I guess there are game wardens...and then there are game wardens. Two years ago I had one stop me on a forest service road and ask if my carbine was loaded. I started to open the bolt for him whereupon, he not trusting me, took the Mannlicher and proceeded in macho ATF fashion to check it himself. Apparently he had not handled enough bolt guns to realize the safety had to be off to open the bolt. Growing visibly agitated, and his hard on wilting rapidly, after waving the muzzle around as he struggled, he eventually handed it back and commanded I open it. I complied. Carbine and magazine empty, he then wanted to see every document in my wallet and glove box. He eventually let me go on with the stern admonition that he was keeping an eye on me. My point of this long winded anecdote is that the people this job attracts are not the cream of law enforcement, let alone authorities on humane professional culling. I know an old couple who received a haystack elk carcass a few years ago near John Day, 3 holes, guts, brisket and earhole...I'll let you draw your own conclusions on that.
I would bet that each of us here has probably had an experience with an individual in some form of law enforcement who had no business in being in that occupation. All occupations have their (hopefully small) share of individuals who are should not be so employed. To judge all members of any occupation, be it game warden, patrolman, teacher, lawyer, or even priest, by the actions of a few is very unfair to the rest.
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
Yep, you're right, that was my point, they probably represent the general population in every regard. As far as a body of qualified opinion on elk calibers, personally I'd take John Barsness' opinion 4 ways from Sunday and engrave it in stone.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
Well, if the .243 is good then the .257 Roberts must be sublime! LOL!
Hear! Hear!
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." Robert E. Howard
I'd guess wardens put their pants on the same way the rest of us do. I've hunted with local wardens and done a few squirrel shoots with one this spring. He did not bother to check zero with his rifle and shoots whatever ammo is cheapest on the other side of the counter. Not an exceptional shot by any means.
I don’t remember a survey, but I do distinctly remember reading that certain game wardens personally used the .243 on elk. I also remember reading that one very popular guide used the .243 for everything and short the 70 grain Hornady Bullet.
I think that helps confirm that I'm not going crazy, or dreamed it up! Do you recall where you read it?
Not a game warden, but for years I have used .243 A.I. to cull Elk cows and poor quality Bulls, depending on our survey number's about 6 to 10 Cows and 4 to 8 Bulls per year,contrary to the internet B.S. Elk are not hard to kill, hard to find yep, hard to see in the brush yep, hard to get a good shot at yep, hard to kill nope. Rio7
That seems like a good bit of data, RIO7. What was your preference for bullet(s), and shot placement?
I guess there are game wardens...and then there are game wardens. Two years ago I had one stop me on a forest service road and ask if my carbine was loaded. I started to open the bolt for him whereupon, he not trusting me, took the Mannlicher and proceeded in macho ATF fashion to check it himself. Apparently he had not handled enough bolt guns to realize the safety had to be off to open the bolt. Growing visibly agitated, and his hard on wilting rapidly, after waving the muzzle around as he struggled, he eventually handed it back and commanded I open it. I complied. Carbine and magazine empty, he then wanted to see every document in my wallet and glove box. He eventually let me go on with the stern admonition that he was keeping an eye on me.
Were you in Eastern Oregon?
Sounds like Ranger Miracle, of the BLM. Myself and a co-worker have run into him, separately. That really is his last name, and he does have some peculiar behavior. For example, he told my co-worker's Land Rover group that he'd been tracking them for days across the high desert, by their tire tracks. When asked why, he said something about drug smugglers. They told him they were a 4x4 offroad club, on vacation. He didn't believe them.
The 2 old good wardens we had retired. They were good guys who tried to work with people. The 2 new ones are strictly law enforcement. I figure give them a couple years to mellow and meet people and things will be back to normal. If there wasnt so much meth in our area they would probably be a lot more mellow to old farts like me. Cant say as I blame them.
Molɔ̀ːn Labé Grandpa:the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Dad:son you have 2 choices for supper eat or don't eat.
I'm getting sidetracked, but the Joe Rogan podcast with John Nores was interesting. From what I understand, the State of California made game wardens fight illegal growers of cannabis. Sounds like jungle warfare.
I don't believe that scenarshooter or atse are exactly "game wardens" but I sure listen when they speak. JB is an invaluable source of good info based on real world experience. Maybe it is my charming presence but I have had nothing but pleasant encounters w/ any critter cop in the western US.
mike r
Don't wish it were easier Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that. Craig Douglas ECQC
Actually game wardens in California are pressured to travel with the narcotic interdiction teams. The wardens have search powers that do not require a warrant, as is true in most states. Some of them really get into it, some wish they weren't involved. Part of my problem getting crosswise with wardens is, I'm a sorry looking son of a bitch, high and tight hair, scroungy old man beard, tattered clothing, wore out pickups, beater rifles...no tatoos or earrings or none of that but still, I can see 'em fuzz up when they get close enough to talk. 5 years ago I had one drive by my old tent, stop, back up and get out and brace me over a hawk feather in my Resistol. Illegal to possess non game animal parts he said. In the process he unsnapped his holster strap, that scared me. The short of it was, I handed over the feather and he told me he was "glad this didn't turn into a confrontation". That guy was primed . He called the Forest Service when he got back to the highway and turned me in for having a "fire". Forest Service cop didn't write me up because it was a woodstove in the tent. Land of the free, home of the brave.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
Actually game wardens in California are pressured to travel with the narcotic interdiction teams. The wardens have search powers that do not require a warrant, as is true in most states. .
Another myth often quoted.I had two wardens come to my house and demand to search my freezer.I kicked them out of my house and called the Sheriffs dept. to remove them for trespassing,which he did.They got to have probable cause just like any other cop.
Its all right to be white!! Stupidity left unattended will run rampant Don't argue with stupid people, They will drag you down to their level and then win by experience
Huntz...In Wisconsin yes. A quick google search will reveal: MOST states allow "warrantless searches" by game wardens. Fact. Calif allows it, it has been challenged many times in court, and the court has upheld it. You are fortunate to live in a state that doesn't. Do not presume to give legal advice, to everyone, everywhere. My neighbor was on a drug interdiction team for 20 or more years, on national TV reality show, Sgt Mike Gilley, Siskiyou Co Sheriffs Office, and they always drug a warden along on busts because of the wardens powers. In Calif, a warden can search any vehicle, structure or person without a warrant on the flimsiest pretext.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
I guess there are game wardens...and then there are game wardens. Two years ago I had one stop me on a forest service road and ask if my carbine was loaded. I started to open the bolt for him whereupon, he not trusting me, took the Mannlicher and proceeded in macho ATF fashion to check it himself. Apparently he had not handled enough bolt guns to realize the safety had to be off to open the bolt. Growing visibly agitated, and his hard on wilting rapidly, after waving the muzzle around as he struggled, he eventually handed it back and commanded I open it. I complied. Carbine and magazine empty, he then wanted to see every document in my wallet and glove box. He eventually let me go on with the stern admonition that he was keeping an eye on me. My point of this long winded anecdote is that the people this job attracts are not the cream of law enforcement, let alone authorities on humane professional culling. I know an old couple who received a haystack elk carcass a few years ago near John Day, 3 holes, guts, brisket and earhole...I'll let you draw your own conclusions on that.
I have a good buddy who grew up in Tule Lake in the 50's and 60's and he said their game warden was an a-hole. Small community.....everyone knew everyone.....people (usually) not rulebreakers or poachers.....but he'd stop the same farmer 2-3x per day to check for loaded weapons in the vehicle. Wasn't well-liked. My buddy said it's good thing he never needed a hand out in the tall pineys......
I'm a life long Kalifornia resident and a life long hunter, since 1956. I've met dozens of our wardens and wildlife biologists. Sometimes it was an enforcement contact, sometimes I called them for information. Never met either type that was a jerk. BTW, I'm former law enforcement as well. I did hear of a forest service worker who was really bad. But that's another story. What I found is that they were always willing to take the time to answer questions and be generally helpful. Much of my success as a hunter is because these people are like that. Any hunter who does not take advantage of their willingness to be helpful, is missing a real chance to get some really helpful information. My experiences in Montana have been the same, BTW.
Still is, at least with one of my wild friends--who isn't so wild these days. He used a 7mm Remington Magnum when he was an outfitter, to help put down elk his clients wounded. But these days he hunts elk for meat, mostly cows, and prefers the .22-250 because it won't shoot through one cow elk in a herd and wound another.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I don’t remember a survey, but I do distinctly remember reading that certain game wardens personally used the .243 on elk. I also remember reading that one very popular guide used the .243 for everything and short the 70 grain Hornady Bullet.
That guide was probably Maury Jones of Jackson Hole Outfitters. He wrote this some 20 years ago:
Jackson Hole Outfitters Maury Jones, Box 117, Grover, Wy 83122 (307)886-3356 email December 1999 Newsletter
Ammo is as important as straight shooting and more important than caliber! I personally hand-load my .243 with 42.5 grains of Dupont 4895 behind a Hornady 75 grain hollowpoint. I've had it chronographed at 3510fps from my Husqvarna, and between my brothers, son, and I, we've killed more than 20 elk, 30 deer, two bears, and two moose with that load - in a .243!! Large caliber and heavy bullet is not the answer. If that were so we would still be shooting 500 grain punkin' balls in a 54 caliber muzzle-loader. Straight shooting and a very fast thin bullet will do much better. When that 75 grain pointy hollow-point smacks a rib cage, it penetrates about three inches and then it goes all to pieces, SPLAAT!, just like a shotgun shell going off in the boiler room. Does a lot of damage.
As far as the S. Carolina deer study, I have a copy of it. It's titled "Cedar Knoll Deer Study". I won't post the whole thing here, but you can find parts of it quoted online, like on this web page: http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/game_study.html. Please note there are some editor's comments included besides the actual data from the study.
For those who don't want to read the whole thing, I think this is what most will want to know:
"Some information is known regarding the weapon used in 444 of the 493 kills. The weapons used are grouped by caliber against the mean distance traveled for all kills (including instantaneous kills). In general, trends by caliber are weak, as might be expected. However, there are differences that must be considered significant, statistically speaking (if in no other sense). The smallest bore, .243 (6 mm) caliber, accounted for 10.8 % (48/444) of the documented kills, with an average distance traveled of 40 yards. This compares with 31 yards for .277 caliber (84/444, or 18.9 %), 26 yards for .284 (7 mm) caliber (160/444, or 36.0 %), and 33 yards for .308 caliber (116/444, or 26.1 %). Clearly, there is a slight increase in the mean travel distance for the .243 bore. Surprisingly, there is also a significant (statistically) difference between the .284 caliber and the .277 and .308 calibers, which are essentially the same. I am at a loss to explain this, particularly given the sample size. Even more striking is the case of the kills involving the .257 caliber, which make up only 8.1 % (36/444) and which have a mean travel distance of a mere 14 yards! Now to a certain extent this can be attributed to the small sample size. But it also clearly reflects some bias of behavior by the shooters or the weapons used in this caliber. Unfortunately, no further information is available on specific cartridges used or cross-correlations between calibers and hit locations.
The bullets used were loosely grouped into "soft" (e.g., Ballistic-Tip, Bronze Point, or light for caliber bullets) and "hard" (Partition, Grand Slam, X-Bullet, or heavy for caliber bullets) categories. There is a bit of a problem here because testing has demonstrated that the Nosler Partition is certainly not a hard bullet and produces very expansive wounds. Nevertheless, some trends are evident. Soft bullets, as defined, were used in 81.1 % of kills (360/444) and resulted in instantaneous kills 58 % of the time, with a mean travel distance (including instantaneous kills) of 27 yards. Hard bullets were used in 18.9 % of kills (84/444) and dropped the deer in its tracks only 40 % of the time, for a mean travel distance for all kills of 43 yards. Extracting the instantaneous kills from the total, the mean distances traveled by deer which ran when shot are 61 yards in the case of soft bullets and 70 yards for hard bullets. In other words, the soft bullets produced expansive wounds with a 50 % greater probability of dropping the game instantly, but if it ran the bigger wounds reduced the distance only by 13 %. Southern whitetails are not the appropriate game for the use of controlled expansion bullets."
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing -- Edmund Burke
Not exactly what your asking for, but here are the published results from the elk culling in Teddy Roosevelt NP 2010-2012. All the bullets are "lead free" FWIW.
