Even Savage's own catalog often to not have fully accurate pictures.
Boy, ain't that the truth.
“The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
I just see an R that is drilled and tapped for bases that were cataloged by, and could be purchased from Lyman, to mount a target scope. The Lyman Y,V,and W block fit over the cocking indicator and the B, BT and maybe one or two more were a special tapered base to fit the barrel.
Those bases also fit the holes on a Spiegel rifle, but that doesn't connect any rifle drilled and tapped for a Lyman scope to the catalog company.
"We're all going to have so much [bleep] fun we'll need plastic surgery to remove our god damn smiles." - Clark Griswold
I just see an R that is drilled and tapped for bases that were cataloged by, and could be purchased from Lyman, to mount a target scope. The Lyman Y,V,and W block fit over the cocking indicator and the B, BT and maybe one or two more were a special tapered base to fit the barrel.
Those bases also fit the holes on a Spiegel rifle, but that doesn't connect any rifle drilled and tapped for a Lyman scope to the catalog company.
Good observation!
"The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle." John Stapp - "Stapp's Law" "Klaatu barada nikto"
Just a few is too small of a sample to do more than guess at what they are.
Last edited by Calhoun; 04/07/20.
“The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
The early 1899 catalogs showed pictures of 1895's. Therefore the mistaken idea that early 1899 carbines had barrel bands. About 1930 the catalog showed a variation of the 99H that never existed, etc...
wyo1895 With Savage never say never. For a copy of my book on engraved Savage lever actions rifles send a check for $80 to; David Royal, p.o. box 1271, Pinedale, Wy., 82941. I will sign and inscribe the book for you. [email protected]
This catalog has two models listed, the pictures are not 100% accurate, the front scope block is shown in the wrong place on the EG and the H is totally wrong. This is the first catalog I have seen showing scopes and the only one with Marlin, later catalogs have Mossberg scopes but there are a few catalog issues missing from my list.
This catalog has two models listed, the pictures are not 100% accurate, the front scope block is shown in the wrong place on the EG and the H is totally wrong. This is the first catalog I have seen showing scopes and the only one with Marlin, later catalogs have Mossberg scopes but there are a few catalog issues missing from my list.
Those bases also fit the holes on a Spiegel rifle, but that doesn't connect any rifle drilled and tapped for a Lyman scope to the catalog company.
True, but it doesn't exclude them either. You've seen my 99EG/303 that is drilled as such with no other apparent Spiegelisms. Is it Spiegel? Is it Lyman? Or something else? Not that it is agreeable but they are all lumped into the same group at the moment.
I suspect over the period of the years/catalogs Gene listed a person could order a Savage rifle, D&T'd for a Spiegel catalog scope with no other options. That would fit for my rifle.
Or they could order a Spiegel, roll stamp, D&T'd, swivel studs. Maybe other options.
And/or the legend of Salesman's samples could be in the mix as well. Possibly just a Savage thing.
Were Lyman scope bases sold exclusively on "Spiegel" rifles? If not there are Spiegels and then there are just rifles drilled for Lyman scope blocks, that's all.
_______________________________________________________ An 8 dollar driveway boy living in a T-111 shack
Those bases also fit the holes on a Spiegel rifle, but that doesn't connect any rifle drilled and tapped for a Lyman scope to the catalog company.
True, but it doesn't exclude them either. You've seen my 99EG/303 that is drilled as such with no other apparent Spiegelisms. Is it Spiegel? Is it Lyman? Or something else? Not that it is agreeable but they are all lumped into the same group at the moment.
I suspect over the period of the years/catalogs Gene listed a person could order a Savage rifle, D&T'd for a Spiegel catalog scope with no other options. That would fit for my rifle.
Or they could order a Spiegel, roll stamp, D&T'd, swivel studs. Maybe other options.
And/or the legend of Salesman's samples could be in the mix as well. Possibly just a Savage thing.
Pith helmet? That's a Spiegel helmet!!
...like sorting a can of worms......
I would sum it up by saying the holes on that 99 were consistent with what's found on Spiegel 99s. The only grouping you are making is that of 99s that share similar characteristics regardless of their origin - be it Spiegel, Lyman, Joe the Gunsmith, or what have you.... And did Spiegel really sell pith helmets?
"The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle." John Stapp - "Stapp's Law" "Klaatu barada nikto"
I think the inset of the man in the pith helmet shooting a 99 is from an ad that Savage used, I'm sure I've seen it before (PS - Spiegel did not sell the helmets from what I've seen). On the next page in that catalog is an small unlabeled picture of Roy Chapman Andrews from another advertisement, in another Spiegel catalog they mention that Savage's were used by Roy Chapman Andrews.
A set of Lyman scope mounts on a M1903 doesn't make it a sniper rifle, a rifle drilled for a commercially available T7 mount isn't presumed to be factory, an 1899B drilled for weaver mounts doesn't become a post 1950 manufacture.
If you are going to lump that rifle in with the Spiegel Rifles because of the holes, than lets agree that its drilled for a Belding and Mull scope mount, and that it was purchased for Unicorn hunting in Narnia. Buy me some rum and Ill type up the factory letter!
Last edited by Grogel_Deluxe; 04/08/20.
"We're all going to have so much [bleep] fun we'll need plastic surgery to remove our god damn smiles." - Clark Griswold
A set of Lyman scope mounts on a M1903 doesn't make it a sniper rifle, a rifle drilled for a commercially available T7 mount isn't presumed to be factory, an 1899B drilled for weaver mounts doesn't become a post 1950 manufacture.
If you are going to lump that rifle in with the Spiegel Rifles because of the holes, than lets agree that its drilled for a Belding and Mull scope mount, and that it was purchased for Unicorn hunting in Narnia. Buy me some rum and Ill type up the factory letter!
I love this post^^^^^^
YMMV
_______________________________________________________ An 8 dollar driveway boy living in a T-111 shack
If you are going to lump that rifle in with the Spiegel Rifles because of the holes, than lets agree that its drilled for a Belding and Mull scope mount, and that it was purchased for Unicorn hunting in Narnia. Buy me some rum and Ill type up the factory letter!
I don't think anybody is saying any of that.
The rifle is drilled similar to a Spiegel on top. Similar to. Not "It's a Spiegel".
The couple of prewar R's we've seen with those holes on top also have a Weaver T7 side mount. It's a pattern based on an extremely small sample. Not "It's factory", or "It's Spiegel".
Whereas the 4 or 5 99H's that we've seen with the top drilled "similar to" the Spiegel EG's do NOT have a Weaver T7 side mount, iirc. Again, another pattern based on very small sample. triple_deuce has/had a 99H set up exactly like a non-stamped EG: studs, d&t on top. Even though it's exactly like a non-stamped Spiegel, that doesn't mean it is Spiegel.
Last edited by Calhoun; 04/08/20.
“The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
If you are going to lump that rifle in with the Spiegel Rifles because of the holes, than lets agree that its drilled for a Belding and Mull scope mount, and that it was purchased for Unicorn hunting in Narnia. Buy me some rum and Ill type up the factory letter!
Select all that apply: a - Covid Shut-in Syndrome (CSS) b - Minnesota nice c - Other, please explain (Pssst......everyone knows Unicorns come from Mesopotamia)
Seriously, I for one would be happy to put that D&T pattern in Spiegel, Lyman, Belding & Mull or whoever if data exists. A person could declare a category, drive a stake in the ground & defend it to the death, or write their own book. Neither of which prove anything.
(This is not my original post, changed due the the way this thread seemed to be going)
From what I have seen the suggestion that the hole pattern on the Spiegel guns was for a Belding & Mull scope came long before there was any information suggesting any other use and seems to be only based on a guess as to what they were for. Now that there is more information about these rifles I feel the Belding & Mull mount fitting these holes is very unlikely, their other similarly attached scope mounts do not use a hole pattern anywhere close on the front and I would doubt they would change that to fit someone else's rather uncommon pattern that would weaken the attachment of their front mount.
PS my original post seemed to be way of topic, based on the way this thread developed, I actually tried to post some information on the blocks used on these rifles that I thought some might find useful, even had a scan of the Lyman scope block codes & applications that may have helped someone looking for blocks.
Last edited by GeneB; 04/09/20. Reason: totally changed it
I feel smart and powerful here behind my keyboard tapping my inner Jed and i dont think any of you will drive to MN to slap me properly, and The subject still riles me like an old fool because one comment here years ago became fact (made it into Dave's book) and I should just let it go.
"We're all going to have so much [bleep] fun we'll need plastic surgery to remove our god damn smiles." - Clark Griswold
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