Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters JB - know of any surveys of game wardens?

John,

Awhile back I read an article about a survey done of game wardens. The subject was the game wardens' choice for elk hunting cartridges.

If I remember correctly, the most popular cartridge identified was the .243 Winchester. From what I recall, this surprised the author.

I believe there was some speculation as to the reasons why. For example, the game wardens see a lot elk and may have a higher percentage of shot opportunities. States may also have a preference for candidates with backgrounds in biology, which may lead to a greater understanding of elk anatomy, which was viewed as a benefit for shot placement, etc.

Anyway, do you know of this "survey" or any others along these lines, of game wardens and cartridge preference?

Thanks,

Jason

edit - for typos

Interesting! Unfortunately, I've never heard of that one.

Did know a long-time game warden here in Montana, who was often assigned by the game department to shoot haystack-raiding elk in the winter. (This was long before the so-called "shoulder season" solution appeared.) His favorite was the .220 Swift.

A bit tangential to your question, but I was blessed to stalk red deer stags in Scotland for many years. After the stag season the gamekeepers would cull up to the season’s unfilled quota of stags and a sizable number of hinds (females). Of course these aren’t as large as elk, but by far their favorite cartridge was “the two-four-three.”

They aren’t keen on recoil. I remember one telling me about the time a client made a bad shot with a 7mm Remington. As is their practice after a bad shot, the gamekeeper took the client’s rifle to kill the beast. He told me, “That thing knocked my shoulder near to Aberdeen!”

The late John Kingsley-Heath, the famous African professional hunter, preferred the .243 for shooting baited leopards, both for his own use and for his clients, for more than one reason: The light recoil allowed precise shot placement, 100-grain bullets expanded easily on the relatively light game, and didn't wreck the hide like larger cartridges.

Well, if the .243 is good then the .257 Roberts must be sublime! LOL!

The 243 is pretty popular with the locals in South Africa.

Yes, it is.

And even some visiting hunters have used it effectively on game supposedly far out of the .243 class.

A good friend who lives in West Virginia had been a life-long hunter, but didn't start hunting elsewhere until he was close to 50. He started making more money about then, and these days goes to Africa every year, often for several weeks. Eventually his wife decided she wanted to start hunting too, and instead of starting her out on hard-hunted WV whitetails, he took her to South Africa.

By then he knew enough to not believe in the "African game is super-tough" myth, and worked her up from a .22 rimfire to a .243, handloaded with 85-grain Nosler Partitions. She took three animals with one shot each, an impala, gemsbok and blue wildebeest. In the U.S. the impala would be considered OK .243 game, since they're about the size of an average whitetail, but gemsbok typically weigh 450-500 pounds and wildebeest 600-650, and are considered a couple of the really tough plains game. Yet they all fell shortly after taking a bullet close behind the shoulder. None were shot over 150 yards away, but there it is.

Thanks all, and John in particular, for responding.

I wish that I had that article. I've exhausted my online (Google) search skills. One of those situations where I wish I would have printed, or photocopied, the article and put it in a folder on my bookshelf

The motivation for finding the article/survey was to compare the opinion of a somewhat known set of hunters (game wardens) to some of the general/popular opinions of cartridge effectiveness on medium game.

My assumption is that those who have personally used, or have seen used, cartridges like the .243 Winchester (or similar) don't need anyone to tell them that it simply works. On elk, or similar size animals.

Jason

We have a lady hunter that's hunted with us for over 20 years, usually comes twice a year for one week of hunting, .243 user very good shot, always gets a Whitetail buck,and a exotic, this year she shot Gemsbok, at 314 yrds behind the ear---DRT, she's 76 years old, and is one of the best lady pistol shooters I have ever seen,I have a picture of her and her Gemsbok here some where. Rio7

That’s awesome RIo7.

I love seeing “seniors” who are healthy and active, and I love seeing women who can shoot and hunt.

She’s a badass on two levels!

Wayne Van Zwoll in "Elk and Elk Hunting" Chapter 12 discusses surveys extensively. Not only does he discuss his own annual survey but he references a 1939 survey by Washington Department of Game unearthed by Ray Croswell

4th point,

I don’t remember a survey, but I do distinctly remember reading that certain game wardens personally used the .243 on elk. I also remember reading that one very popular guide used the .243 for everything and short the 70 grain Hornady Bullet.

There was a study done herein S.C. about15 years ago where they tabulated the distance traveled after the shot for different calibers and also between cup and core Bullet’s and premiums. The .243 and 6mm did have a little longer animal travel but only by 3-4 yards. Interestingly, the .257 calibers had the least travel even compared to 30 caliber. The name of the plantation was called Cedar Knoll/ you can probably google it if you want.

I tried a 243 for one deer season, but only took four deer that year. The farthest one traveled was 40 yards and that was a poor liver shot. Two dropped at the shot and one made it about ten yards. All of those were taken with the 95NBT.

I have a good friend that hunts in the rolling hills here in S.C. and specifically hunts feed trees like White oaks so his shots are normally close ant the terrain more open than where I hunt. He has taken well over a hundred deer with his .243 and he loves the 100 grain Gameking. He said it normally does not exit at close range but the damage is wicked and they don’t go far.

Not a game warden, but for years I have used .243 A.I. to cull Elk cows and poor quality Bulls, depending on our survey number's about 6 to 10 Cows and 4 to 8 Bulls per year,contrary to the internet B.S. Elk are not hard to kill, hard to find yep, hard to see in the brush yep, hard to get a good shot at yep, hard to kill nope. Rio7

Why would game wardens be a valuable group to survey about cartridges for elk? Serious question. And don’t get me wrong one of my best friends is a Wyoming warden. Sure they see a lot of dead elk, but I don’t think they actually see very many shot. I doubt most of them see anymore elk shot than your average hunter. Maybe they do but I don’t think wardens in Wyoming kill many elk as official business outside of the odd injured animal and that has very little to do with hunting elk.

Did they in the past? Or am I just unaware of all these elk wardens are shooting?

Good question, Ralphie.

My interests, for why, are in the original post. The speculations.

I don't think they see more animals shot. I don't think anyone in this thread stated that.

Jason

Last fall I loaned my 6mm Rem to a ten year old hunter. I gave him a box of 50 rounds.....half of them were Hornady 100 gr BTSP and the other half were Nosler 55 grain BTs for prairie dogs. We had seven mule deer tags so decided to let the new hunter shoot a lot.....

I told him to shoot the "soft points" but he loved the pretty blue tips of the Ballistic tips and decided he'd shoot them.
\
Long story short: We filled six of the seven tags and the youngster filled four of them.....taking shots to 350 yards. Every one of them DRT....The most impressive deer shooting I've seen in my life. One can only imagine my surprise when I discovered that not a single 100 grain bullet had been fired.

Here wardens shoot a LOT of elk personally doing damage control kills (or at least they did 20 years ago). I pulled up one year to our place north of town. The GW was cleaning his bloody hands in the stream that runs through our place. In the back of his pickup were 6 cow elk he had just culled.

270 Win and factory 130's of course...

I guess there are game wardens...and then there are game wardens. Two years ago I had one stop me on a forest service road and ask if my carbine was loaded. I started to open the bolt for him whereupon, he not trusting me, took the Mannlicher and proceeded in macho ATF fashion to check it himself. Apparently he had not handled enough bolt guns to realize the safety had to be off to open the bolt. Growing visibly agitated, and his hard on wilting rapidly, after waving the muzzle around as he struggled, he eventually handed it back and commanded I open it. I complied. Carbine and magazine empty, he then wanted to see every document in my wallet and glove box. He eventually let me go on with the stern admonition that he was keeping an eye on me.
My point of this long winded anecdote is that the people this job attracts are not the cream of law enforcement, let alone authorities on humane professional culling. I know an old couple who received a haystack elk carcass a few years ago near John Day, 3 holes, guts, brisket and earhole...I'll let you draw your own conclusions on that.

Montana isn't California... we generally have excellent wardens.

I’d actually say that wyoming wardens are some of the best LEOs around.

I would bet that each of us here has probably had an experience with an individual in some form of law enforcement who had no business in being in that occupation. All occupations have their (hopefully small) share of individuals who are should not be so employed. To judge all members of any occupation, be it game warden, patrolman, teacher, lawyer, or even priest, by the actions of a few is very unfair to the rest.

Yep, you're right, that was my point, they probably represent the general population in every regard. As far as a body of qualified opinion on elk calibers, personally I'd take John Barsness' opinion 4 ways from Sunday and engrave it in stone.

Hear! Hear!

I'd guess wardens put their pants on the same way the rest of us do. I've hunted with local wardens and done a few squirrel shoots with one this spring. He did not bother to check zero with his rifle and shoots whatever ammo is cheapest on the other side of the counter. Not an exceptional shot by any means.

I know of no surveys.

I think that helps confirm that I'm not going crazy, or dreamed it up! Do you recall where you read it?

Thanks,

Jason

That seems like a good bit of data, RIO7. What was your preference for bullet(s), and shot placement?

Thanks,

Jason

Were you in Eastern Oregon?

Sounds like Ranger Miracle, of the BLM. Myself and a co-worker have run into him, separately. That really is his last name, and he does have some peculiar behavior. For example, he told my co-worker's Land Rover group that he'd been tracking them for days across the high desert, by their tire tracks. When asked why, he said something about drug smugglers. They told him they were a 4x4 offroad club, on vacation. He didn't believe them.

We still laugh about that guy every now and then.

Vapodog,

That was one of the best things I read all day, about the 10 year and his deer shooting. Awesome!

Jason

The 2 old good wardens we had retired. They were good guys who tried to work with people. The 2 new ones are strictly law enforcement. I figure give them a couple years to mellow and meet people and things will be back to normal. If there wasnt so much meth in our area they would probably be a lot more mellow to old farts like me. Cant say as I blame them.

I'm getting sidetracked, but the Joe Rogan podcast with John Nores was interesting. From what I understand, the State of California made game wardens fight illegal growers of cannabis. Sounds like jungle warfare.

I don't believe that scenarshooter or atse are exactly "game wardens" but I sure listen when they speak. JB is an invaluable source of good info based on real world experience. Maybe it is my charming presence but I have had nothing but pleasant encounters w/ any critter cop in the western US.


mike r

Actually game wardens in California are pressured to travel with the narcotic interdiction teams. The wardens have search powers that do not require a warrant, as is true in most states. Some of them really get into it, some wish they weren't involved. Part of my problem getting crosswise with wardens is, I'm a sorry looking son of a bitch, high and tight hair, scroungy old man beard, tattered clothing, wore out pickups, beater rifles...no tatoos or earrings or none of that but still, I can see 'em fuzz up when they get close enough to talk. 5 years ago I had one drive by my old tent, stop, back up and get out and brace me over a hawk feather in my Resistol. Illegal to possess non game animal parts he said. In the process he unsnapped his holster strap, that scared me. The short of it was, I handed over the feather and he told me he was "glad this didn't turn into a confrontation". That guy was primed . He called the Forest Service when he got back to the highway and turned me in for having a "fire". Forest Service cop didn't write me up because it was a woodstove in the tent. Land of the free, home of the brave.

Another myth often quoted.I had two wardens come to my house and demand to search my freezer.I kicked them out of my house and called the Sheriffs dept. to remove them for trespassing,which he did.They got to have probable cause just like any other cop.

Huntz...In Wisconsin yes. A quick google search will reveal: MOST states allow "warrantless searches" by game wardens. Fact. Calif allows it, it has been challenged many times in court, and the court has upheld it. You are fortunate to live in a state that doesn't. Do not presume to give legal advice, to everyone, everywhere. My neighbor was on a drug interdiction team for 20 or more years, on national TV reality show, Sgt Mike Gilley, Siskiyou Co Sheriffs Office, and they always drug a warden along on busts because of the wardens powers. In Calif, a warden can search any vehicle, structure or person without a warrant on the flimsiest pretext.

I have a good buddy who grew up in Tule Lake in the 50's and 60's and he said their game warden was an a-hole. Small community.....everyone knew everyone.....people (usually) not rulebreakers or poachers.....but he'd stop the same farmer 2-3x per day to check for loaded weapons in the vehicle. Wasn't well-liked. My buddy said it's good thing he never needed a hand out in the tall pineys......

I'm a life long Kalifornia resident and a life long hunter, since 1956. I've met dozens of our wardens and wildlife biologists. Sometimes it was an enforcement contact, sometimes I called them for information. Never met either type that was a jerk. BTW, I'm former law enforcement as well. I did hear of a forest service worker who was really bad. But that's another story.
What I found is that they were always willing to take the time to answer questions and be generally helpful. Much of my success as a hunter is because these people are like that. Any hunter who does not take advantage of their willingness to be helpful, is missing a real chance to get some really helpful information.
My experiences in Montana have been the same, BTW.

A favorite around the Townsend area back in the day was the 22-250.


At least with some of Dad's wild friends.

Still is, at least with one of my wild friends--who isn't so wild these days. He used a 7mm Remington Magnum when he was an outfitter, to help put down elk his clients wounded. But these days he hunts elk for meat, mostly cows, and prefers the .22-250 because it won't shoot through one cow elk in a herd and wound another.

That guide was probably Maury Jones of Jackson Hole Outfitters. He wrote this some 20 years ago:


Jackson Hole Outfitters Maury Jones, Box 117, Grover, Wy 83122 (307)886-3356 email
December 1999 Newsletter

Ammo is as important as straight shooting and more important than caliber! I personally hand-load my .243 with 42.5 grains of Dupont 4895 behind a Hornady 75 grain hollowpoint. I've had it chronographed at 3510fps from my Husqvarna, and between my brothers, son, and I, we've killed more than 20 elk, 30 deer, two bears, and two moose with that load - in a .243!! Large caliber and heavy bullet is not the answer. If that were so we would still be shooting 500 grain punkin' balls in a 54 caliber muzzle-loader. Straight shooting and a very fast thin bullet will do much better. When that 75 grain pointy hollow-point smacks a rib cage, it penetrates about three inches and then it goes all to pieces, SPLAAT!, just like a shotgun shell going off in the boiler room. Does a lot of damage.

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As far as the S. Carolina deer study, I have a copy of it. It's titled "Cedar Knoll Deer Study". I won't post the whole thing here, but you can find parts of it quoted online, like on this web page: http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/game_study.html. Please note there are some editor's comments included besides the actual data from the study.

For those who don't want to read the whole thing, I think this is what most will want to know:

"Some information is known regarding the weapon used in 444 of the 493 kills. The weapons used are grouped by caliber against the mean distance traveled for all kills (including instantaneous kills). In general, trends by caliber are weak, as might be expected. However, there are differences that must be considered significant, statistically speaking (if in no other sense). The smallest bore, .243 (6 mm) caliber, accounted for 10.8 % (48/444) of the documented kills, with an average distance traveled of 40 yards. This compares with 31 yards for .277 caliber (84/444, or 18.9 %), 26 yards for .284 (7 mm) caliber (160/444, or 36.0 %), and 33 yards for .308 caliber (116/444, or 26.1 %). Clearly, there is a slight increase in the mean travel distance for the .243 bore. Surprisingly, there is also a significant (statistically) difference between the .284 caliber and the .277 and .308 calibers, which are essentially the same. I am at a loss to explain this, particularly given the sample size. Even more striking is the case of the kills involving the .257 caliber, which make up only 8.1 % (36/444) and which have a mean travel distance of a mere 14 yards! Now to a certain extent this can be attributed to the small sample size. But it also clearly reflects some bias of behavior by the shooters or the weapons used in this caliber. Unfortunately, no further information is available on specific cartridges used or cross-correlations between calibers and hit locations.

The bullets used were loosely grouped into "soft" (e.g., Ballistic-Tip, Bronze Point, or light for caliber bullets) and "hard" (Partition, Grand Slam, X-Bullet, or heavy for caliber bullets) categories. There is a bit of a problem here because testing has demonstrated that the Nosler Partition is certainly not a hard bullet and produces very expansive wounds. Nevertheless, some trends are evident. Soft bullets, as defined, were used in 81.1 % of kills (360/444) and resulted in instantaneous kills 58 % of the time, with a mean travel distance (including instantaneous kills) of 27 yards. Hard bullets were used in 18.9 % of kills (84/444) and dropped the deer in its tracks only 40 % of the time, for a mean travel distance for all kills of 43 yards. Extracting the instantaneous kills from the total, the mean distances traveled by deer which ran when shot are 61 yards in the case of soft bullets and 70 yards for hard bullets. In other words, the soft bullets produced expansive wounds with a 50 % greater probability of dropping the game instantly, but if it ran the bigger wounds reduced the distance only by 13 %. Southern whitetails are not the appropriate game for the use of controlled expansion bullets."

Not exactly what your asking for, but here are the published results from the elk culling in Teddy Roosevelt NP 2010-2012. All the bullets are "lead free" FWIW.

TRNP Results