Went to the range yesterday and did some ladder tests with Hornady's 70 grain GMX bullet. The test were nothing short of terrible. Interested in hearing opinions on where to go next. I'm not hooked on this bullet so if the weight of the advice is leave it and move on...so be it. The rifle used in this test does very well with 65 grain SGK's.
Rifle: AR - 16inch Ballistic Advantage Premium series barrel 1:8 w/ standard A2 attached
I Just have never had the best of luck accuracy wise with most Hornady bullets. 75 amax is about the rare exception and even it varied lot to lot per the OAL if the projectiles.
That said should be under 5 inches.
If it won't shoot with 25 of Varget it won't shoot IMHO.
Ladders don't show much at 100 usually, they are reserved to 200 or better yet 300 to actually see whats going on. FWIW.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Some bullets are finicky. I'd try a medium load of 3 or 4 different powder then work up with which ever one looked best.
Other powders - IMR4198, IMR4895, H4831, & RL22
Barnes data for their 70gr TAC X mentions IMR4895.
The GMX is a hornady bullet. Id suggest looking at a hornady load manual. Also, based on preliminary results, i would probably look for a different bullet, as your rifle doesnt seem to like that one.
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
As lawrence said try a different bullet.. I went full circle last yr on bullets and powder. I came to this conclusion 3 good powders to use with heaviesin the 223/5.56. RL15, AR Comp, and Varget. I now stick with either 77gr TMK's or 80.5 Berger's (loaded long slow fire out my AR). I realize you are probably using that bullet for a specific reason. Believe it or not several members here have used the plain Jane hornady bthp on deer and pigs with excellent results.
Last edited by 79S; 03/28/20.
Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
Well I've learned a few things. Not all bad really. One of those things is that if you are going to have reloading manuals on an iPhone, you should scroll all the way to the bottom of the page for 'other' little nuggets of information. Thanks for the help guys!! Moving on.
I'd have a hard time believing it won't stabilize in an 8. BUT the 8 would have to be a true 8 or faster. And the bullet probably can't be a slow load. Just somewhat educated guesses there.
Edit to ad, just saw the 16 inch tube, that one its possible you have all working against you. Barrel twist 8 plus heading to 9. Slow load. Short barrel, equals low MV and not what you need when you are on the edge.
That said your bullets should have been oblong holes instead of round if that was the case and I"ve shot some pretty decent 300 yard groups with oblong holes...
Last edited by rost495; 03/29/20.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
I'd have a hard time believing it won't stabilize in an 8. BUT the 8 would have to be a true 8 or faster. And the bullet probably can't be a slow load. Just somewhat educated guesses there.
Edit to ad, just saw the 16 inch tube, that one its possible you have all working against you. Barrel twist 8 plus heading to 9. Slow load. Short barrel, equals low MV and not what you need when you are on the edge.
That said your bullets should have been oblong holes instead of round if that was the case and I"ve shot some pretty decent 300 yard groups with oblong holes...
My daughter 1-9 16 inch AR will shoot 77 into a nice shotgun group at 100yds no key holes. I supposed i have it that bullet going fast enough not to start tumbling. Shoots 55 pretty damn good..
Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
I'd have a hard time believing it won't stabilize in an 8. BUT the 8 would have to be a true 8 or faster. And the bullet probably can't be a slow load. Just somewhat educated guesses there.
Edit to ad, just saw the 16 inch tube, that one its possible you have all working against you. Barrel twist 8 plus heading to 9. Slow load. Short barrel, equals low MV and not what you need when you are on the edge.
That said your bullets should have been oblong holes instead of round if that was the case and I"ve shot some pretty decent 300 yard groups with oblong holes...
I've seriously been noodling on whether or not to ladder test down from the max load stated in the 5.56 section of Hornady 11th. Say 3 half grain steps. That might relieve my curiosity. I have 172 of the damn things. What's nine more?
I'd have a hard time believing it won't stabilize in an 8. BUT the 8 would have to be a true 8 or faster. And the bullet probably can't be a slow load. Just somewhat educated guesses there.
Edit to ad, just saw the 16 inch tube, that one its possible you have all working against you. Barrel twist 8 plus heading to 9. Slow load. Short barrel, equals low MV and not what you need when you are on the edge.
That said your bullets should have been oblong holes instead of round if that was the case and I"ve shot some pretty decent 300 yard groups with oblong holes...
I've seriously been noodling on whether or not to ladder test down from the max load stated in the 5.56 section of Hornady 11th. Say 3 half grain steps. That might relieve my curiosity. I have 172 of the damn things. What's nine more?
Getting them up to speed might help for sure..
Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
I'd have a hard time believing it won't stabilize in an 8. BUT the 8 would have to be a true 8 or faster. And the bullet probably can't be a slow load. Just somewhat educated guesses there.
Edit to ad, just saw the 16 inch tube, that one its possible you have all working against you. Barrel twist 8 plus heading to 9. Slow load. Short barrel, equals low MV and not what you need when you are on the edge.
That said your bullets should have been oblong holes instead of round if that was the case and I"ve shot some pretty decent 300 yard groups with oblong holes...
Yeah, as long as they are not sideways.. I've shot some minute of deer groups with bullets flying sideways...
Makes me laugh at all the threads asking "why is my rifle shooting like chidt?".... or, The best I can do is 3 or 4" groups. What's wrong? Lastnight when I saw this thread I was going to say that the 1 in 8 is too slow, but if you look at the Hornady TAP ammo that is loaded with the 70GMX, it says 1 in 8 will work, but you and 79s are right, he's just not running them fast enough. Barrel too damn short. Why is he even wanting to run such a heavy mono in the 223 anyway? His choice, but if it were me, I'd be looking at the 53gr TTSX or similar for that shorty 1 in 8.....
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
I'd have a hard time believing it won't stabilize in an 8. BUT the 8 would have to be a true 8 or faster. And the bullet probably can't be a slow load. Just somewhat educated guesses there.
Edit to ad, just saw the 16 inch tube, that one its possible you have all working against you. Barrel twist 8 plus heading to 9. Slow load. Short barrel, equals low MV and not what you need when you are on the edge.
That said your bullets should have been oblong holes instead of round if that was the case and I"ve shot some pretty decent 300 yard groups with oblong holes...
I've seriously been noodling on whether or not to ladder test down from the max load stated in the 5.56 section of Hornady 11th. Say 3 half grain steps. That might relieve my curiosity. I have 172 of the damn things. What's nine more?
Sure, I always start at or over max, by a good bit, then work down....
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
Bsa brings up a good point you always work up to max. Several reasons why main one chit get real, real quick when it decides to let go in you. 2nd working your way up you might find the sweet spot and never have to get to max for good accuracy.. what’s your intended purpose for this setup? Deer/pig hunting?
Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
First off, what the op is doing is not a "ladder test". The last time I did a "ladder test", I also used my chrono. If you watch the chrono, it will tell you where the accuracy nodes should be. Couple that with what you are seeing on paper and whala, you should be on to a good group or 2, depending on where you want to be as far as pressure and velocity. What I see here is basically the OCW method, not a true ladder. Like rost said, a ladder test is better shot at further distances: Generally at least 300-500 yards. That way you can see where the bullets start to level off and start to cluster. Also, shooting 3 shot groups isn't really telling you the whole story. Sure, a lot of us do it. I'm guilty myself, but like I said earlier, If I had a bullet that was shooting 5" groups like the op is getting, I'd chit can the idea of using said bullet. That actually happened to me the other day when I was shooting my 6WOA. The reason I told 79s I'd sell the damn thing to him . Yeah, it didn't like 90gr gamechangers. I was so pizzed when I shot some 4" groups with what is normally a sub moa rifle shooting 85gr sierra gamekings. There are guys here that can possible help the op. Good luck with it...
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
That’s why I’m asking what he intends to do with this setup. He can probably use regular ol 75gr hornady bthp and be just fine.
Well, of course he could. He could also use the 77TMK. Or like I said earlier the 53gr TSX, if he wants to run a mono bullet. There are many good bullets out there.
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
Not using the 5.56 data in Hornady 11th was my own error. I'd like to say it won't happen again, but, who knows; I suffer the human condition. I scan across several books (and my phone) to get the charge weight ranges and decision from there...just eff'd it up this time. I do tend towards loading my 3 shot groups in half grain weights and depending on the economics of the test I'll start in the middle and go up or down. Sometimes I get lucky; sometimes I don't. By economics I mean spending the money to cover a 4-5 grain difference in stated weight charges. If the gap isn't that big I'll do the whole range of charges. The low charge weights in this test (my original post), were my mistake.
Why did I choose this bullet? Wanted to test a monolithic in mah rifle. Just because. I WAS aware of BSA's reference to the tap ammo not excluding the 1:8 twist rate, which, along with other tiny bits of internet kung fu, allowed my confirmation bias to kick in and buy the bullets anyway (blems from Midway). My typical range day, and my typical hunting environment is contained within a 200 yard distance. The hunting might stretch a bit to 225 yards, but that's it.
The rifle has performed very well with 65 grain SGK's. I don't own a chronograph yet; I'm not there yet, and I won't be shooting at anything, not even a target, at 300 - 500 yards. If I'm absolutely struck to do that, then I'm likely to cuddle up my 270 and we'll sing Agnus Dei together. I'm in Florida and do not hunt past 200 yards, with a very small 'ish' attached to that 200 yards.
Anyway - back to attempting to clarify and answer. The 65 grain SGK's shoot very well. I'm satisfied with the groups it produces. I've not tested a wide range of bullets in the rifle yet. That day will come. The factory load testing I did showed that the new barrel preferred the Federal Fusion 62gr load, but the groups were right at an inch, with two 5 shot groups measuring .600 ish. Again, 100 yards, and an inch isn't really complaint worthy, but I thought it could do better. We don't have Western flat plains and mountains in Florida, and you only have to stick your arm out from your body to make contact with a pine tree or palmetto (assuming you hunt in the woods). My hunting 'radius' is, as I said before, confined to a distance of roughly 200 yards. So my testing is confined to those distances as well. To state the obvious, if I can shoot close to a half inch, or even 2 inches for that matter, I'm gonna be good at 200 (plus a pinch). Or as BSA put it, minute of deer.
My intended purpose? I have to honestly answer that I have no idea - other than to see if the monolithic would shoot in my rifle. Given the performance of the SGK's however, I'm not inclined to seriously chase this past a simple 3 step ladder (woops...I slipped...) up to the max in the Hornady manual. There will have to be something remarkable happen in order for me to abandon the SGK load in favor of the mono though. BSA's suggestion of the TSX is noted.
For context - we all chase different things with our hobbies. Some chase their version of perfection; some chase the simple standard; can I do it? I've made several different styles of period furniture replica's over the years, and I built custom acoustic guitars for several years as well. The 'thing' I chased in those endeavors, was NOT a standard that made the crowd 'happy' (since you nor I can ever know what the hell that is anyway). My standard(s) was and remains; can I actually achieve that which I believe I am capable, and that which I believe should be the reward for MY effort. Essentially...my standard of perfection, which admittedly is not likely to be another's standard of perfection. And while I've had great successes in most of those areas, success hasn't always cuddled up to me to enjoy the perfect campfire. Such is life. I am willing to fail at something, if only to get over the damn hurdle and start again. But I set the course...not the crowd. Some will understand this...some will not.
First off, what the op is doing is not a "ladder test". The last time I did a "ladder test", I also used my chrono. If you watch the chrono, it will tell you where the accuracy nodes should be. Couple that with what you are seeing on paper and whala, you should be on to a good group or 2, depending on where you want to be as far as pressure and velocity. What I see here is basically the OCW method, not a true ladder. Like rost said, a ladder test is better shot at further distances: Generally at least 300-500 yards. That way you can see where the bullets start to level off and start to cluster. Also, shooting 3 shot groups isn't really telling you the whole story. Sure, a lot of us do it. I'm guilty myself, but like I said earlier, If I had a bullet that was shooting 5" groups like the op is getting, I'd chit can the idea of using said bullet. That actually happened to me the other day when I was shooting my 6WOA. The reason I told 79s I'd sell the damn thing to him . Yeah, it didn't like 90gr gamechangers. I was so pizzed when I shot some 4" groups with what is normally a sub moa rifle shooting 85gr sierra gamekings. There are guys here that can possible help the op. Good luck with it...
The reason not to shoot 10-20 shot groups to start with is waste of time, ammo etc..
IF I"m going to shoot groups rather than an Audette test, then I load either 2 or 3 max. if 2 or 3 are inches apart, there is no need to shoot a couple more...
IF I find 2 or 3 close or touching, I have to go back and shoot more of course. One way or the other the numbers might work out the same but it usually aggravated me to shoot a couple in a huge group and realize I still had a few more of that charge to waste.. I hate pulling loaded ammo down...
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Looks like mah wee litt'l rifle has nae a taste fer that 70 grain GMX. It's a no go me-thinks. Too many things working against. Some nice flattened primers as well. Thanks for the help. 100 yards from a rest.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/nBPlM2B.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/eXVbBdh.jpg)
. Yeah, it didn't like 90gr gamechangers. I was so pizzed when I shot some 4" groups with what is normally a sub moa rifle shooting 85gr sierra gamekings. There are guys here that can possible help the op. Good luck with it...