Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Ruffed Grouse Society fires biologists

Apparently they're restructuring and hiring foresters. Some of these folks have been with them for decades and are dedicated as they come. Feel bad for them.

Thats too bad. Been a member over 20 years

Just read their mail flyer announcing the new plan (in simplest of marketing style). Would be Interested to learn what the organization needs and (naturally) competing ideas were at issue.

Saw that. It kind of makes sense in that the biggest issue is habitat and a forester is going to have a bigger impact on improving that.

In the email today, said they intend to support research through partnerships with universities and such.

Rickshaw: I would disagree about the worth of RGS biologists. 2 years in a row I ran into 2 biologists driving around in 2 brand new pickup trucks adorned with the RGS logo a week before the annual grouse slaughter for dollars held in the same location every year. When I engaged them in a conversation about why the grouse numbers were so depressed in a year that was supposed to be the peak of the 10 year cycle they were dumbfounded. I asked them for any research about grouse and West Nile Virus and they said they had no research. I then queried them about why they did no testing for West Nile Virus when they cleaned the hundreds of birds as a result of their annual bird slaughter. Their response was that testing was voluntary and not required by the state. They were way more interested in pumping me for my best hunting spots because they were "guides" for the upcoming hunt.Based on my experience I say good riddance.

What State did this encounter happen in????

Who paid for the trucks?

Which two years?

MN RGS 2019/2018 I could give you the names of the biologists but I would consider negatively impacting their job search piling on.

Well, lets break it down....

First off, some change had to come, in that die hard grouse hunters have been throwing up red flags for years in Pa, WV, Ohio, NY, etc and essentially they have been ignored.

Second: Since you didn't answer who paid for the trucks, we have to think you didn't know....Therefore that part is immaterial....

Third, I was thinking Minnesota....so this Web posting by the Ruffed Grouse Society in 2019 opens some questions to your post....and if in fact the two you encountered were actually biologists....
in that it clearly shows the RGS society in 2019, and in Minnesota, was and is fully aware of the the possible impact of West Nile Virus on Ruffed Grouse populations, and were testing and doing research for answers....and in fact were testing Birds on that specific 2019 hunt....

https://ruffedgrousesociety.org/201...e-society-and-american-woodcock-society/


Fourth, referring it to a slaughter is also disingenuous to the facts. They killed 112 Grouse and the average was 1.8 Grouse per hunter....112/1.8 equals approximately 60 hunters participated in the 2 day hunt....
There has been more than once during the peak in Wisconsin that 6 of us has killed a little more than that in a week. Hunting In groups of two, each group was flushing between 50-70 Grouse per day....3x50 at the low end is 150 flushes per day....A slaughter is always relative to the numbers at hand....


End result, it is questionable regarding the individuals you encountered as being biologists from the RGS.,....

There's hardly any grouse left around here to manage/study anyway. We have good habitat just hardly any birds left. It's not just grouse either, the turkey population is way down too.

Battue or should I say Sherlock Holmes: Let's break it down: I did answered your questions. What does RGS mean to you? Look at my post number 14732180. What does MN mean? What does 2018/2019 mean to you. The biologists were driving identical white pick ups with the Ruffed Grouse Society logo on the sides of the trucks. Since you are such a RGS fanboy why don't you look at the annual expenses of RGS and find the entry for the cost of the vehicles plus the cost of the fuel driving 2 trucks from the east cost. I have in my hand the business cards that say Regional Biologist with the RGS logo on it. I have all ready explained to you why I won't post more specifics on an open forum.
Regarding the 2019 Grouse kill you are being "disingenuous to the facts" . The 2019 hunt was 112 grouse. The RGS has been holding the annual hunt in the same place since at least 1985. Why don't you show the annual kill for each year since 1985? Some years the grouse kill approaches 1000. How about you post where your best grouse areas are "outside the burgh" and I will bring 100 (the usual number of hunters in the annual hunt) of my closest friends each year for the next 35 years and pound the crap out of your coverts? It is not just a 2 day hunt. An article was published in American Hunter describing what a great time the author had at the hunt, He even named the road they parked on. For next 5 years that road was clobbered with trucks from TX AL NY NJ and various other states. It only abated when the 10 year cycle bottomed out and hunting was poor. About a week prior to and after the hunt expensive pick ups crisscross the area with dog boxes in the back pulling a trailer with UTVs driven by the lackey's of the wheelers and dealers who fly their aircraft into the airport for the hunt. Since you are a RGS fanboy why don't you publish the annual RGS donation required to be invited to the "Invitational Hunt"? Pick a year when grouse numbers are up to avoid being "disingenuous to the facts" .
RGS was forced to collect samples for West Nile Virus in 2019. Why did the RGS not test in 2018 when MN made sample kits available?
Since you claim RGS is "doing research for answers" please make links for those research papers available to us all. How many papers have been published by RGS biologists in the Journal of Wildlife Management?

Well now, you keep digging a hole....so lets look down into it...

Again first, if you reread my first sentence you wouldn't be using the fan boy comment.....but let me show it to you again.....




Then, you didn't answer the original question about the trucks with your first post....

This was your reply----you see any mention of trucks....of course you don't....




1985 was 35 years ago....Prime Grouse habitat doesn't last 35 years, so even if they killed none, without some habitat management you would have few Grouse there.....and for those years they killed 1000, well they did because they were there in those kinds of numbers.....doesn't mean you would have those kinds of numbers in other years without some land management......


How about we now discuss that cover and what happened and the people who participated in the hunt...

You may think that area is unique, but guess what...you thought wrong again....because the same thing happened here when the numbers were up.....And yes, the word got out where the RGS was having their hunt, and others hit the area hard.....So we went and hunted other covers and found our Birds....


As far as the these people:



Well, the same happened in the area we hunted in Wisconson....and it happened without the RGS's help....The word got out and in a couple years those pickup and trailers and license plates from most everywhere were there.....Birds got really spooky, but we just moved further into the woods than most wanted to go....and guess what? We found a lot of Birds, until the cycle took a downturn.....

Now about those fat cats that you seem so envious of....Wouldn't it be nice if we could be one of them? It would, but I don't begrudge them their place...And one of the reasons is I know a couple of them and what they contribute to wildlife conservation. I also know it means they put back birds for me and you down the road...

An example:

One of those guys, and passionate hunter, has donated in excess of $500,000 for Ruffed Grouse management....Here is an excerpt from a coffee table book that he gave to me...It is called : "From Sea to Shining Sea"

He has killed more than a few Grouse....maybe even some of them from your area.....but he has put back more than he has taken, many more....How about you? I wish we had more fat cats, that were willing to do the same....and less of those who are envious of others that make significant contributions for all of us.....Dwell for a moment on 400million, and that was up to 2002. It has grown since then and the guy being a hunter means he makes sure more than a little goes to hunting related activities....We need more like him....and for the vast majority of us, what he does goes unnoticed and unrecognized.....Damn, some dumb azz rich guy as of 2002, bought and donated back to us over 1,000,000 acres. Almost all of which was going to be developed.




So to sum it up....

I'm not a fan boy who can't see were they could have done better....and I have to look at this as an effort for them to do so....

I understand there will always be those who can do things and go places to hunt that are out of my reach....It has always been such and will always continue to be.....


Now, if you want to BS about your dissatisfaction with the RGS, BS all you want....However a little integrity thrown in will go far in having your thoughts being recognized and respected....


Addition: And for you Southern Quail boys look up "The Albany Quail Management Project". Millions came out of his pocket to study how Quail numbers can be increased in the South.....Just another damn Yankee....

[img]https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/galleries/14733823/plate[/img]

I was part of that from the beginning. I knew the people involved.

Battue: Speaking of BS I am still waiting for the answers to my questions:
1. Why don't you show the annual kill for each year since 1985?
2.publish the annual RGS donation required to be invited to the "Invitational Hunt"?
3. Why did the RGS not test in 2018 when MN made sample kits available?
4. Since you claim RGS is "doing research for answers" please make links for those research papers available to us all.
And since your buddy is such a philanthropist why not rotate the RGS hunt around every year to the "one million acres of land donated by the Richard King Mellon Foundation"?

I am not speaking for Battue. But I know a few that have made it to the hunts. I know a past President of RGS. The top echelon of RGS is and has always been made up of heavy hitters that none of use can relate to in $$$$$. I like what RGS does for the most part. I don't like the politics of the $$$$. But that is what they need to fund programs. Personally I don't think RGS needs to fund and staff biologist. I think money is much better spent in funding and employing foresters. Further more and just my opinion, I feel people with both these skillsets should be volunteering rather than being on payroll.

As for the actual numbers of kills each year from the hunt, I don't think Battue knows and I don't think he claims to know. I don't think many outside that tight circle knows! Because Battue is friends with someone doesn't mean he has the influential power or desire to make him move the hunts around where he feels they should be. Lets reel this back into reality.

BS???? is all you got...and now you want answers to Bull shiit questions to try and at least look like you have something pertinent to contribute....


1: I don't know the kill for over 35 years back and it is a BS question because it is immaterial..What do you want to tell me....you had more Birds in 85....I bet you did, and so did every other State that had a lot of Grouse....What's your point?....You don't flush as many Birds?..How long has WMV for example been infecting Bird....how has the habitat changed over years.....You tell me what States have more Grouse now than 1985....Tell me what effect a RGS hunt in all those States had on descending peaks since 1985.....The last isn't a trick question, but is relevant....Think on it....

2: Don't know and don't care....the hunt is one for the big donors and contributors....so what does that have to do with the issue....However, in case you have been self-distancing for a loooong time.....It is a normal way to raise conservation dollars...The SD Governors Pheasant Hunt, RMEF auctioning off hunts for trophy bulls-the big hitters win-Sheep tags that go for big money....The people at the Minn. hunt meet the donation requirement and get to participate.... and the goal is to have them continue to be big contributors, to add in the habitat studies and research...There is that word again....We will get back to it....

3: If you would have read the web page I posted, they said they did test in 2018....on a much smaller basis admittedly, but they did test....and it was the pilot year.....


4: As far as your rotating question.....it shows how low you will go to try and be relevant....the guy buys land and historical items for America....He recently bought the pistols LaFayette presented to Washington after the revolution....and they now reside in Fort Ligonier....He has no input on where, when or how the hunt is carried out.....He just gives money and equipment to the RGS to be used to make habitat....I'm sure you do something other than buy a license....and beetch....about others who actually contribute....

Now research.....read it and weep.....if you want the confirmation, I'm sure they will accommodate you with verification

“RESEARCH
Early RGS members realized that a broad base of research would be necessary to understand how to promote the kind of habitat in which ruffed grouse and woodcock thrive. Beginning in 1972 with a grant to Gordon Gullion, internationally recognized authority on grouse, RGS grants have supported several research projects, which have led to the creation of a number of publications. While some of these works deal with the biology of the game birds, others discuss grouse and woodcock habitat and guidelines for forest habitat management.

Gullion's Improving Your Forested Lands for Ruffed Grouse (revised as Managing Northern Forests For Wildlife), written with the assistance of the Minnesota Agriculture Experiment Station, was published by RGS in 1973.

Every RGS research project has been based on a matching-dollars incentive. Universities, state agencies and other groups share the cost, typically on a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio. Since 1972, RGS has provided more than $1 million to help sponsor at least 20 research projects in 18 states. One with the University of Missouri, for example, has shown the importance of oak-hickory forest as an acceptable alternative habitat for ruffed grouse where aspen is not abundant.

Results of the Missouri study, which looked at not only the needs of ruffed grouse but also forest songbirds, are reviewed in a technical report from the U.S. Forest Service. The work titled Management of Early-Successional Communities in Central Hardwood Forests (with special emphasis on oaks, ruffed grouse, and forest wildlife) is available without charge from the North Central Forest Experiment Station, Forest Service -- U.S. Department of Agriculture, 1992 Folwell Avenue, St. Paul, MN, 55108.

EDUCATION
Although research has always been an essential first step, there is also the need to get the Society's message out to forest landowners and managers and others interested in forest management techniques that benefit wildlife.

RGS hired its first regional director in 1979 to promote the Society's efforts in the Great Lakes states west of Ohio. Drawing upon RGS-supported research and the Society's publications, the new director dramatically increased the number of landowners and managers informed about the advantages of managing woodlands for wildlife. The new position was funded by the proceeds from RGS' Sportsmen's Banquets, held for the first time in 1978 at five localities.

In 1979, RGS established an on-site consultation program to assist landowners. While the program provided significant results, it was soon obvious that a much more comprehensive program was needed to meet growing needs. One promising approach that had the potential for reaching many more individuals than the on-site consultation effort was through the already existing Extension Service networks. Extension agents knew the owners of woodlands in their areas who were interested in conservation issues. The question was: how to make use of the Extension networks?

Ten projects were conceived and tested, with one considered outstanding in terms of effectiveness and economy. This was Coverts using the "each one teach one" approach.

Essentially, Coverts brings small groups of concerned private, non-industrial forest owners -- identified by the Extension offices -- together for three-day seminars on forest management techniques that emphasize conservation. As part of the seminars, the participants learn the value of spacing small cuts throughout a woodland when harvesting timber. Over time, as subsequent small cuts are made, an age diversity is created, which means plots of trees throughout the woodland are different sizes and provide different types of food and cover. This not only ensures a steady harvest of forest products but also creates ideal habitat for many kinds of forest wildlife.

In exchange for the training provided during the seminars, the landowners agree to actively promote forest wildlife habitat improvement in their communities for at least a year.

Indicating how effective Coverts is, the first 142 workshop participants in Connecticut Coverts brought RGS forest management techniques to their own 9,609 forested acres; accomplished the same for another 111,119 acres belonging to sportsmen's clubs, land trusts and outdoor education centers; organized 106 community group presentations of forest wildlife management with a total audience of 3,113 people; gave 125 instructional tours of their own woodlots; provided information one-on-one to more than 4,300 individuals, including more than 2,000 woodland owners; published 104 newspaper or magazine articles in addition to television and radio programs on forest wildlife management; taught more than 750 youth about wildlife conservation through Scouts, 4-H and the NRA hunter education program; and contributed 6,800 hours of volunteer time promoting and encouraging wildlife management.

HABITAT DEVELOPMENT
In 1986, the Society began to implement practical programs directly funded by RGS to develop habitat for grouse and woodcock. Early in its history, leaders of the Society had decided that RGS could not effectively purchase land for grouse and woodcock management because too much land is needed to significantly influence populations of the birds. As an alternative, RGS turned its attention to public forest lands and began devising ways to efficiently make a positive impact for wildlife on these public woodlands. Public forested lands, which comprise only a minor portion of the woodlands in the East and Northeast, account for nearly half of the forested lands in the north-central states of Minnesota and Wisconsin. The decision was made to begin the program by concentrating efforts in the western Great Lakes region, and to add states as funding became available.

Economic harvesting of timber is a major consideration of many public forest overseers. Because the benefit to grouse and woodcock is in small-block timber harvesting, and most timber harvesters prefer to harvest in large blocks, the Society assists public land managers in several ways. These include: providing funding to build roads through public forest lands, thereby reducing the costs and promoting small-block cutting; providing technical assistance (professionally trained personnel) to help implement small-block cutting; helping to maintain timber access roads in readiness for future cutting by seeding to minimize erosion; and giving financial assistance to shearing alder brush to promote habitat suitable for ruffed grouse and woodcock. By helping a public agency meet the costs of preparing a site for timbering, RGS is able to influence large areas of wildlife habitat.

INTRODUCTION / REINTRODUCTION
Perhaps one of the most intriguing programs in which the Society is involved is the introduction / reintroduction of ruffed grouse. In several locations, the Society has been instrumental in helping bring back ruffed grouse populations to areas where they disappeared with the loss of habitat. The Society is also helping to establish ruffed grouse in suitable areas where they have not historically occurred.”