Fireball.
In the past I bought 2 (two) new factory offered Rifles in caliber 221 Remington Fireball - again both shoot VERY well indeed.
One is a single shot Kimber if Oregon Ultra-Varmint and the other is a Remington 700 Classic in 221 Fireball - it feeds fine from the magazine.
An old friend of mine about 25 years ago contacted the Remington Custom Shop and begged them to take his money and make him a Remington 40XB-KS in 221 Remington Fireball. Finally they did and he let me shoot the Rifle at the range on a dead calm day. The groups I (we) fired that day are some of the best groups I have ever had anything to do with from a "factory Rifle"!
I guess the object of my post is to urge you to give this cool little cartridge a try! Its efficiency, accuracy, brass life, barrel life and low recoil are wonderful attributes in my experience.
Finally I like the 204 Ruger cartridge immensely as well, and seeing's you have a pair of 223's I vote you re-do one of them.
Best of luck with whichever route you go - just GO!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy, its always good to get your input. Thank you. Like you, I love my 204's but with 3, I have one extra I can do something with. I have a 700 SPS Varmint in 17 Fireball that is a blast to shoot. I suspect the 221 FB will be more of the same.

Thanks again,

Sig.

My 221's are both on Sako L461 actions. Those actions are for .223 and even I believe 222Mag. They feed the 221 as if the action was meant for that cartridge. But I'm not familiar enough with the guns you mention to know how well they'd work. In the 90's I did modify a Rem. 700 magazine for 17MIV. Made a thicker spacer block and altered the spring and a solid follower. It worked beautifully and ejected just fine, there was no problem with the extractor position. You could do something like that as last resort. But the small Sako or some other short action really makes a nice rifle for that cartridge.

Thanks Ackman. The Hawkeye is a controlled feed compared to a push feed on the Brownings.

OSU Sig: You are welcome - I did not know you had a "bevy" of 204's - no reason then not to try the Ruger in a 221 Remington Fireball.
Again best of luck and you will LOVE the 221 Fireball.
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VarmintGuy

only thing better than the 221 FB.........

20-Fireball (Vartarg)

https://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/20caliber/

Oh man!...
You are NOT being helpful..

How about the .222. They have a reputation of being accurate. I always thought it would be great to have one. I currently have an XP100 in the furball.

kwg

I have a 222 and the reputation is warranted.

I vote for either 20VT or 20 SCC (20VTAI)

Another option that I KNOW works well with the Fireball, is a regular short action Howa. A buddy built one on a Howa, with a PacNor full bull barrel (1,25"). That thing would SHOOT, you had to fight it to get a group over a quarter-inch. Gawd only knows what it would have done with a good trigger! It fed and extracted like a champ, too. No alterations necessary.


Jim got bored with it, and swapped it off for something else, an LVSF in .17 Remington, I think.

I have a Fireball in a CZ 527, I think it's the most accurate factory rifle I've ever owned. Just feed it Reloader Seven and any bullet 52gr, or under, and it shines.

A terrific little cartridge, but one that gets absolutely no respect from the media, rifles normally chambered for it, no local availability of commercially loaded ammunition and higher prices for it when you do find it. I've got a Cooper .221 Fireball that is a great choice for Wisconsin because our varmints aren't so big or abundant as in other places and the distances where we can shoot are usually full of trees. The Fireball was named correctly given the flash that I saw coming out of a friend's XP100, but in a rifle it is a real joy to shoot. Less noise and recoil than a .223 or .22-250 with longer case life. More oomph than a Hornet or K-hornet and it doesn't blow around like a .17 something. Given what I've seen since I bought my Fireball, I should have probably opted for a .222 or .223 because I fear my Fireball is going the way of my old .222 Remington Magnum. A great cartridge with no visible means of support.

My choices are more limited as I shoot left hand rifles so the Howa is not an option. I'll be choosing from my battery of Brownings and a Ruger and I feel pretty good about the 221FB. Thanks for all the ideas and information.

Idk why so many people get hung up on “feeding”
It’s not feeding you will have issues with. It will pickup the round and chamber just like any other cartridge. It will even eject it just fine so long as you didn’t FIRE IT.

The problem is the short little case youre left with after the bullet is gone. Most likely it will pull the case out and instead of flipping it out the side, it will flip it over backwards in the port. If you’re shooting off the bench at paper or at some little varmint it’s a non issue. But if you’re calling critters, it will cause a major jam up if you don’t notice it and try to rack another one in the chamber.


The CRF of the Ruger might help but after owning 2 700s in the 221fb, I’ve sworn off 223 length actions for fireball length cartridges. No one loves 700s and 221fbs more than me. But the two together is no good.

My 221 is a CZ and it gives me ZERO issues. It’s the perfect little repeater.

As for extraction issues, I ground a couple of coils off the ejector spring of my Fireball on a Stevens 200. Magazine fed single shot, sorta. I sometimes wonder if a mini-Mauser would work, like a CZ? Love the Fireball, since Lil Gun came out it's been pure pleasure.
And yep, maybe what I would do is cut back one of the 204s to VT or VT AI. That would probably be pretty awesome. Someday......

CZ no longer chambers the 221 in their 527. Mine would be one of the last rifles I ever part with. The 527 solves all of the issues of feeding, extraction and ejection.

Ky221: I am puzzled at your problems with the 221 Fireball fired cases not extracting/ejecting properly.
My Remington 700 Classic in 221 Remington Fireball functions perfectly? But I am speaking here from personal experience of my one Fireball and that friends Remington 40XB-KS in 221 Remington Fireball and a couple of Remington 700 re-barreled 223's.
Thanks for posting/sharing that great picture of the "Ground Hog" (?) and your Rifle.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
P.S.: I am editing this post to add the fact that I also have an all factory stock Remington Model 700 VSF (Varmint Syntehtic Fluted) in 17 Remington Fireball and it feeds, extracts and ejects perfectly also.
Maybe, as one poster added later on in this thread, that Remington "changed the position of the ejector in their Rifles chambered in Fireball calibers" and that obviously cured any problems with the Fireballs functioning(?).

That’s a big woodchuck!

Model 700 LS
Model 700 LVSF

BOTH had the exact same problems I just spoke of. Again. It’s not a feeding issue. It’s not an extraction issue. It’s an EJECTION issue with empty cases. Do a search and you will see that many of the 700 221FB owners have complained over the same thing I am. If you have a 700 that actually tosses EMPTY cases up and out of the port then that’s great. But MOST do not.
Both of these rifles shot very well, and the LVSF was stupid accurate. But because of the issues with kicking out the empties. Both went down the road. The last time I had the LVSF out, it cost me getting a much needed follow up shot on the coyote in the picture. It’s a shame but that’s just the way it is with the 700 action and the short case. I’m glad yours works . Hang onto that thing. I wish mine would have been more reliable.

Read here http://www.saubier.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-21995.html

Not to steal the thread away from the OP, but here’s a better pic. He was pretty big. Earliest I’ve ever killed one too. February 13th


boy waiting for girl images

Remington moved the location of the ejector on those rifles chambered on the fireball case, like 17 fireball and the 221 fireball. The ejector is in a different spot on those chambered on the 223 case.

Ky221: Wow! That indeed IS a "double chubby Chuck"!
Good for you and thanks for sharing the great pictures.
I shot my first "Rock Chuck" at age 10 (eastern Oregon) and over the intervening 62 years have probably killed at least 10,000 (ten thousand!) more.
I have wanted to kill a "Wood Chuck" for well over half a century now - it has been on my "bucket list" so long I keep passing over the urgency of "getten'er done" as I am now well into my 7th decade.
Maybe once this corona virus thing has passed I will saddle up the old VarmintMobile and head east for the Wood Chuck haunts?
Yep gotta get to work on that bucket list - I ain't gettin no younger!
Thanks again.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

That’s neat. I’d love to hike up into some of that high country and shoot at a few marmots or rock chucks or whatever it is that y’all callem lol.

If a woodchuck is on your bucket list. You should by all means get on that. I can’t speak for the rest of the eastern states but around here. The good old days of ground hog hunting are long gone. We still have several but they mostly live close to inhabited areas, in and around barn lots, under old barns etc. the days of catching a woodchuck out in the middle of farmer johns hayfield and shooting him from 200+ yards with your 22-250 seem to be a thing of yesteryear. We still have the fields but people keep them manicured like a golf course these days. I imagine that with the ever increasing number of coyotes, the woodchucks have learned that being close to people ain’t a bad thing. I shoot a couple each year, but only those that wonder into the barn lot or pasture field where the cattle and horses are. Which is there this guy was. I’ve got a new 17remington and 17 hornet that I’m itching to whop a whistlepig with, so hopefully one finds his way into the field again this summer.

I imagine there’s still some good woodchuck hunting in Virginia, and Tennessee. Also I’d say central Ky, but here in the eastern part of the state. I’m not so sure it would be worth a drive.

Ky221: Thanks for the tips on the "whistle pigs"!
I appreciate them.
Keep after'em.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I think I'll go with a LH 527 that I have. It's a 223 but I found some 221 FB mags on ebay.

The 527 has a Mauser style ejector and slot, right? I've never handled one, so I dunno.

Dave, if you mean a slot in the lug opposite the extractor and a blade ejector, yes. It flips the cases to the side.

So would the 527 have any 221 FB ejection issues, when coming from a 223?

My Sako was a set back and rechambered 222 magnum. It works much better in Fireball than the parent cartridge in the little Sako action. Been a staple for me for about three decades.

No it will not.

Thanks Sherm.
Next question: Is there a reason to get a faster than 1-12 twist bbl?

Fireball2, I sure wish that I'd been gun savvy enough to have done that with my old Sako Vixen L461 .222 Remington Magnum and turned it into something that I could have actually bought ammunition for.

I would run an 11 twist. A 12 will work for 32 grainers and it will be iffy with 39-40. Some 12's shoot 39-40 some dont.
An 11 is a better option.

All of mine have been 12twists and I never had any issues shooting 40s or 50s. My 221s shot both with equal accuracy

Can’t see any reason to shoot anything larger than a 50g bullet out of the little 221 case. And it really shines with 40s.

I don’t know of any 32g bullets that are .224.

thanks to both of you. Ky221, you don't need to answer my pm. You answered it for me.

I thought you were referring to a 20 cal. For a 22 12 will be fine.

Thanks.

To this posters point - I had a 700 SA that had a Krieger #2 or so in FB. Extraction was not 100%....I always drop the firing pin when rifle is pointed in the air..........yep.......be careful to check your chambers before you call it a day at the range or field. 40 Vmax over Lil Gun was Flat and Fast...and that gun was a bughole gun. Loved the 221, and like the 222, personally I feel a fast 40 is the way to go. Just me, they work! The industry should have more 221s and 222s.......they ALWAYS shot circles around any and every 223 I owned.

The .221 is made for 40's. Doing 3450 in my gun they're very accurate and do a great job on varmints. Through a 14TW barrel. I suppose you could go with a 12 twist but it's really not necessary.
About .extraction problems on a regular 700.....the gun I set up for .17MIV was a .223 with an unchanged bolt. Shorten the extractor spring to where the case doesn't go flying but just falls out, and that little case extracts just fine.

Ackman: I agree on the 221 Remington Fireball cartridge "relishing" the 40 grain bullets from a Rifle length barrel.
Both of my factory stock 221 Remington Fireball Rifles prefer 40 grain bullets (accuracy wise) - one prefers the 40 grain Berger hollow-point and the other prefers the 40 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips.
Rock on - 221 Fireball!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Mine shot V-max in one little hole, over Lil Gun, and I believe 3500-3600 is not hard to do.

What barrel length do you 221 shooters recommend?

22”

Mine is also a CZ 527, the 221 will make very good velocities with a 22" barrel. Mine shoots 40's and 52's equally well. But the 40's run just shy of 3500 fps, Rl7,aa1860,Lil gun and CFE Black all shoot well. But CFE black gives me the best combination of accuracy and speed. Awesome caliber, one of my absolute favorites for varmint hunting.

I’ve been thinking of trying the CFE BLK, it looks like a good one to have on hand that I could also use in the 17hornet.

Many thanks, gentlemen. I'll let you know how things progress.

Very glad to see the great .221 Fireball following here on the forum. I wish that the national gun owning community felt the same way. Just another marketing foot shot by big green only bringing it out for the XP100.

Not that it matters, but I have a 14 twist "cutback" barrel, a cheap Wilson stainless on its second action, it's about 23 inches long after being chopped on. That's a fine enough twist for 35s and 40 whatevers in 22. I'm running Blue Dot and Lil Gun in separate brass batches, either Rem factory brass or squished-down 223 culls. Crawled just right, I can watch the bullets fly to the target, which is entertaining as heck. When I downsize, the 221 will be the third to last rifle I have, second being 223 and the last, 22LR. They'll get my 1911 from my cold deads.

Idk If any of you guys are on Facebook or not but I sent Ron Spomer a request to do a write up on the 221FB which he did and posted on his Ron Spomer Outdoors page.

Thanks for that info. I'll check it out.

OSU: Are you having yours rebarreled? I am a lefty so I would have to buy a CZ and get it turned in a 221 Fireball as there is nothing for leftys.

I had a 222 Rem 600 18.5" bbl that was a handy rifle, very mild report. My custom 221 was 22 as I recall. I would not go over. I like short rifles that have enough weight to steady, not full varmint, but a 22 cal in a # 2 or 2.5 will be plenty stiff and accurate. If you want some 'Muzzle hang/heft' go longer like 22-24" depending on how heavy a scope and stock.

Do you want a walking sporter/varminter for carrying? Had a Model 7 XCR in 243, IIRC it had a Magnum 700 contour, fluted, and 20" - it was about perfect, very handy. If you are a long limbed tall guy you might like a bit more barrel for balance.

If you like the 222, you will love the 221. Both very similar. A 222 will do around 3700 w/40s IIRC, the FB around 3600, with Lil Gun.

The 17s and 20s are surely fine rounds, flat and fast, and mild. I'd dabble but the older I get the more I like to K.I.S.S. and use standard common bore sizes for bullets, brushes, rods, etc. I came close years ago to ordering a Cooper in 221, also considered 17 MK4. The 20 Vartag is likely a very fine round, but for me, a 221 slinging 40s should cover a lot of ground. I have heard of folks using high bc bullets in 17 Rems.....but they might be a tad more 'hassle' if you will. If you are keeping things to around 300 yds and in, the 221/40 should serve you well.

Yes, I'm a lefty. Mine is a 223 so I'll spin it off and put a 1-12" Twist bbl on. 22" and threaded, just for fun.

If you look around, you'll find some decent deals on LH 527's. I found some 221FB mags on ebay, so I'm good there.
By the way, the 527 is the only stock rifle I'm aware of that has a single set trigger.

KY - is the magazine for the 221 different than the 223 on the CZ? I have no experience but have considered building a 17FB on a 527.

OSU - as a fellow lefty I think your best option would be the Ruger. Magazines for those Brownings are hard to come by and if you try modifying one and it doesn't work you just gave yourself another headache.

YMMV

Word.

Although brass is a hassle.

BB- here’s a pic of my 221 mag next to my 17 rem mag. The 221 mag is a bit shorter, and has a block in the rear. However. My 221 mag slides and locks into my 17rem mag well with no issues whatsoever.

I tested a 221 Fireball mag in my 527 chambered in 223 Rem. It fit just fine.

I've been avoiding this thread...

I DON'T need a CZ 527, NOR do I need a Fireball....

I DON'T need a CZ 527, NOR do I need a Fireball....

I DON'T need a CZ 527, NOR do I need a Fireball....

I DON'T need a CZ 527, NOR do I need a Fireball....

I DON'T need a CZ 527, NOR do I need a Fireball....



just trying to resist the temptation.....

can't have enough varmint rifles.. but also can't get enough opportunity to get out in the field to use what I have..

Sure you do Seafire!

Don’t you see how much fun it is? This is just some of the fun I’ve had in the last month.

Nice pics of critters, and the target. Good job.

Seafire, if you can't make up your mind, go Deuce, a great alternative.

Ky221....I probably put 6 to 8,000 down range at varmints each year...

When I say I don't get enough time afield to use what I have... that should let you know I have more than one or two..

If I did add to the stable... I'd probably go 20/222... as I have a 20 Practical..

the other would be a 17 Fireball or 17 Rem...

Cliff, the deuce.. I'd load a 223 to those specs.. it gives the same velocity...

the two powders I run the most for volume varmint shooting, is IMR 4198 and Blue Dot...

Thanks John.

Ky221, here is a photo of my CZ527 bolt face. The caliber is 223 Rem. Will you look at your 221 FB and see if they are the same?
Thanks,

Left- 221
Right- 17 rem

I can't tell any difference. Can you?

No sir. Everything is identical as far as my eye can tell.

my thoughts too. Thank for your help and confirmation.

If you happen on to an extra set of dies, please advise.

Hows the project coming?

I don't shoot my Fireball enough to go through a lot of ammunition, but let me say that I am getting concerned at the total lack of factory loaded .221 Fireball ammunition available either locally or mail order. My new Natchez catalog doesn't even show it any longer and there isn't a local box for sale anywhere. Ammunition availability is why I sold off my Sako .222 Remington Magnum years ago. What a great little rifle that was.

Shooter’s pro shop has some 221 ammo for sale..

Got it back yesterday. Haven't taken it out but hope to next week. I have some Lapua brass and now that I got some dies, I'll be loading some 40 grain VMAX over CFE Black or H4198 and see how it goes. It looks really good. My smith was able to use the CZ 223 barrel which saved me time and money.

If you happen to have some AA160 on hand, it does well with the 40 VMAX

I don't have any but can go look for some. Thanks.

You owe to yourself to try RL7. Bout 18.5-19.0g should do it.

Ky 221 is right on hell of a load with 40gr noslers.

Another bullet to try with that combo...

either the 35 gr NTX, Lead free
or the 35 grain Nosler Lead Free...

both bullets are as long as a 50 grain v Max or Ballistic Tip.

Notes made. Thank you both.

I've often thought a nice old Vixen would be sweet in .221 FB!

FWIW - I run 13.3 gr IMR-4227 and a 55 gr FMJ to shoot birdies with (~2,200 fps) Very accurate in my 20" Custom Shop Contender carbine. Let my kid shoot kill a few birds with it this last weekend. Said it really dropped 'em compared to his .22 LR - go figure.