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For a single purpose AR, i.e., "repelling boarders," which is best? Do you really need a red dot for room to room in your home?

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Red Dot, for me, it's faster.

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No but you will need hearing protection. You can point shoot at room distances but a red dot adds versatility.

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I've heard vets say that the need for hearing protection while shooting an M4 indoors is way overrated. They say they could still hear enough to communicate with others during indoor gunfights and suffered no long term hearing loss.

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My Son did it for 20 years and just got out.

He has hearing aids now.

A few and you might be ok but a lot will screw them ears up.

I like a red dot .

Last edited by plainsman456; 03/27/20.
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The M4 must be a lot quieter than my carbine.


Suffered no long term hearing loss!
My ass!


Every darn one of them will sign up for a partial disability check
due to hearing loss.

What they brag about,

the truth,

And what they tell Uncle Sugar...


3 different tales.


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Its your hearing. You sustain hearing damage whether you realize it or not. Auditory exclusion occurs in fight or flight events but you still get hearing damage.

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Get a red dot. Aiming is a real thing. It’s faster and easier in diminished lighting conditions

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With a weapon light the red dot if set properly works pretty good. The smaller red dots set as far forward are cool cause you can keep both eyes open looking around and in the area ahead.


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Originally Posted by plainsman456
My Son did it for 20 years and just got out.

He has hearing aids now.

A few and you might be ok but a lot will screw them ears up.

I like a red dot .

I hear ya on red dots. Makes sense that it's faster. But the hearing loss situation would be different for a combat vet involved in repeated, unprotected, exposure to gun blast, over years, vs someone who always uses hearing protection at the range, but one time was involved in an indoor gunfight without hearing protection. I think it take lots of repeat exposure to have noticeable hearing loss.

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Originally Posted by jimmyp
With a weapon light the red dot if set properly works pretty good. The smaller red dots set as far forward are cool cause you can keep both eyes open looking around and in the area ahead.

Thanks.

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They say the draw back to a laser is that your enemy can track it back to you. Point made, but indoors? would that be relevant in close quarters battle? Thinking one could be quick & handy for close up, when shouldering a weapon to acquire a RD might not be doable.

Just asking, no training or experience in this situation.

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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
I think it take lots of repeat exposure to have noticeable hearing loss.



No. A single round from a centerfire rifle or pistol causing measurable, permanent hearing loss.

Having said that, if you need to fire a gun- you need to fire a gun. Hearing damage is secondary. Suppressors should be on every rifle.

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Try the front sight wings at close range, might be good enough and fast enough.

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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
I think it take lots of repeat exposure to have noticeable hearing loss.

No. A single round from a centerfire rifle or pistol causing measurable, permanent hearing loss.

Having said that, if you need to fire a gun- you need to fire a gun. Hearing damage is secondary. Suppressors should be on every rifle.
+1

Anytime you are exposed to sound loud enough to make your ears ring, you have been exposed to a sound that caused permanent hearing damage.


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I keep a set of electronic muffs next to my short AR.

Cheaper than a silencer and no paper work.

As for the original question, red dots are faster at the distances being discussed.

Last edited by antelope_sniper; 03/28/20.

You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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both, have the Back Up Iron Sights in case the battery on the red dot is dead or you forget to turn it on, the red dot will be much easier to see in a dim or dark room or range than irons.

a HUGE advantage of red dot or scope over iron is that to shoot accurately, one must focus on the front sight, which is very very hard as you get over 40 yrs old, competition shooters (my area of expertise) often use special glasses to focus better, but you lose focus at distance. Dot and scope crosshairs are focused to appear at distance so if you have your street glasses on or don't need glasses you see both the target and the dot/crosshairs in focus. This is less of an issue in a close encounter defense situation (not my area of expertise).

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I have a hard time lining sights up when under stress, my focus is on the target, a bright red dot that magically appears on said target is a plus.

Red dots are the winner.

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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
I keep a set of electronic muffs next to my short AR.



+1

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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
I keep a set of electronic muffs next to my short AR.

Cheaper than a silencer and no paper work.

As for the original question, red dots are faster at the distances being discussed.

Has anyone scientifically verified this with a timer? I'm talking about max distances of like six yards.

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Originally Posted by MontanaMan
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
I keep a set of electronic muffs next to my short AR.



+1

MM

My electronic muffs are in the range bag on the floor within a few feet of my loaded AR.

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6 yards? Transition to your fixed bayonet!

How did we ever fight with a A1/A2? Guess I'm just old....

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Originally Posted by WTM45
6 yards? Transition to your fixed bayonet!

How did we ever fight with a A1/A2? Guess I'm just old....

LOL. That's what I'm talking about. Repelling boarders, i.e., someone's busting down the door, or in the house. I don't live in a mansion, so there are no grand vistas within the house. I bet no one would do any better with a red dot than with iron sights in a situation like that. But then, what do I know?

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Butt stroke, parry, thrust, slash, muzzle to face, Danners and Chippewas to shins in a Harley kickstart motion.
It ain't just the incoming fire they better worry about.

The whole rifle is a system. Be prepared to use it all. Optics are WAY after those basics.

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I just figured out that the maximum possible range within my home is 12 yards, which is assuming I'm opening my bedroom door with the AR in hand and see someone busting in through my laundry room's door which opens to the back porch.

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Originally Posted by jimmyp
With a weapon light the red dot if set properly works pretty good. The smaller red dots set as far forward are cool cause you can keep both eyes open looking around and in the area ahead.


Add a Laser / Light Combo for the WIN!


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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye

Has anyone scientifically verified this with a timer? I'm talking about max distances of like six yards.



Of course. There is no comparison. The issue isn’t in raw time side by side- though red dots are faster. The difference is during stress, low light, moving targets, etc. Point shooting is not an answer, guns aren’t magic you must destroy vital organs.

No organization whose primary function is to shoot at close range uses irons.

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Currently....

There was a day....

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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye

Has anyone scientifically verified this with a timer? I'm talking about max distances of like six yards.



Of course. There is no comparison. The issue isn’t in raw time side by side- though red dots are faster. The difference is during stress, low light, moving targets, etc. Point shooting is not an answer, guns aren’t magic you must destroy vital organs.

No organization whose primary function is to shoot at close range uses irons.

Okay, thanks.

I have thee ARs. One has an AimPoint Micro T2 (stays on all the time, battery changed out once a year), one has an Eotech, and one has iron sights only. I guess I will continue keeping the one with the AimPoint T2 loaded up and ready to go. I was thinking of switching to the one with the traditional A2 sights.

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Use the A2 as your shower gun...

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Inside 7 yards I prefer a Glock17 with a Streamlight TL on the rail. You can see the 300 lumen beam even in the daylight, and what is in the center of the beam is in the center of my group. Dont even search for the sights.

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Originally Posted by Limapapa
Inside 7 yards I prefer a Glock17 with a Streamlight TL on the rail. You can see the 300 lumen beam even in the daylight, and what is in the center of the beam is in the center of my group. Dont even search for the sights.


What if your battery is dead??? At OH Schitt distances, focus on the front sight. The bullet will go where it goes.

Last edited by chlinstructor; 03/28/20.

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Originally Posted by TWR
Use the A2 as your shower gun...

I actually keep a gun in the bathroom where I take showers. It's a Springfield TRP 1911. Never goes in the shower, but it's not far from it. It's in the towel pantry. But I've got loaded guns in various places. I'm pretty tricky that way. Also, unless I'm actually in the shower ( grin ), I always have one on me, even if I'm just wearing a bathrobe.

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Electronic muffs also have the advantage of sound amplification, not heard with normal hearing.

use a Glock 40 with Underwoods at 2300 fps. for nightstand. and Holosun dot, and light, electronic muffs. (Dot has auto on/off)

For serious stuff, a NFA AK-47 with forward Ultimak scout type mount and a tried and tested Tasco 42mm Propoint, which as pointed out amounts to a more visible front sight type setup. If the they are in the "circle" its a hit.

Also keep 4th of July smoke bombs and whistlers handy

Downstairs, 300 AR pistol with 40 rd. mags, 208s loaded to 1200fps, and Blackout powder (no flash, lower pressure) Tru-Glo, laser and light combo mounted top rail, laser can be used and visible thru Dot window, if either battery goes down. (Dot site has 4 reticles, depending on lighting.)

Pool house, Troy AR-15, 1x8 Eagle Vortex. 75 gr. HPBT

And for those that are trying to run away, a Sako TRG 22, 308, and Vortex Razor located for easy access on the roof.


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If your interested:

Hearing loss is frequency dependent. The smallest, shortest, hairs which are the weakest, are killed first. Called high frequency roll off. Most of the sound information folks hear is contained in the lower frequency of the sound spectrum, as it has more "information" in it. Computer compression programs such as MPS (cosine transform), change the information to contain the largest amount between the lower range of frequency range. The FBI uses Wavelet compression to reduce storage space in the same manner for fingerprints and keeping profiles of people.

The human hearing system uses a more refined but similar system to pick out sounds from the background. (Cocktail syndrome)

The point is--- folks don't notice high frequency loss as much as low frequency, so claims that one or two shots don't matter is false, as most sound are rarely above 12000 cps.

Unless you play the violin of course.

Or staying alive is more important than hearing your wife nag.


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Originally Posted by Formidilosus

No organization whose primary function is to shoot at close range uses irons.


And there it is in plain language.............................

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Originally Posted by MontanaMan
Originally Posted by Formidilosus

No organization whose primary function is to shoot at close range uses irons.


And there it is in plain language.............................

MM



And it's mirrored on the "shoot fast" competition circuit as well.


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Red dot is faster, makes a difference in competition, and makes sense for certain professionals.

One can still handily defend the house with irons.

I'd choose a decent light before a red dot.

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I was in a unit that had three silver star recipients from Iraq or Afghanistan, one person has two awards. All from protracted firefights with the bad guys.

All came home and put red dots and laser lights on their personal weapons, and all recommend them to anyone who asks.

Everyone says their training and superior personal weapons craft were the deciding factors. All sing the praises of being able to acquire and fire on targets who were still trying to get them in their sight picture.

No one who came back after actually being in close quarters combat says anything negative about red dots or lasers for CQB.

And these are GIs, and GIs talk [bleep] about anything that doesn’t work.


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Originally Posted by David_Walter
I was in a unit that had three silver star recipients from Iraq or Afghanistan, one person has two awards. All from protracted firefights with the bad guys.

All came home and put red dots and laser lights on their personal weapons, and all recommend them to anyone who asks.

Everyone says their training and superior personal weapons craft were the deciding factors. All sing the praises of being able to acquire and fire on targets who were still trying to get them in their sight picture.

No one who came back after actually being in close quarters combat says anything negative about red dots or lasers for CQB.

And these are GIs, and GIs talk [bleep] about anything that doesn’t work.

That sounds pretty weighty.

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Originally Posted by MontanaMarine

I'd choose a decent light before a red dot.


Actually, my "house" gun has both.....................

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In the house I prefer a G19 w/ a wml and a hand held light on a cord for opening doors and searching. Moving through my home is much more efficient w/ a handgun. Actually practicing w/ both and making an informed decision probably works best. The OP states that he has an Aimpoint on an AR but doesn't know what works best, odd. Firing a 16" barrel AR indoors w/out ear protection is stunning, and not very smart.


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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
I think it take lots of repeat exposure to have noticeable hearing loss.



No. A single round from a centerfire rifle or pistol causing measurable, permanent hearing loss.
.


Absolutely.

in my early-mid20's I touched an 06 in the back seat of a car iwthout hearing protection on. Instant damage in one ear. (the one facing the interior. The one facing the open door is "ok".

Noticeable from that point forward.


Originally Posted by Archerhunter

Quit giving in inch by inch then looking back to lament the mile behind ya and wonder how to preserve those few feet left in front of ya. They'll never stop until they're stopped. That's a fact.
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If all I had were irons, I would not worry one bit. Up close you will loose a fraction here and there IMHO. But for most cases the irons will suffice.

IF you are used to them and CONFIDENT in them. Which I am.

That said optics are on most of the vehicle/house guns. I love irons. But I like to see things clearly and all as in focus as I can and not have aps and sight wings and such blocking things out.

Have a Burris 322 or whatever that I just acquired. Its been REALLY good on pigs lately. Much better than irons would be but I have not had close pigs lately either, usually say 75 to about 135 or so.


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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye

Has anyone scientifically verified this with a timer? I'm talking about max distances of like six yards.



Of course. There is no comparison. The issue isn’t in raw time side by side- though red dots are faster. The difference is during stress, low light, moving targets, etc. Point shooting is not an answer, guns aren’t magic you must destroy vital organs.

No organization whose primary function is to shoot at close range uses irons.


Not disagreeing, but would add that shotgunning M4s can enough accuracy for room distances, although not trained as much since RDs became primaries. Also, some LPVs seem as fast as RDs, to me. All three are faster than irons, especially in low light.

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Red dot for me. Inside of 10 yards if the bad guy is in the middle of the field of view of the red dot sight it’s most likely a hit.


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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye

Has anyone scientifically verified this with a timer? I'm talking about max distances of like six yards.



Of course. There is no comparison. The issue isn’t in raw time side by side- though red dots are faster. The difference is during stress, low light, moving targets, etc. Point shooting is not an answer, guns aren’t magic you must destroy vital organs.

No organization whose primary function is to shoot at close range uses irons.




Formudulous, What is the current level of deployment of the EOTech line of weapon sights in your realm and your opinion and experience using them? Thanks.


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the electronic hearing protection can't help that much, you never see it used in the TV shows. A good pistol is what you want these days cause even if the boarders are wearing body armor you could just shoot the guns out of their hands, seen that on tv too.


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I've read that body armor makes a head shot the go to on any stationary target.


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Originally Posted by navlav8r
Red dot for me. Inside of 10 yards if the bad guy is in the middle of the field of view of the red dot sight it’s most likely a hit.

Pretty much same with irons, if you can see the blur of the iron on the target IE sight base/wings and all pull the trigger...


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Originally Posted by chlinstructor
Originally Posted by Limapapa
Inside 7 yards I prefer a Glock17 with a Streamlight TL on the rail. You can see the 300 lumen beam even in the daylight, and what is in the center of the beam is in the center of my group. Dont even search for the sights.


What if your battery is dead??? At OH Schitt distances, focus on the front sight. The bullet will go where it goes.



I had to take sights completely off a 22 once for Carolyn to understand and learn where sights become important and where you just need to be pointing and pulling the trigger. That you were wasting time aiming and squeezing so to speak.

Personally I think that generally adrenalin takes over there.. if its close and fast and closing you are going to start shooting faster and more of point rather than aim.


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@rost495,

Tell me how you see irons in the dark?


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Originally Posted by rost495
Originally Posted by chlinstructor
Originally Posted by Limapapa
Inside 7 yards I prefer a Glock17 with a Streamlight TL on the rail. You can see the 300 lumen beam even in the daylight, and what is in the center of the beam is in the center of my group. Dont even search for the sights.


What if your battery is dead??? At OH Schitt distances, focus on the front sight. The bullet will go where it goes.



I had to take sights completely off a 22 once for Carolyn to understand and learn where sights become important and where you just need to be pointing and pulling the trigger. That you were wasting time aiming and squeezing so to speak.

Personally I think that generally adrenalin takes over there.. if its close and fast and closing you are going to start shooting faster and more of point rather than aim.


rost's point is well taken,, case in point is shotgun action shooting.


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Not rost but will state that if you can't see your sights then positive target ID will be questionable, yet still essential. Use of a weapon in low light conditions is an essential skill and must be practiced. There are a number of methodologies demonstrated on You Tube, some actually provide good info. It gets dark every day and you can prepare and practice w/ dryfire suing a wml, handheld light or,ideally both,s in your own dwelling which is your 1st priority location.

The old failure drill, 2 to the chest and 1 to the head, as a practiced response is very useful if your opponent wears armor or not. Practice, practice, practice.


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Originally Posted by David_Walter
@rost495,

Tell me how you see irons in the dark?



same way you can see the target in the dark---- you cant.


discussion has already assumed target identification to be a bad guy.

if target not identified because of light conditions, it doesn't matter either way.


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It helps to use a suppressor. That helps to limit waking up those asleep and the neighbors. Waking up fewer folks, it may give you the option to dial 911 or get the back hoe out of the shop.


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Originally Posted by David_Walter
@rost495,

Tell me how you see irons in the dark?


There are tritium options for AR irons. but a WML will silhouette regular iron sights. Granted, that isn't 'dark' anymore.

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Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
Originally Posted by David_Walter
@rost495,

Tell me how you see irons in the dark?


There are tritium options for AR irons. but a WML will silhouette regular iron sights. Granted, that isn't 'dark' anymore.


yep weapon mounted light will make irons usable and scopes too. Used my headlight laid against the forearm of 22 for years coon hunting.

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Originally Posted by Lennie
It helps to use a suppressor. That helps to limit waking up those asleep and the neighbors. Waking up fewer folks, it may give you the option to dial 911 or get the back hoe out of the shop.

grin

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EO-Tech 556 NV compatible is what all my house guns wear.


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Originally Posted by gunner500
EO-Tech 556 NV compatible is what all my house guns wear.




I have one Eotech 552.A65 NV compatible.


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Originally Posted by gunner500
EO-Tech 556 NV compatible is what all my house guns wear.

Unless I'm mistaken, EOTechs, unlike Aimponts, cannot be left on. Or has that changed for newer models of the EOTech?

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They shut off after 4 or 8 hours depending on which button you push. I prefer the Aimpoint for battery life but it's not that hard to push a button before we put on our electronic ear pro, bullet proof vest and all...

I have one of the newer versions and it has zero battery drain like some of the older ones did and the reticle is a better fit for my bad eyes. This one has performed as good as any of my Aimpoints ever did except for leaving it always on but I'll trade the accuracy I can get out of the EOTech over the Aimpoint any day.

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Originally Posted by local_dirt
Originally Posted by gunner500
EO-Tech 556 NV compatible is what all my house guns wear.




I have one Eotech 552.A65 NV compatible.



I like 'em LD, and what TWR said TRH, both eyes open shooting is king, plus, with a 36 yard zero in 5.56/223, 300 yard steel is also cake.


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Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by local_dirt
Originally Posted by gunner500
EO-Tech 556 NV compatible is what all my house guns wear.




I have one Eotech 552.A65 NV compatible.



I like 'em LD, and what TWR said TRH, both eyes open shooting is king, plus, with a 36 yard zero in 5.56/223, 300 yard steel is also cake.


36 yards zero works out to a 200 yards zero with M193 out of a 20" barrel. When I was in, we used the 25 yard zero, with was close to a 250 yard zero.


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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by local_dirt
Originally Posted by gunner500
EO-Tech 556 NV compatible is what all my house guns wear.




I have one Eotech 552.A65 NV compatible.



I like 'em LD, and what TWR said TRH, both eyes open shooting is king, plus, with a 36 yard zero in 5.56/223, 300 yard steel is also cake.


36 yards zero works out to a 200 yards zero with M193 out of a 20" barrel. When I was in, we used the 25 yard zero, with was close to a 250 yard zero.


Yes, I hold at 12 o'clock on 300 yard steel, bullet smacks 12-15 inches low, plenty close enough for crackhead work ; ]


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Originally Posted by David_Walter
@rost495,

Tell me how you see irons in the dark?

When you turn the light on the target sights are easy to see. As another noted if I can't see the target then I can't see my sights. IF I can see my sights but not the target in turn....

I may not have the best setup, but I suspect I have enough rounds down range and a knowledge enough of the AR that I would do OK in most any house issue.

I'm not talking about "competing" against trained forces... if I had to do that I'd do it from a LONG way off one at a time if I had the choice, that might be about the only advantage I used to hold.


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I hate to post this but please understand, this is IMI M193 ammo out of a basically stock Colt 6720 chrome lined pencil barrel and all. 5 shots standing on my hind legs, 5 shots sitting with one elbow on one knee cause I can't get both elbows anchored and 5 shots prone using a 40 round MagPul mag as a monopod. It's a standard USPSA silhouette tagrget at 200 yards with said EOTech zeroed at 200 yards.
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15 out of 15, with 8 in the A zone.

All things considered, not as horrible as you think.

Do I sense a new challenge thread coming on?

200 yards, Zero magnification, three position, with factory ball ammo?


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Originally Posted by David_Walter
I've read that body armor makes a head shot the go to on any stationary target.

I wonder would 99% of the body armor stand up to the 5.56?


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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
15 out of 15, with 8 in the A zone.

All things considered, not as horrible as you think.

Do I sense a new challenge thread coming on?

200 yards, Zero magnification, three position, with factory ball ammo?


We set a par time of 60 seconds too, LOL, it takes me almost 15 seconds to get into the sitting position and another 10 seconds to go from setting to prone. Just a drill we do now and then to see what we can do. I will say the 40 round mag is much easier to use as a monopod than a 30.

But it’s embarrassing compared to what the real shooters do with irons and all, we’re just having fun.

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I have an AR and am pretty proficient with it, and like it for certain things. Having said that, the OP seemed to be asking about shooting in a house. I have a 12 gauge with a glow sight. Pretty simple and effective for that set up. 8 rounds of 4 buck.Maybe better than an AR.

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Originally Posted by atse
Maybe better than an AR.


How so?


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Originally Posted by jimmyp
Originally Posted by David_Walter
I've read that body armor makes a head shot the go to on any stationary target.

I wonder would 99% of the body armor stand up to the 5.56?

Not Level IIIA soft. You need plates or this.

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Originally Posted by TWR
I hate to post this but please understand, this is IMI M193 ammo out of a basically stock Colt 6720 chrome lined pencil barrel and all. 5 shots standing on my hind legs, 5 shots sitting with one elbow on one knee cause I can't get both elbows anchored and 5 shots prone using a 40 round MagPul mag as a monopod. It's a standard USPSA silhouette tagrget at 200 yards with said EOTech zeroed at 200 yards.
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Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by local_dirt
Originally Posted by gunner500
EO-Tech 556 NV compatible is what all my house guns wear.




I have one Eotech 552.A65 NV compatible.



I like 'em LD, and what TWR said TRH, both eyes open shooting is king, plus, with a 36 yard zero in 5.56/223, 300 yard steel is also cake.


36 yards zero works out to a 200 yards zero with M193 out of a 20" barrel. When I was in, we used the 25 yard zero, with was close to a 250 yard zero.


Yes, I hold at 12 o'clock on 300 yard steel, bullet smacks 12-15 inches low, plenty close enough for crackhead work ; ]




gunner, I have never had a problem with mine. They had an offer a couple years ago to send them back for a full refund. I didn't.

I paid $347 for it 14 years ago BNIB off ebay. Still running fine.


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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Originally Posted by atse
Maybe better than an AR.


How so?

A pattern out of a modified choke at 10' to 30 or 40' with 4 buck ( or bb s) leaves a little more room for error and still let's the shooter be successful in a high stress situation. A shot down the hallway will likely clear it. At about 25' I get about a 2.5' pattern with 4 buck. 27 pellets.

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Originally Posted by atse
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Originally Posted by atse
Maybe better than an AR.


How so?

A pattern out of a modified choke at 10' to 30 or 40' with 4 buck ( or bb s) leaves a little more room for error and still let's the shooter be successful in a high stress situation. A shot down the hallway will likely clear it. At about 25' I get about a 2.5' pattern with 4 buck. 27 pellets.


Two and a half foot pattern at 8 yards?

I don't think so:

Shooting starts just short of the 5 minute mark:



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As Clint said, shoot it to see the pattern.

I'm sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo tired of people telling me about shotguns they've never shot for pattern.

And how the little woman doesn't need to shoot it. She'll know what to do in an "emergency" and how it makes a 2 foot hole in people.

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We used #4 buckshot in our shotguns at the embassies. Patterns were roughly 1" per yard. 10" at 10 yards, 15" at 15 yards, etc. 870's with cylinder bores.

The new Flite-Control and Versa-Tite wads are a game changer. Definitely needs to be patterned so you know what you are working with.

My cylinder bore 870 with the Hornady Critical Defense 00 Buck (8 pellets 1600 fps) patterns about 6" at 20 yards. That's with the Versa-Tite wad, same thing as Flite-Control I believe.

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Originally Posted by TWR
I hate to post this but please understand, this is IMI M193 ammo out of a basically stock Colt 6720 chrome lined pencil barrel and all. 5 shots standing on my hind legs, 5 shots sitting with one elbow on one knee cause I can't get both elbows anchored and 5 shots prone using a 40 round MagPul mag as a monopod. It's a standard USPSA silhouette tagrget at 200 yards with said EOTech zeroed at 200 yards.
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That's not horrid. All on target at 200 yards.

I'm guessing the offhand were the low shots?

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Originally Posted by local_dirt
Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by local_dirt
Originally Posted by gunner500
EO-Tech 556 NV compatible is what all my house guns wear.




I have one Eotech 552.A65 NV compatible.



I like 'em LD, and what TWR said TRH, both eyes open shooting is king, plus, with a 36 yard zero in 5.56/223, 300 yard steel is also cake.


36 yards zero works out to a 200 yards zero with M193 out of a 20" barrel. When I was in, we used the 25 yard zero, with was close to a 250 yard zero.


Yes, I hold at 12 o'clock on 300 yard steel, bullet smacks 12-15 inches low, plenty close enough for crackhead work ; ]




gunner, I have never had a problem with mine. They had an offer a couple years ago to send them back for a full refund. I didn't.

I paid $347 for it 14 years ago BNIB off ebay. Still running fine.


10-4 LD, same/same here, I talked then refused to send mine in to warranty/refund guy too, never had a problem with any of them, it's not like they're a NightForce scope type aiming device, batt life and reticle clarity for what they are has been fine too.


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Yes, aim those damn scatterguns, my 11 shot 870 12ga has a little glowing green bead looking back at me, 20 pellets of #1 copper plated buck in a 2-3/4ths hull will leave a mark.


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Originally Posted by David_Walter
As Clint said, shoot it to see the pattern.

I'm sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo tired of people telling me about shotguns they've never shot for pattern.

And how the little woman doesn't need to shoot it. She'll know what to do in an "emergency" and how it makes a 2 foot hole in people.

I have patterned my shotgun at 10 and 20 yds. At 10 yd s with rem. 4 buck the bulk of the pattern in 12" with 2 or 3 pellets 5 to 6" high, and a couple pellets about the same low, hence my number of 2 .5' pattern. Maybe I should have been more specific.

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Originally Posted by atse
Originally Posted by David_Walter
As Clint said, shoot it to see the pattern.

I'm sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo tired of people telling me about shotguns they've never shot for pattern.

And how the little woman doesn't need to shoot it. She'll know what to do in an "emergency" and how it makes a 2 foot hole in people.

I have patterned my shotgun at 10 and 20 yds. At 10 yd s with rem. 4 buck the bulk of the pattern in 12" with 2 or 3 pellets 5 to 6" high, and a couple pellets about the same low, hence my number of 2 .5' pattern. Maybe I should have been more specific.


Quote
At about 25' I get about a 2.5' pattern with 4 buck. 27 pellets.


Did you mean to say you get a 30 inch pattern at 25 Yards?

How big is your house that you can take 25 yard shots going room to room?


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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by atse
Originally Posted by David_Walter
As Clint said, shoot it to see the pattern.

I'm sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo tired of people telling me about shotguns they've never shot for pattern.

And how the little woman doesn't need to shoot it. She'll know what to do in an "emergency" and how it makes a 2 foot hole in people.

I have patterned my shotgun at 10 and 20 yds. At 10 yd s with rem. 4 buck the bulk of the pattern in 12" with 2 or 3 pellets 5 to 6" high, and a couple pellets about the same low, hence my number of 2 .5' pattern. Maybe I should have been more specific.


Quote
At about 25' I get about a 2.5' pattern with 4 buck. 27 pellets.


Did you mean to say you get a 30 inch pattern at 25 Yards?

How big is your house that you can take 25 yard shots going room to room?


Sorry for the typo. Meant 25 yds. The last time I patterned it at 20 yds , the majority of the pattern was in an 18 inch circle, with 2 or 3 pellets about 4" higher, and a couple of pelllets lower. Federal shells at 2 5 yds have a slightly tighter pattern, but not much. Neither shells have flight control wads, that is why the " fliers" I think. From my bedroom door to the front door is 38', which doesn't let the pattern open up alot, but would still be hard on someone in the hallway.

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MM, if I remember right, I thought the low shots were from sitting position. I actually didn't go check em till all shots were fired but I told my buddy I was pretty sure I kept dropping off the target from sitting position. Something about getting as comfortable as you can and knowing you're not on target but shooting anyway cause you know it's not gonna get any better...

Prone however was pretty solid when I switched to a 40 round mag for the extra height. Standing was just pressing the trigger as the dot started across the target. I have lot's of work to do.

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Originally Posted by TWR
MM, if I remember right, I thought the low shots were from sitting position. I actually didn't go check em till all shots were fired but I told my buddy I was pretty sure I kept dropping off the target from sitting position. Something about getting as comfortable as you can and knowing you're not on target but shooting anyway cause you know it's not gonna get any better...

Prone however was pretty solid when I switched to a 40 round mag for the extra height. Standing was just pressing the trigger as the dot started across the target. I have lot's of work to do.


I hear ya. Offhand at 200 yards was always where I dropped most points on the USMC rifle requal range, where distances were 200, 300, and 500 yards.

Just like you, I would try to let the round fly as the front sight was crossing the black of the target.

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If your wife or child is being used as a shield and all you can see is the BGs head they may appreciate your being able to keep all shots w/in 6" at any distance available in your house. We don't get to dictate the circumstances. Just a thought to confuse the issue, standards exist for a reason.


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Originally Posted by TWR
MM, if I remember right, I thought the low shots were from sitting position. I actually didn't go check em till all shots were fired but I told my buddy I was pretty sure I kept dropping off the target from sitting position. Something about getting as comfortable as you can and knowing you're not on target but shooting anyway cause you know it's not gonna get any better...

Prone however was pretty solid when I switched to a 40 round mag for the extra height. Standing was just pressing the trigger as the dot started across the target. I have lot's of work to do.
LOL! Copy that! Those light little guns are harder to hit with, no doubt about it.


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Originally Posted by atse
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Originally Posted by atse
Maybe better than an AR.


How so?

A pattern out of a modified choke at 10' to 30 or 40' with 4 buck ( or bb s) leaves a little more room for error and still let's the shooter be successful in a high stress situation. A shot down the hallway will likely clear it. At about 25' I get about a 2.5' pattern with 4 buck. 27 pellets.


I wonder if some people are so familiar with an AR that they might be able to hit with it in a high stress situation? I wonder if an AR set up with a red dot and a flashlight might be very fast in target acquisition and firing a round? I guess if a man uses his shotgun more than his AR he should use a shotgun, and vice versa. Only thing I tend to forget is the round is going to land about 3.5 inches low at 10 feet.

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Yessir widows peak hold with a dot up close.


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Originally Posted by jimmyp
Originally Posted by atse
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Originally Posted by atse
Maybe better than an AR.


How so?

A pattern out of a modified choke at 10' to 30 or 40' with 4 buck ( or bb s) leaves a little more room for error and still let's the shooter be successful in a high stress situation. A shot down the hallway will likely clear it. At about 25' I get about a 2.5' pattern with 4 buck. 27 pellets.


I wonder if some people are so familiar with an AR that they might be able to hit with it in a high stress situation? I wonder if an AR set up with a red dot and a flashlight might be very fast in target acquisition and firing a round? I guess if a man uses his shotgun more than his AR he should use a shotgun, and vice versa. Only thing I tend to forget is the round is going to land about 3.5 inches low at 10 feet.

I don't think there is a wrong answer here. You just need to be proficient with what you choose to use.

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Originally Posted by atse
Originally Posted by jimmyp
Originally Posted by atse
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Originally Posted by atse
Maybe better than an AR.


How so?

A pattern out of a modified choke at 10' to 30 or 40' with 4 buck ( or bb s) leaves a little more room for error and still let's the shooter be successful in a high stress situation. A shot down the hallway will likely clear it. At about 25' I get about a 2.5' pattern with 4 buck. 27 pellets.


I wonder if some people are so familiar with an AR that they might be able to hit with it in a high stress situation? I wonder if an AR set up with a red dot and a flashlight might be very fast in target acquisition and firing a round? I guess if a man uses his shotgun more than his AR he should use a shotgun, and vice versa. Only thing I tend to forget is the round is going to land about 3.5 inches low at 10 feet.

I don't think there is a wrong answer here. You just need to be proficient with what you choose to use.



That is the real world bottom line. Many new/casual users don't understand shotgun patterns or offset w/ a red dot sight. Watching guys w/ ARs shooting the crap out of barricades in classes is a good lesson. This stuff isn't rocket science but actually proving it through practice is the only answer.


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25 feet my pattern with buckshot is about like an 8 inch paper plate. If it was almost 3 feet wide it could be a useful swarm.

What ammo( I know 4 buck) and what choke to get that wide a pattern at 8 steps. Heck the wads are dang near still with the shot at that range.

And at 10 feet, if you hit 3 inches low and don't kill, you have other problems.


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This thread demonstrates everything I hate about shotguns.

First, we hear that a shotgun will "clear a hall". Well, at my house the hall is about 36" wide. Then we hear the shotgun pattern is actually 12" wide. That doesn't clear a hall. That doesn't even clear half a hall. That clears 2/3 of 1/2 of a hall.

So, you've gotta aim. And "not aiming" is the big benefit that everyone raves about with shotguns. Because they don't know what they're talking about.




If I'm gonna aim, I'm gonna aim the gun that's lighter, that's faster to shoot for follow up shots, that holds more ammunition, and that does all of that with nearly no recoil.


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Originally Posted by gunner500
Yes, aim those damn scatterguns, my 11 shot 870 12ga has a little glowing green bead looking back at me, 20 pellets of #1 copper plated buck in a 2-3/4ths hull will leave a mark.



Realizing fully this in an AR forum, but, this thread and a few posts therein caused me to go grab a cardboard box and my 12ga 870 house gun, I stepped off the absolute longest ranges I could take inside the house, one was 18 yards, the other 22 yards, so I split the difference and set the box at 20 yards.

The pattern from one shot of Winchester X12C1B put all 20 of the hardened copper plated #1 buckshot pellets in about a 10x12 inch pattern on the box, I have the modified choke tube in the shotgun for #1 buck, so damn right, we need to aim those shotguns too, a fun little back porch session this morning.

Hope some here can find the info useful. smile


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FWIW, those round shotgun pellets deflect and ricochet a HELLUVA lot more than rifle and even handgun rounds, inside structures. Nothing ‘wrong’ with a shotgun in CQ, but it takes at least as much consideration and training to be effective as any other choice....not necessarily less.

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Each buckshot pellet shares a reduced portion of the entire load's energy.
Rapid energy loss occurs through ejecta and poor coefficients.
Stopping power is a legitimate concern, as multiple pellet hits IS a requirement to achieve fast stops.
Aim is a must, and there must be control of the entire payload through proper choke/load combination. Testing.

Sectional density and available energy of a soft lead round ball/plated shot compared to a well designed rifle bullet, big differences.
Dependable, powerful results on target. Rifle.

Inside the house, I want the fight stopped as fast as possible.

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Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
We used #4 buckshot in our shotguns at the embassies. Patterns were roughly 1" per yard. 10" at 10 yards, 15" at 15 yards, etc. 870's with cylinder bores.

The new Flite-Control and Versa-Tite wads are a game changer. Definitely needs to be patterned so you know what you are working with.

My cylinder bore 870 with the Hornady Critical Defense 00 Buck (8 pellets 1600 fps) patterns about 6" at 20 yards. That's with the Versa-Tite wad, same thing as Flite-Control I believe.


Exactly. 1" per yard, or 5 inches at 5 yards. Average size room in a house is 5-10 yards, i.e. 15-30 feet. Pattern is only 10" wide at 30 feet. Easy to miss if you are not aiming or proficient. May as well have a pistol with a MWL. Street sweepers are a complete misnomer inside a house.

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Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
Originally Posted by TWR
MM, if I remember right, I thought the low shots were from sitting position. I actually didn't go check em till all shots were fired but I told my buddy I was pretty sure I kept dropping off the target from sitting position. Something about getting as comfortable as you can and knowing you're not on target but shooting anyway cause you know it's not gonna get any better...

Prone however was pretty solid when I switched to a 40 round mag for the extra height. Standing was just pressing the trigger as the dot started across the target. I have lot's of work to do.


I hear ya. Offhand at 200 yards was always where I dropped most points on the USMC rifle requal range, where distances were 200, 300, and 500 yards.

Just like you, I would try to let the round fly as the front sight was crossing the black of the target.

Actually a multi time national champion in high-power that I've only managed to beat once in my life, shoots offhand just like that. On the move. A controlled move, and you just learn the timing, pull here so by the time brain, finger, and bullet hits target its in the middle. Only thing you have to know there is only pull going in, NEVER pull once in or going out... lol.

There are so many variations to sitting and kneeling, folks get tied up trying to do it "right". Learn to make the position work for YOU... however you hold and work it out, as long as it works, throw the learning books out the window on that one.


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Originally Posted by local_dirt

Formudulous, What is the current level of deployment of the EOTech line of weapon sights in your realm and your opinion and experience using them? Thanks.



They’re an issued red dot. They are better than they were before the recall but they still have issues. People like them for a variety of beliefs, but very few for the niche benefits they bring.

Red dots on non play toys should be Aimpoints. Though except for specific uses, nearly every place that can is using 1-6x or 1-8x LPV’s.

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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Originally Posted by local_dirt

Formudulous, What is the current level of deployment of the EOTech line of weapon sights in your realm and your opinion and experience using them? Thanks.



They’re an issued red dot. They are better than they were before the recall but they still have issues. People like them for a variety of beliefs, but very few for the niche benefits they bring.

Red dots on non play toys should be Aimpoints. Though except for specific uses, nearly every place that can is using 1-6x or 1-8x LPV’s.


In that 1-6x/1-8x space is Nightforce still your preference?


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And the SWFA 1-6?


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The NF 1-8’s are without equal, with the 1-6x SWFA a very solid choice.

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What is the right aimpoint for someone who is just getting into this platform?


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PRO is a good place to start and not break the bank.

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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
This thread demonstrates everything I hate about shotguns.

First, we hear that a shotgun will "clear a hall". Well, at my house the hall is about 36" wide. Then we hear the shotgun pattern is actually 12" wide. That doesn't clear a hall. That doesn't even clear half a hall. That clears 2/3 of 1/2 of a hall.

So, you've gotta aim. And "not aiming" is the big benefit that everyone raves about with shotguns. Because they don't know what they're talking about.




If I'm gonna aim, I'm gonna aim the gun that's lighter, that's faster to shoot for follow up shots, that holds more ammunition, and that does all of that with nearly no recoil.


grinThe Fudd force is strong in the pump shotgun group, ingrained in their membrane the deadly racking sound of the pump shotgun making the bad guy piss himself on your carpet right before a "swarm" of room clearing buckshot fills the air. The fly in the ointment is that probably half of them are so content in their knowledge that they don't ever have to ever practice with the gun that it would take 10 seconds just to remember how to get the safety off. grin


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The 11 shot pump 870 here is on the way back to the five shot A5, and then to the four speedloaders and 6 in a 357 Mag Trooper, that's "after" all the AR's, REPR's and handguns have been exhausted, the dogs are all dead, at that point not a GD thing is going to matter, the fu-king house will be on fire and falling down around me all the while the fancy indoor/outdoor security cameras are firing off video to Buds emails and cellphones.

Should make a hell of a movie for someone, not a damn thing wrong with using shotguns as part of ones brace of wares.


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I am damn safe in saying that you are not the average pump shotgun owner. grin


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Yes, I remember where the safety is! laugh


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Originally Posted by jimmyp
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
This thread demonstrates everything I hate about shotguns.

First, we hear that a shotgun will "clear a hall". Well, at my house the hall is about 36" wide. Then we hear the shotgun pattern is actually 12" wide. That doesn't clear a hall. That doesn't even clear half a hall. That clears 2/3 of 1/2 of a hall.

So, you've gotta aim. And "not aiming" is the big benefit that everyone raves about with shotguns. Because they don't know what they're talking about.


If I'm gonna aim, I'm gonna aim the gun that's lighter, that's faster to shoot for follow up shots, that holds more ammunition, and that does all of that with nearly no recoil.


grinThe Fudd force is strong in the pump shotgun group, ingrained in their membrane the deadly racking sound of the pump shotgun making the bad guy piss himself on your carpet right before a "swarm" of room clearing buckshot fills the air. The fly in the ointment is that probably half of them are so content in their knowledge that they don't ever have to ever practice with the gun that it would take 10 seconds just to remember how to get the safety off. grin



That reminds me of a story of one of my "Fudd" uncles.

He would laugh at me for "wasting ammo" when i practiced, and jabbered about how guns needed to be locked in a safe.

One day a skunk wanders onto his property, so he headed out to his shop and open his safe, screws up the combination the first couple of times, so he can get out his unloaded shot gun. Grabs some shells to go looking for the skunk.

He goes to load the shot gun, but the sell keep falling out because he's trying to stick 20ga shells in a 12 gauge tube. Back to a different box of shells, finally gets it loaded, find the skunk and.........click.

Gun wouldn't not go off, and the skunk got away.

So much for the always ready Fudd Brigade.

Last edited by antelope_sniper; 04/04/20.

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Slo Joe is a shotgun guy. grin


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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
This thread demonstrates everything I hate about shotguns.

First, we hear that a shotgun will "clear a hall". Well, at my house the hall is about 36" wide. Then we hear the shotgun pattern is actually 12" wide. That doesn't clear a hall. That doesn't even clear half a hall. That clears 2/3 of 1/2 of a hall.

So, you've gotta aim. And "not aiming" is the big benefit that everyone raves about with shotguns. Because they don't know what they're talking about.




If I'm gonna aim, I'm gonna aim the gun that's lighter, that's faster to shoot for follow up shots, that holds more ammunition, and that does all of that with nearly no recoil.


Totally agree. Running a shotgun isn’t this fool-proof, guaranteed thing people make it out to be. Especially pumps. I can’t remember where I saw the statistics, but one-shot stops were basically equal between shotguns and rifles.

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As far as irons vs red dots, I’ll say this: I will always support learning basic marksmanship with irons. But, when it comes to being able to quickly and accurately utilize a rifle (or even a pistol for that matter), its hard to beat a good RDS. I make hits with a pistol with an RDS that I would have never made before.

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Originally Posted by gunner500
The 11 shot pump 870 here is on the way back to the five shot A5, and then to the four speedloaders and 6 in a 357 Mag Trooper, that's "after" all the AR's, REPR's and handguns have been exhausted, the dogs are all dead, at that point not a GD thing is going to matter, the fu-king house will be on fire and falling down around me all the while the fancy indoor/outdoor security cameras are firing off video to Buds emails and cellphones.

Should make a hell of a movie for someone, not a damn thing wrong with using shotguns as part of ones brace of wares.

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Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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I’ll take a RDS these days on anything they can be attached to. I know I make better and faster hits with them than with irons. Low powered scopes with good illum are pretty quick as well.


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Semi auto Shotgun with a light, red dot sight, would be cool.


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The last thing I want on a shotgun is sights, including a red dot. A light is useful though.

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Originally Posted by TWR
The last thing I want on a shotgun is sights, including a red dot. A light is useful though.



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Originally Posted by Gooch_McGrundle
As far as irons vs red dots, I’ll say this: I will always support learning basic marksmanship with irons. But, when it comes to being able to quickly and accurately utilize a rifle (or even a pistol for that matter), its hard to beat a good RDS. I make hits with a pistol with an RDS that I would have never made before.

anything that puts it all on the same focal plane and doesn't block target vision helps speed, and accuracy. A fairly simple concept to understand.


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Originally Posted by beretzs
I’ll take a RDS these days on anything they can be attached to. I know I make better and faster hits with them than with irons. Low powered scopes with good illum are pretty quick as well.


Any of you guys used a low powered scope with illuminated dot at close ranges by snapping the front scope cover down and shooting with both eyes open? I think it is called Occluded shooting?


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Tried that with an Aimpoint, just to see how it worked.

It worked fine at close range, didn’t try it past 25 yards.

In theory, should work at any distance, if your non-dominant eye is of the same quality as your dominant eye.


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Originally Posted by MOGC
Originally Posted by beretzs
I’ll take a RDS these days on anything they can be attached to. I know I make better and faster hits with them than with irons. Low powered scopes with good illum are pretty quick as well.


Any of you guys used a low powered scope with illuminated dot at close ranges by snapping the front scope cover down and shooting with both eyes open? I think it is called Occluded shooting?


I've done some practice with it using a 5X prism at 10 yards or less. Works pretty well. Both eyes open, looking at target, bright red horseshoe reticle appears in view.

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I have a 1.5x4 scope with illuminated dot on my AR. The scope has black lens covers. With the front cover down and both eyes open it seems as fast and accurate as a RDS out to about 20 yards. Beyond that I can pop that cover up and use the scope as it is normally used. Seems pretty darned versatile.


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This scope is a 1-8.5 FFP Bushnell Elite. So far I like it. At 1X on illumination it works great for up close, the 8.5X is real nice with a center dot and a mil based reticle. Nice turrets on it and it feels rugged so far. Its heavy but if it works well I am okay with the capability. Time will tell if it's a POS but it feels about the same as the LRHS in construction and build.

The Upside "U" worked pretty slick on 1X for quicker shooting. I shoot both eyes open anytime I shoot anyhow, so I tend to like to have some magnification if I can have it as well.


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Hmm. I shoot with both eyes open to start with. closing an eye leads to other vision issues in match shooting. I guess it just carries over from competition to everything I shoot


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I shoot with both eyes open too but this occluded shooting where you close the cover of the scope or red dot is to prove a point, you don't need to look through the optic to hit at least up close. The Binden aiming concept Trijicon pushes is about the same thing.

I've shot my VX6 1-6 with the cover closed and the fire dot on just like a red dot up close but if you get past 20 yards or so, you'll do much better with the cover open and using the Binden Aiming Concept. The bright dot is the key, it automatically superimposes itself on what you're looking at.

In the dark my Accupower 1-4's work about the same but in daylight, you begin to understand the importance of a daylight bright dot.

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Originally Posted by TWR
The last thing I want on a shotgun is sights, including a red dot. A light is useful though.


can you explain this further? I'm trying to wrap my head around not aiming.

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Originally Posted by TWR
I shoot with both eyes open too but this occluded shooting where you close the cover of the scope or red dot is to prove a point, you don't need to look through the optic to hit at least up close. The Binden aiming concept Trijicon pushes is about the same thing.

I've shot my VX6 1-6 with the cover closed and the fire dot on just like a red dot up close but if you get past 20 yards or so, you'll do much better with the cover open and using the Binden Aiming Concept. The bright dot is the key, it automatically superimposes itself on what you're looking at.

In the dark my Accupower 1-4's work about the same but in daylight, you begin to understand the importance of a daylight bright dot.


Fairly sure that I could have both caps closed and no dot and do ok to about 20. Just superimpose the black scope objective on the target.

Finally took. both front and rear sight off a ruger 22, to show my wife that up close aim and squeeze, while admirable and all and which should let training take over, as the bear gets closer you need to do more if it hasn't stopped yet. Get more lead in the air so to speak, now is NOT the time to aim and squeeze.. thats why you have a 15 round mag plus 1 in the chamber on your 10mm....


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Originally Posted by avonac
Originally Posted by TWR
The last thing I want on a shotgun is sights, including a red dot. A light is useful though.


can you explain this further? I'm trying to wrap my head around not aiming.


Shotguns either fit you or they don't. Aiming is different as there are no sights to align to shoot a flying bird, why would you need them to shoot an intruder?

I have a Benelli M1 with a 21" barrel, just a vent rib and bead. I shoot it just fine whether it's quail, dove, clays or coyotes. Even with my Turkey choke I've killed Turkey's at less than 10 yards.

But I once thought that an M2 Tactical would be so much better so I bought one and after trying to aim the ghost ring sights, it became apparent that I was much slower and I eventually hated that gun. Sold it to another guy who just had to have one. Now if I was shooting slugs, it might be different but even when I was a kid I shot a Remington Mohawk 48 with slugs on an armadillo safari and faired just fine without sights.

A red dot could be useful to some I guess but I don't see the need.

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Spot on about a shotgun having to fit. It has to shoot where you look. And thats basically fit.

I suck at birds but while thats true, I do hit a few now and then. The longer its been since competitive rifle, the better I am. I NEVER see the bead on the end of a shotgun. I"m sure its there. In fact I know it is. But I don't ever recall seeing it....


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I got that Mohawk 48 when I was 12 or maybe 13 and up until the late 90's I hunted quail every chance I got, had some good dogs to hunt over too. I wish we still had the birds but they have died off and I don't even know anyone with a decent dog anymore...

Anyway, I never see the bead either. My uncle used to say, if you're looking for that blasted bead, you're gonna miss! He was right.

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there’s a distinct difference in how we shoot flying birds and how we shoot someone who is trying kill you, there is little stress and zero penalties for missing. On the other hand, engaging a person who is trying to hurt you or your family is a high stress event and the penalty for missing can be deadly. Combine that with the fact that the human body is not always that impressed with bullets, even the almighty shotgun. There is no reason not to acquire a sight picture and put rounds exactly where you would like. An aimpoint micro on a shotgun is legit

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Feel free to add whatever you need to your shotgun, I will do the same.

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adding a sight can be legit. OTOH I dare someone to push a fellow who is instinctively good with a shotgun... that fellow isn't going to miss and if they do they would have with a dot too.

I can also say this from the bow standpoint, once I got capable with a recurve and no sights, up to a certain distance, and that was a short distance, it was like you ain't gonna miss. You see the target and thats it and an arrow gets there.

I was walking to the stand one time, and saw a doe off the trail watching me. I remember thinking I should take her. Thats about the only thing I remember besides she was on the wrong side of the trail. Next thing I literally recall is an arrow going through her.

Instincts when things fit are a good thing at close ranges.. Fast. Deadly. Accurate.


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the Steiner 1-4 that I wound up with seems to be daylight bright. As far as shooting stuff, the 1-6 Leup and the 1-4 Steiner work pretty good even at close range, the 1-8 trijicon is OK but its so darn heavy and I guess I am not a FFP fan.


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Red dot on your AR and the brightest fugkin' Streamlight you can afford. Light on the strong side, momentary pressure switch on top of the forend.

You'll probably win.


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Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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Originally Posted by jimmyp
I guess I am not a FFP fan.


Not a good idea for close(r) ranges & low power settings for quick shooting in low light; I have a really hard time rationalizing them at all on a tactical set up other than for a LR Precision type rig.

Some guys are ape-shcitt over them, I'm not one of them for closer & personal social intercourse.

JMHO

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Have you seen the donut in the BUshnell Elite series. I actually didn’t think I’d like it as much as I do, but down on 1x it’s about like an EOTEC arrangement. Not saying it’s perfect but it’s pretty quick and spun up to 8.5x you get the full use of the reticle. Just a different look I guess.


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We put a Bushnell holo on Carolyns truck gun. A donut with dots basically. A friend had it. Did not like it. I love it. Quick and fast up close, you know center of donut is on, and going out further the dots help with holdovers. 3 X fixed. Illuminated if you want to turn it on. I rarely have use for illumination


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Not necessarily in the scope of the OP’s questions but what about a red dot-sighted AR-style pistol chambered to 9mm (FX9-style) with back-up fold-down peep sight co-witnessed with the red dot and folded down. A stream light w/ switch on dominant side with switch on top of fore end.

Then you have a handier firearm, one in a cartridge less likely to over penetrate, a good primary sight, a backup, and a light.

This is the route I’ve gone in...

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9mm less likely to over penetrate vs. .223 is highly debatable given smart ammunition choice. But that's a different topic.


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What about decibel level in close quarters? Most don’t have a suppressor. I’d rather have a 9mm going off in a long barrel than a 223 in any barrel length in a close quarters scenario. In such a situation putting ear muffs on in a hurry may not be feasible when in a rush. This scenario seems to be consistent with the discussion.

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I bought the lightest, most basic AR Bud had in stock the day I went shopping for one,..a short gas system, pencil barrel, no front sight Bushmaster QRC.

My initial plan was to outfit it with a red dot. But mounting a red dot informed me that I have stigmatism. So I went with a simple 1X Vortex scope. The scope and mount added about a pound to the rifle, but I took about 5 ounces of that off by changing out the rattly M4 stock with the Battleling Minamalist stock from Mission First. It fits very tightly and weighs close to nothing.

I'm not interested in all the geegaws that can be had for an AR. I just wanted a light, effective house rifle. This one now weighs 6.7 pounds with scope and mount.

I could use a lighter scope and mount to skim a few more ounces, but what's on it works very well and it's already on the lighter end of the scale.

Considering how little money I have in it, I think it's a fairly nice tool for its intended purpose.

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Shotgun fit for shooting birds at 10-40 YARDS, has squat to do with shooting around corners and down hallways in the dark, at 10-40 FEET, and trying to hit with a pattern the size of a golf ball through coffee saucer. Sighting of some sort mandatory, ‘fit’ or not.....we always hope we can shoulder/cheek the gun, but Murphy runs gunfights, not me. I’ve found the 1-4 trijicon stuff, and other LPVs and prisms, to be as fast for me as any RDS, though I do think the open types like eotechs and minis seem faster, but we shotgunned over our sights, as much as actually using them, up close....more peripheral awareness....the theory, anyway. Most tunnel pretty bad.

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well one could be stupid to say that the better a gun fits one the better they shoot it. Rifle or shotgun.

If not, then LOTS of match shooters are dumb [bleep] for making the rifles fit them really well so that the NPA is on and so on. It sure helps when you tunnel vision and forget the sights etc..... Helps a LOT.

Or you can get a whatever stock and just deal with it. Again if you shoot that enough, you'll learn to shoot it well enough instinctively. In fact... thats how instinctive bow shooting works. But again there, a bow that fits and shoots where you look takes much LESS practice to hit with and be consistent.

To say otherwise is kind of off a bit.

That said if you can't get a good handle on the weapon then you sure need a sight of some kind, that said I fail to see how the weapon fitting good hurts one if they have to be contorted and force to use a sight.


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Originally Posted by efw
Not necessarily in the scope of the OP’s questions but what about a red dot-sighted AR-style pistol chambered to 9mm (FX9-style) with back-up fold-down peep sight co-witnessed with the red dot and folded down. A stream light w/ switch on dominant side with switch on top of fore end.

Then you have a handier firearm, one in a cartridge less likely to over penetrate, a good primary sight, a backup, and a light.

This is the route I’ve gone in...





The notion that a 9mm penetrates household barriers less than a .223 is false.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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Originally Posted by IZH27
What about decibel level in close quarters? Most don’t have a suppressor. I’d rather have a 9mm going off in a long barrel than a 223 in any barrel length in a close quarters scenario. In such a situation putting ear muffs on in a hurry may not be feasible when in a rush. This scenario seems to be consistent with the discussion.


You're damaging your ears regardless.

And you're not going to notice it until after the fact.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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Originally Posted by rost495
well one could be stupid to say that the better a gun fits one the better they shoot it. Rifle or shotgun.

If not, then LOTS of match shooters are dumb [bleep] for making the rifles fit them really well so that the NPA is on and so on. It sure helps when you tunnel vision and forget the sights etc..... Helps a LOT.

Or you can get a whatever stock and just deal with it. Again if you shoot that enough, you'll learn to shoot it well enough instinctively. In fact... thats how instinctive bow shooting works. But again there, a bow that fits and shoots where you look takes much LESS practice to hit with and be consistent.

To say otherwise is kind of off a bit.

That said if you can't get a good handle on the weapon then you sure need a sight of some kind, that said I fail to see how the weapon fitting good hurts one if they have to be contorted and force to use a sight.


Slow down. I didn’t say it ‘hurt’, but if that’s all it has going for it vs other options more suitable for the task, then I’ll take learning to run the gun, and I won’t be dragging out the fitted SC or bench rifle, in lieu of something made for HD. You’d also be surprised how absolutely great that ARs and other defense-themed firearms fit many, many people. you might also be shocked to learn that they’re far more quick and maneuverable than a fitted sporting shotgun or rifle, within the arena we’re discussing. all I’m sayin

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Originally Posted by hh4whiskey
Shotgun fit for shooting birds at 10-40 YARDS, has squat to do with shooting around corners and down hallways in the dark, at 10-40 FEET, and trying to hit with a pattern the size of a golf ball through coffee saucer. Sighting of some sort mandatory, ‘fit’ or not.....we always hope we can shoulder/cheek the gun, but Murphy runs gunfights, not me. I’ve found the 1-4 trijicon stuff, and other LPVs and prisms, to be as fast for me as any RDS, though I do think the open types like eotechs and minis seem faster, but we shotgunned over our sights, as much as actually using them, up close....more peripheral awareness....the theory, anyway. Most tunnel pretty bad.


Amazing you can't "shoulder/cheek" a shotgun to aim it but I guess you shoot from the hip with a 1-4 or other LPV and red dots? And then you say you just shotgunned over your sights anyway?

I'm taking notes, keep the tips coming!

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Originally Posted by TWR
Originally Posted by hh4whiskey
Shotgun fit for shooting birds at 10-40 YARDS, has squat to do with shooting around corners and down hallways in the dark, at 10-40 FEET, and trying to hit with a pattern the size of a golf ball through coffee saucer. Sighting of some sort mandatory, ‘fit’ or not.....we always hope we can shoulder/cheek the gun, but Murphy runs gunfights, not me. I’ve found the 1-4 trijicon stuff, and other LPVs and prisms, to be as fast for me as any RDS, though I do think the open types like eotechs and minis seem faster, but we shotgunned over our sights, as much as actually using them, up close....more peripheral awareness....the theory, anyway. Most tunnel pretty bad.


Amazing you can't "shoulder/cheek" a shotgun to aim it but I guess you shoot from the hip with a 1-4 or other LPV and red dots? And then you say you just shotgunned over your sights anyway?

I'm taking notes, keep the tips coming!


Not sure how you’re getting that take, but your notes may need work, if that’s where you’re at. You have to be on the stock, exactly the same, in every dimension, every time, for fit vs poa/poi to work as intended with shotguns. You only need to SEE a dot, which can happen from a myriad of short, long, non vertical, or otherwise unclean mounts and positions, as can shotgunning over irons, OR using a bead, rib, barrel...quickly. All of which work whether ‘fit’ does or not. I can rely on fit at five stand, the blind, or the bench. I’d prefer not to have to when moving, taking cover, or otherwise not stable and static, with someone potentially trying to shoot at me.

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Originally Posted by MOGC
9mm less likely to over penetrate vs. .223 is highly debatable given smart ammunition choice. But that's a different topic.


What you suggest for .223 as smart choice that will do the job but not over penetrate more than 9mm?

Choice in my Glock is Federal Premium 124 GR HP and I’ll run that in longer gun as well.



Originally Posted by deflave


The notion that a 9mm penetrates household barriers less than a .223 is false.



Same question for you.

I need to learn I have neighbors close by.

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Any type of duty hollow points or soft point will penetrate less than your 124gr 9mm load.

This applies to a wide range of barriers/cover.

The odds of 5.56 punching through an exterior wall and killing somebody on the other side is so slim that I wouldn't even consider it a factor.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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....unless your shooting steel core, and most days heavier fmj. Last local LE gunfight was with a meth head who shot a cop in the leg during a car chase. Backup rolled in with ARs and 62gr gtips, and shot him 40-60? times before incapacitating him. He was behind a vehicle, in front of a barn, which many of the rounds went completely through and continued on to puncture three roofs a half mile away. Local PD had to pay for the repairs. LOL. Brick or thick wood will catch them, though. Any good non-fmj/target HP bullet will do, and some heavier match HPs do well, also. Don’t know what the latest craze is, but most soft points, bonded, tactical, even varmint loads are more effective and safe than any fmj in a home scenario.....but others will be more up on technicalities and specific loads and such.

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I observed an FBI protocol demonstration last year. Federal tactical 55 grain was dismal against clothed gelatin after passing through each of wallboard, plywood, glass and steel compared to 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP Gold Dots. The round went to pieces. 62 grain and 75 grain Gold Dots did better in gel than the Federal after passing through those barriers, but they still didn't outpenetrate the handgun rounds to the best of my recollection. Of course, against bare and clothed gel, all of the .223 rounds did impressive damage compared to the handgun rounds and still did not overpenetrate. I personally wouldn't worry about any of those .223 rounds, and I would use a 9mm before using the 55 grain if I needed to penetrate any barrier. Of course, use the 55 grain if you want less chance of penetration than with your handgun (if a barrier is involved).

I can't speak to steel core. That's just a bad idea for home defense.

YMMV

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I'd put my money on a regular wingshooter in most in-home shootings over just about anyone who had trained principally on a range. And that in particular for those who have jump shot upland birds or hunted ruffed grouse.

If a guy jump shoots upland birds well enough to stay interested in the game for a 3rd season he'd be very capable.


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Cheyenne, HHS4w, and Deflave thanks a lot that is all very helpful I really appreciate the insights I’ve obviously been misinformed.

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Originally Posted by johnw
I'd put my money on a regular wingshooter in most in-home shootings over just about anyone who had trained principally on a range. And that in particular for those who have jump shot upland birds or hunted ruffed grouse.

If a guy jump shoots upland birds well enough to stay interested in the game for a 3rd season he'd be very capable.


Yea, that's the guy I want to go up against. The one who shoots 500 rounds a weekend at little disks flying 75mph.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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LOL...yeah. If I’d never learned anything BUT wingshooting or sporting tourneys, and had never done a myriad of other stuff, I’d probably believe my old quail idols could go all John wick with an LC Smith, too. However, they’d probably be far better with a shorter, lighter gun, some light, some way to at least be precise, etc....whether carbine OR shotgun built for the task at hand. I’ve also seen buckshot and shotgun pellets in general do too much unintentionally dangerous stuff compared to bullets.

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You know I took a lot of crap at the skeet range when I brought my 21" Benelli M1 but it's what I used for everything and it's the only shotgun I still own. However I would like to have the 14" version, always wanted one of those. I'd add a light and nothing else.

But as I've said in the past, I'll grab a pistol or an AR, both have lights and red dots.

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Originally Posted by hh4whiskey
....unless your shooting steel core, and most days heavier fmj. Last local LE gunfight was with a meth head who shot a cop in the leg during a car chase. Backup rolled in with ARs and 62gr gtips, and shot him 40-60? times before incapacitating him. He was behind a vehicle, in front of a barn, which many of the rounds went completely through and continued on to puncture three roofs a half mile away. Local PD had to pay for the repairs. LOL. Brick or thick wood will catch them, though. Any good non-fmj/target HP bullet will do, and some heavier match HPs do well, also. Don’t know what the latest craze is, but most soft points, bonded, tactical, even varmint loads are more effective and safe than any fmj in a home scenario.....but others will be more up on technicalities and specific loads and such.


This is complete horse schit.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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Originally Posted by hh4whiskey
....unless your shooting steel core, and most days heavier fmj. Last local LE gunfight was with a meth head who shot a cop in the leg during a car chase. Backup rolled in with ARs and 62gr gtips, and shot him 40-60? times before incapacitating him. He was behind a vehicle, in front of a barn, which many of the rounds went completely through and continued on to puncture three roofs a half mile away. Local PD had to pay for the repairs. LOL. Brick or thick wood will catch them, though. Any good non-fmj/target HP bullet will do, and some heavier match HPs do well, also. Don’t know what the latest craze is, but most soft points, bonded, tactical, even varmint loads are more effective and safe than any fmj in a home scenario.....but others will be more up on technicalities and specific loads and such.


shot at him or shot him 40-60 times? I cannot imagine a human body taking 40 rounds from an AR15 and still being functional. On the other hand I have no idea what a 62 grain gtip is, on the other other hand I have killed several deer and pigs with a 5.56 gun with one shot, one buck was in full rut chasing a doe, shot in the shoulder with a 62 grain TSX ran 25 yards and fell. Can you post up the link to that meth head story? If your 62 grain gtip is a 62 grain gold dot, aka 62 grain fusion and he was still breathing air after being hit 40 times, that is kind of wild I would figure after about 20 hits in various limbs, chest, stomach that it would be hard to be holding the pieces together, let alone be sucking wind.


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Originally Posted by efw
Cheyenne, HHS4w, and Deflave thanks a lot that is all very helpful I really appreciate the insights I’ve obviously been misinformed.



Happy to help and you're not alone.

I attended a school last December. It was vehicle and low light centric.

One of the first things they have everybody do is shoot the schit out of everything, with everything. The idea is for everyone to see deflection against windshields that are outbound instead of inbound. .308 vs .223 on vehicle doors. Cinder blocks. Paving blocks. Dry wall. 4x4's. You get the idea...

The instructors of course already knew all the results because they'd already performed these same demonstrations dozens of times. But the reason they have the students shoot it, is because when they try to TELL everybody that a 9mm out penetrates a 5.56 none of the students believe them.

LOL.

Human nature I guess.

Oddly enough, shotgun loads were out penetrating 5.56 on a variety of barrier/cover as well. Which is the opposite of what we've been told for as long as I can remember.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by johnw
I'd put my money on a regular wingshooter in most in-home shootings over just about anyone who had trained principally on a range. And that in particular for those who have jump shot upland birds or hunted ruffed grouse.

If a guy jump shoots upland birds well enough to stay interested in the game for a 3rd season he'd be very capable.


I agree with this completely.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by hh4whiskey
....unless your shooting steel core, and most days heavier fmj. Last local LE gunfight was with a meth head who shot a cop in the leg during a car chase. Backup rolled in with ARs and 62gr gtips, and shot him 40-60? times before incapacitating him. He was behind a vehicle, in front of a barn, which many of the rounds went completely through and continued on to puncture three roofs a half mile away. Local PD had to pay for the repairs. LOL. Brick or thick wood will catch them, though. Any good non-fmj/target HP bullet will do, and some heavier match HPs do well, also. Don’t know what the latest craze is, but most soft points, bonded, tactical, even varmint loads are more effective and safe than any fmj in a home scenario.....but others will be more up on technicalities and specific loads and such.


This is complete horse schit.



Since you don’t know what green tip, penetrator, m855, etc are, your comments (based on your ignorance) are taken as intended humor.

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Originally Posted by hh4whiskey



Since you don’t know what green tip, penetrator, m855, etc are, your comments (based on your ignorance) are taken as intended humor.




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Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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I need to get some dry wall etc
I would have thought 223 would penetrate that pretty easy

Its not that I dont believe I just like to try chit for myself

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Originally Posted by jimmyp

shot at him or shot him 40-60 times? I cannot imagine a human body taking 40 rounds from an AR15 and still being functional. On the other hand I have no idea what a 62 grain gtip is, on the other other hand I have killed several deer and pigs with a 5.56 gun with one shot, one buck was in full rut chasing a doe, shot in the shoulder with a 62 grain TSX ran 25 yards and fell. Can you post up the link to that meth head story? If your 62 grain gtip is a 62 grain gold dot, aka 62 grain fusion and he was still breathing air after being hit 40 times, that is kind of wild I would figure after about 20 hits in various limbs, chest, stomach that it would be hard to be holding the pieces together, let alone be sucking wind.


Don’t let not knowing what something is at all, keep you from being an expert on it.....or attempting to be sarcastic about something you’re intentionally misinterpreting. If you’ll notice, punctuation and words mean things. Watch for commas and question marks. I’m glad you you seem to be furthering your education, though.

I don’t remember how many times they actually hit him with whole bullets, just the steel penetrator noses, just the jacket, just the lead base plug, pieces of glass, pieces of car, but it was far more than should have been needed. I don’t know which rounds hit sheet metal, glass, engine, tires, air, grass, meat....first. ....also don’t recall when in this sequence the officer got hit....beginning, middle, end. There was a lawsuit over excessive force, based on number of wounds. It’s been some years back. Don’t see anything on actual shooting specifics of it to let you read or watch a made for TV movie about it, either. There’s been more than enough people and vehicles shot up with penetrator, mil issue rounds, to confirm what is what. Point is: FMJ/mil issu rounds aren’t the most effective incapacitators in 223/5.56, and they often over penetrate, for typical home defense/LE use. Expanding options are better. A dude that grew up wing shooting, upland hunting, dog deer hunting, shot SC tournaments, AND learns the long rifle, carbine, and/or pistol as well as his granddaddy’s shotgun, will probably be even better with EVERYTHING, than the shooter that stopped at birds and bird guns. It’s a great base, but why stop there and think it’s all that’s ever needed?

https://www.waff.com/story/29861483/police-release-new-details-related-to-arab-officer-shooting

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boatboy,

It's not that it won't penetrate a single layer of sheetrock. But it disrupts flight and causes the projectile to come apart to such a degree that by the time it hits the next piece of sheetrock it's ability to connect becomes tough to predict.

If you do the same test against a 9mm, 40, or 45 ACP we found the pistol rounds actually penetrated better and in a more predictable fashion.

When you add the respective projectiles impacting studs (as they would when grazing walls in a corridor) or hitting external walls the differences start to become so negligible that it becomes a moot point. Which was pretty much the point of their exercise.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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And interestingly, FMJ stuff was penetrating with less predictability and more fragmentation than regular duty rounds.

We didn't have any monolithics to test but I wish we had.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Post up a link, I would love to read it. If not your just some other dude on the internet claiming some knowledge that surpasses others knowledge. Also why would swat show up with cheap Schit green tips? Very odd. Plus your first post said “shot him” but now it’s ricochets, glass and flying cow manure.

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Originally Posted by hh4whiskey


Don’t let not knowing what something is at all, keep you from being an expert on it.....or attempting to be sarcastic about something you’re intentionally misinterpreting. If you’ll notice, punctuation and words mean things. Watch for commas and question marks. I’m glad you you seem to be furthering your education, though.

I don’t remember how many times they actually hit him with whole bullets, just the steel penetrator noses, just the jacket, just the lead base plug, pieces of glass, pieces of car, but it was far more than should have been needed. I don’t know which rounds hit sheet metal, glass, engine, tires, air, grass, meat....first. ....also don’t recall when in this sequence the officer got hit....beginning, middle, end. There was a lawsuit over excessive force, based on number of wounds. It’s been some years back. Don’t see anything on it to let you read or watch a made for TV movie about it, either. There’s been more than enough people and vehicles shot up with penetrator, mil issue rounds, to confirm what is what. Point is: FMJ/mil issu rounds aren’t the most effective incapacitators in 223/5.56, and they often over penetrate, for typical home defense/LE use. Expanding options are better. A dude that grew up wing shooting, upland hunting, dog deer hunting, shot SC tournaments, AND learns the long rifle, carbine, and/or pistol as well as his granddaddy’s shotgun, will probably be even better with EVERYTHING, than the shooter that stopped at birds and bird guns. It’s a great base, but why stop there and think it’s all that’s ever needed?


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Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by hh4whiskey
myriad


"Chances Will Be Taken"


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DPMS Oracle cost me almost $500 years ago, put a laser on the picatinny gas block and a red dot on the flat top. PMC 62 gr GREEN tip for those who don't understand ( gtip) 20 rd Colt mag. anything the red dot or laser is on is toast comprende? Grew up with a shotgun in one hand and the will to use it in the other. WTF was the question again? MB


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It’s nothing Bob just the usual internet commando stuff, while M855 is probably less effective that M193 at under 100 yards, I can’t see someone taking 3-4 hits in the thorax with M855 and flipping off his adversaries.


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Originally Posted by hh4whiskey
....unless your shooting steel core, and most days heavier fmj. Last local LE gunfight was with a meth head who shot a cop in the leg during a car chase. Backup rolled in with ARs and 62gr gtips, and shot him 40-60? times before incapacitating him. He was behind a vehicle, in front of a barn, which many of the rounds went completely through and continued on to puncture three roofs a half mile away. Local PD had to pay for the repairs. LOL. Brick or thick wood will catch them, though. Any good non-fmj/target HP bullet will do, and some heavier match HPs do well, also. Don’t know what the latest craze is, but most soft points, bonded, tactical, even varmint loads are more effective and safe than any fmj in a home scenario.....but others will be more up on technicalities and specific loads and such.


A reminder for those just joining...

This is complete fugking bullschit.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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The facts of the story and the supplemental story were too nebulous to accord it any probative value.


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And everyone knows that the FMJ projectiles are the worst for shooting a group.

They were made for incapacitating the bad guys.

Snork grin

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Oh I don’t know.

A meth addict in Alabama steals a car and gets chased by the owner on a 4 Wheeler. Three agencies corner the n’er-do-well at a chicken farm and cut loose with a bunch of green tip.

Some hillbilly on here hears about what happened at the local bowling alley and tries to tell us, but gets the story all wrong.

Seems pretty reasonable to me.


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Not my ‘story’, but you can take it up with those involved and the chief. Came from them. Call them liars if you want. I have enough first hand putting 5.56 through stuff to understand it at least as well as many. OTT, I try not to stoop to the level of DF or BS around here.

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Originally Posted by Cheyenne
The facts of the story and the supplemental story were too nebulous to accord it any probative value.


Yeah...

Those words.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by hh4whiskey
Not my ‘story’, but you can take it up with those involved and the chief. Came from them. Call them liars if you want. I have enough first hand putting 5.56 through stuff to understand it at least as well as many. OTT, I try not to stoop to the level of DF or BS around here.


Ok.

What’s their name and department?

And no you don’t. So stop claiming you do.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Oh I don’t know.

A meth addict in Alabama steals a car and gets chased by the owner on a 4 Wheeler. Three agencies corner the n’er-do-well at a chicken farm and cut loose with a bunch of green tip.

Some hillbilly on here hears about what happened at the local bowling alley and tries to tell us, but gets the story all wrong.

Seems pretty reasonable to me.


The delay of your sequel is 100% nonsense.

Use your Scientology powers to right this wrong, please.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by hh4whiskey
Not my ‘story’, but you can take it up with those involved and the chief. Came from them. Call them liars if you want. I have enough first hand putting 5.56 through stuff to understand it at least as well as many. OTT, I try not to stoop to the level of DF or BS around here.


Ok.

What’s their name and department?

And no you don’t. So stop claiming you do.


Flave, Maybe we oughtta back off on this guy. I googled "John Wick". Did you know there was an "International Assassins Guild"?


"Chances Will Be Taken"


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Looking over my shoulder the rest of the day...


"Chances Will Be Taken"


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Discourse is fine.

Horse schit is not.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Since we've entered the realm of ammo, regardless of how many rds. it takes to stop a tweeker, whats the recommended fodder for the blaster in the home defense role?

I've got Hornady TAP in the AR at the moment...good? bad? Others?


“Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.”
― G. Orwell

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Originally Posted by SBTCO
Since we've entered the realm of ammo, regardless of how many rds. it takes to stop a tweeker, whats the recommended fodder for the blaster in the home defense role?

I've got Hornady TAP in the AR at the moment...good? bad? Others?


Which TAP?


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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I've got 77 grain NCC's in my AR

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Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by SBTCO
Since we've entered the realm of ammo, regardless of how many rds. it takes to stop a tweeker, whats the recommended fodder for the blaster in the home defense role?

I've got Hornady TAP in the AR at the moment...good? bad? Others?


Which TAP?



"223 REM 60 gr. TAP" red tip


“Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.”
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"Why can't men kill big game with the same cartridges women and kids use?"
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Originally Posted by SBTCO
Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by SBTCO
Since we've entered the realm of ammo, regardless of how many rds. it takes to stop a tweeker, whats the recommended fodder for the blaster in the home defense role?

I've got Hornady TAP in the AR at the moment...good? bad? Others?


Which TAP?



"223 REM 60 gr. TAP" red tip


I wouldn't deviate from that.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by SBTCO
Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by SBTCO
Since we've entered the realm of ammo, regardless of how many rds. it takes to stop a tweeker, whats the recommended fodder for the blaster in the home defense role?

I've got Hornady TAP in the AR at the moment...good? bad? Others?


Which TAP?



"223 REM 60 gr. TAP" red tip


I wouldn't deviate from that.




Cool, thanks.


“Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.”
― G. Orwell

"Why can't men kill big game with the same cartridges women and kids use?"
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Originally Posted by SBTCO
Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by SBTCO
Since we've entered the realm of ammo, regardless of how many rds. it takes to stop a tweeker, whats the recommended fodder for the blaster in the home defense role?

I've got Hornady TAP in the AR at the moment...good? bad? Others?


Which TAP?



"223 REM 60 gr. TAP" red tip


Good in crowded settings.


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Originally Posted by MOGC
Originally Posted by SBTCO
Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by SBTCO
Since we've entered the realm of ammo, regardless of how many rds. it takes to stop a tweeker, whats the recommended fodder for the blaster in the home defense role?

I've got Hornady TAP in the AR at the moment...good? bad? Others?


Which TAP?



"223 REM 60 gr. TAP" red tip


Good in crowded settings.



Nice to know, my house has thin walls.


“Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.”
― G. Orwell

"Why can't men kill big game with the same cartridges women and kids use?"
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62 grain Fusion for me


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Originally Posted by jimmyp
62 grain Fusion for me


That's actually what I use as a general purpose load. I'm not in a situation that I am concerned with over penetration. I have shot crows, feral cats, coyotes, bobcats, one each deer and wild hog. It works very well.


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yall recon the 77 grain HP would penetrate less wall board material than the 62 Fusion?


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Originally Posted by jimmyp
yall recon the 77 grain HP would penetrate less wall board material than the 62 Fusion?


Jimmy,

If you are concerned about over penetration, a very good answer was given above in the 60gr Horndady TAP, which is basically a 60gr Hornady Vmax. 60gr NBT does pretty much the same thing.

Mag couplers are also an option, with something like 64gr Nosler BSB, NPT, or the fusion if you want the additional option for something with a bit more penetration.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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