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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper


And in the real world you might have to mix and match, such as firing a fast string at 5 yards, followed up with a head shot at 15 or 20 yards. How many practice that kind of a transition?


That's where the gun games help, as you know.


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Originally Posted by Cheyenne
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper


And in the real world you might have to mix and match, such as firing a fast string at 5 yards, followed up with a head shot at 15 or 20 yards. How many practice that kind of a transition?


That's where the gun games help, as you know.


Some, but the rules build in some bad habits too. Be careful how much you rely on gun games to teach/train gunfighting skills. Fight-focused training/practice/whatever you want to call it is very different than competition. But yes, there are some shooting skills that competition is good for developing, like you said.

My main point here is that carrying a pistol is about being prepared for a fight; it's not about scores or rules or planning how to shoot a stage. Shooting is only a small part of that fight-ready mindset; too many guys get overly focused on shooting and neglect the rest of it.

Last edited by Yondering; 04/02/20.
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We more often than not throw in a 50 yard plate. Our range requires us to shoot no closer than 13 yards unless we walk out there. We usually stagger targets from 13 to 20 yards with the 50 just in case you get bored.

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Unless one is doing work that puts them in extra danger smaller gun makes more sense. Smaller gun especially hammer-fired DAO offers more concealment options and can be deployed more quickly.

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Originally Posted by Yondering
Originally Posted by Cheyenne
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper


And in the real world you might have to mix and match, such as firing a fast string at 5 yards, followed up with a head shot at 15 or 20 yards. How many practice that kind of a transition?


That's where the gun games help, as you know.


Some, but the rules build in some bad habits too. Be careful how much you rely on gun games to teach/train gunfighting skills. Fight-focused training/practice/whatever you want to call it is very different than competition. But yes, there are some shooting skills that competition is good for developing, like you said.

My main point here is that carrying a pistol is about being prepared for a fight; it's not about scores or rules or planning how to shoot a stage. Shooting is only a small part of that fight-ready mindset; too many guys get overly focused on shooting and neglect the rest of it.


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Originally Posted by Slavek
Unless one is doing work that puts them in extra danger smaller gun makes more sense. Smaller gun especially hammer-fired DAO offers more concealment options and can be deployed more quickly.


I have to disagree with your assertion that a small gun deployed more quickly. For me, it's much easier, and hence quicker, to get a proper grip on a full sized frame. As for carry options, I live in Colorado, so most of our weather provides plenty of leeway to dress around a 15 round 9mm frame. For what I need, I find such guns provide a good balance between concealment and capabilities.

Where you live, or for your hand size, that might not be the case, but for me, it's what generally works best.


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Originally Posted by Yondering
Originally Posted by Cheyenne
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper


And in the real world you might have to mix and match, such as firing a fast string at 5 yards, followed up with a head shot at 15 or 20 yards. How many practice that kind of a transition?


That's where the gun games help, as you know.


Some, but the rules build in some bad habits too. Be careful how much you rely on gun games to teach/train gunfighting skills. Fight-focused training/practice/whatever you want to call it is very different than competition. But yes, there are some shooting skills that competition is good for developing, like you said.

My main point here is that carrying a pistol is about being prepared for a fight; it's not about scores or rules or planning how to shoot a stage. Shooting is only a small part of that fight-ready mindset; too many guys get overly focused on shooting and neglect the rest of it.


I agree, gun games have some benefit, but many things required in gun games will get you killed in a real fight. I especially dislike what using cover/and concealment looks like in IDPA. But, since I’m not gonna win anyway, I shoot the scenarios more tactically sound and just eat the penalties.

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Always been that way. I have big hands. They don't lend well to manipulation of tiny guns in stressful situations. I still most often find myself carrying a Sign 226 in 357 with one spare


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Originally Posted by Gooch_McGrundle
Originally Posted by Yondering
Originally Posted by Cheyenne
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper


And in the real world you might have to mix and match, such as firing a fast string at 5 yards, followed up with a head shot at 15 or 20 yards. How many practice that kind of a transition?


That's where the gun games help, as you know.


Some, but the rules build in some bad habits too. Be careful how much you rely on gun games to teach/train gunfighting skills. Fight-focused training/practice/whatever you want to call it is very different than competition. But yes, there are some shooting skills that competition is good for developing, like you said.

My main point here is that carrying a pistol is about being prepared for a fight; it's not about scores or rules or planning how to shoot a stage. Shooting is only a small part of that fight-ready mindset; too many guys get overly focused on shooting and neglect the rest of it.


I agree, gun games have some benefit, but many things required in gun games will get you killed in a real fight. I especially dislike what using cover/and concealment looks like in IDPA. But, since I’m not gonna win anyway, I shoot the scenarios more tactically sound and just eat the penalties.



My feelings exactly... Back in the 1970s to the mid-1980s when the GamesMen took over, IPSC was what IDPA came to be but with FAR less rules. Made no difference if if you shot revolver or semi-auto, 9mm or .45...just make the PowerFactor and you were golden... Then the GamesMen came in with the comps, magwells one could drive a semi into and suddenly all the tactics were gone...

When IDPA was announced I was really happy as I had dropped out of IPSC years before... I called and got the rule book and half way through the book threw it in the trash...just another game. I have shot some IDPA at a club near me but like Gooch, shoot it on my terms not theirs...go ahead a give me penalties...all you want...and I still don't come in last...

Bob

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Originally Posted by Slavek
Unless one is doing work that puts them in extra danger smaller gun makes more sense. Smaller gun especially hammer-fired DAO offers more concealment options and can be deployed more quickly.


Every time you type something you sound dumber


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Originally Posted by Slavek
Unless one is doing work that puts them in extra danger smaller gun makes more sense. Smaller gun especially hammer-fired DAO offers more concealment options and can be deployed more quickly.



That's pure nonsense.....................

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Apparently a summation of Wyatt Earp's philosophy about gunfights was "Fast is fine..but accuracy is final". And it is worth noting that Wyatt Earp did not die in any gunfight but rather at home at the age of 80.

We don't live in Wyatt Earp's society nor are we limited to his gun technology now, but have many choices and philosophies to choose from. There are opinions about high capacity mags and size of the pistols used being critical to the decisions we make about what and how to carry.

After reviewing my skills that would be used in a actual gunfight I found them to be seriously wanting. I am above average shot with a handgun but not trained nor active in combat type shooting events. I know I need more training and that's ok.

However it seems prudent to think that whatever we carry, whether it be large and high cap or small and minimum rounds, is to .............be accurate.

Carry what we shoot accurately.

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Originally Posted by MontanaMan
Originally Posted by Slavek
Unless one is doing work that puts them in extra danger smaller gun makes more sense. Smaller gun especially hammer-fired DAO offers more concealment options and can be deployed more quickly.



That's pure nonsense.....................

MM

Certainly the idea that they can be deployed more quickly is nonsense. Much easier to handle full sized guns.

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Originally Posted by MontanaMan
Originally Posted by Slavek
Unless one is doing work that puts them in extra danger smaller gun makes more sense. Smaller gun especially hammer-fired DAO offers more concealment options and can be deployed more quickly.



That's pure nonsense.....................

MM


Small light-weight DAO revolver can be fired from inside of jacket pocket (S&W 340,342,...). Obviously this can only be done at very close range defensive encounter. One up for the revolver and quicker guy......one down for the slower and.....

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Can you even own a handgun over there?


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Slavek's mindless assertion aside, there are a lot of old myths still being promulgated. The old horseshit that "gun games will get you killed on the street" is mostly promoted by the uninformed. The games are tests of speed, accuracy, gun handling and problem solving not tactics. Those skills are handy when applied to good tactics. Go shoot an USPSA match and make only A zone hits and finish in the upper 30% if you want a challenge that is close to realistic. Slow is just slow, modern standards call for surgical shooting quickly and the cool guys can do it while moving quickly.

There is a whole new world of capabilites out there that are well proven in the real world. To fail or choose to recognize and take advantage of hard won knowledge is obtuse. No one is saying it is easy but it is fun to try to improve constantly, if you think you are good enough you probably aren't.


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Good post.

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Originally Posted by Cheyenne
No change here. For reasons stated by TRH, I liked the Glock 26 until the Sig P365 replaced it. They both shoot well at distance, with the edge to the lighter, almost single action trigger of the Sig. I can't say that I would go someplace with a Glock 19 that I wouldn't go with the Sig.


^^^This^^^

Very comfortable 95% of the time with my Sig P-365
Best “small” carry gun I’ve owned in a long time. With the 12 round mag installed and one in the chamber + a spare 15 rounder in my pocket I feel pretty well armed. It’s accurate, reliable, and very concealable too.

That being said, my Glock 32, an AR-15, and a 870 Tac 14 12 ga reside permanently in my truck. Which I’m never far away from. 🤠


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Originally Posted by lvmiker
Slavek's mindless assertion aside, there are a lot of old myths still being promulgated. The old horseshit that "gun games will get you killed on the street" is mostly promoted by the uninformed. The games are tests of speed, accuracy, gun handling and problem solving not tactics. Those skills are handy when applied to good tactics. Go shoot an USPSA match and make only A zone hits and finish in the upper 30% if you want a challenge that is close to realistic. Slow is just slow, modern standards call for surgical shooting quickly and the cool guys can do it while moving quickly.

There is a whole new world of capabilites out there that are well proven in the real world. To fail or choose to recognize and take advantage of hard won knowledge is obtuse. No one is saying it is easy but it is fun to try to improve constantly, if you think you are good enough you probably aren't.


mike r


Very good post. Practice is important that is why members of special units practice all the time using big guns. They use guns to make a living, therefore, they need to be fast and accurate.

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Originally Posted by JCMCUBIC
I'm still rolling with either the P365, G19, or G23. I'm comfortable with any of them and like them....mainly the 365 now. I'm not traveling to cities currently but when I was, and if I had to now, I'd have whichever of those previous models on my right hip and an LCR in left front pocket.


Yep. Still carry a Ruger LCP 380 in my left front pocket. Old habits die hard. 🤠

Last edited by chlinstructor; 04/04/20.

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