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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,264
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,264 |
Have ran way less boats than most of you, but have always had a Jon boat with a jet since I was 16. Owned 4. 2 were riveted and had outboard motors. 1 welded with inboard jet, and now a welded with outboard jet.
Both of my riveted boats at one point or another developed leaks, but were very easy to repair and work on. Both light, and cheap compared to welded.
My welded boats have never leaked or cracked despite hard use fishing shallow rocky rivers. They have taken some serious abuse. But they are more expensive and heavier
I say pick what specs matter most to you then decide. Need a lightweight cheaper boat that may develop some leaks here and there then go riveted. For me I’m gonna stay welded for my uses and needs, but honestly had no problem dealing with riveted boats.
I will say it was nice having a riveted 15/52 with a 40/30 jet. If need be two guys could pick it up and carry it to the river/trailer then put motor on.
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 5,608
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 5,608 |
Everything can fail and will fail given enough time and hard use.
I worked as a test engineer in a group with applied mechanics engineers and stress analysis engineers for a global machine manufacturer. Even with advanced FEA, and physical stress testing, we'd still have failures in the field. I can't imagine some of these small, consumer grade, boat manufacturers having the same amount of resources to do this level of virtual and physical testing. They may not even fully understand the load cases. At least that was my assumption, after hearing about all the welded boat failures from friends and co-workers. I believe the major boat makers have done their tests. I have toured Alumaweld, Boulton , and Duckworth manufacturing sites, each has a engineer on staff! To assume they dont know how to build good products, is just nonsense! The guys still in business after years of building welded boats, know what they are doing! To assume they dont isnt logical! If one hasnt examined the damage or failures, their guessing! Experience trumps opinions everytime!
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284 |
Everything can fail and will fail given enough time and hard use.
I worked as a test engineer in a group with applied mechanics engineers and stress analysis engineers for a global machine manufacturer. Even with advanced FEA, and physical stress testing, we'd still have failures in the field. I can't imagine some of these small, consumer grade, boat manufacturers having the same amount of resources to do this level of virtual and physical testing. They may not even fully understand the load cases. At least that was my assumption, after hearing about all the welded boat failures from friends and co-workers. I believe the major boat makers have done their tests. I have toured Alumaweld, Boulton , and Duckworth manufacturing sites, each has a engineer on staff! To assume they dont know how to build good products, is just nonsense! The guys still in business after years of building welded boats, know what they are doing! To assume they dont isnt logical! If one hasnt examined the damage or failures, their guessing! Experience trumps opinions everytime! If I lived in the PNW, I think I'd have a Duckworth. They make one helluva boat, it appears.
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 17,863
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 17,863 |
I have toured Alumaweld, Boulton , and Duckworth manufacturing sites, each has a engineer on staff! To assume they dont know how to build good products, is just nonsense! The guys still in business after years of building welded boats, know what they are doing! To assume they dont isnt logical! If one hasnt examined the damage or failures, their guessing! Experience trumps opinions everytime!
!!!!!! 😉
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 17,863
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 17,863 |
Everything can fail and will fail given enough time and hard use.
... and usually at the most inopportune time.
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 17,863
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 17,863 |
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,743
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,743 |
Yeah, busy day the end of July, they were peaking on tourist flow. Pretty impressive line-up though. don't know where else one might see such a congregation of vintage aircraft. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/xhiIEIa.jpg)
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 17,863
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 17,863 |
Great pic. Probably won’t be replicated this summer.
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,743
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,743 |
The bears will appreciate that....
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,909
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2010
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In 24 years of ocean service, crabbing in December also, my old riveted Starcraft has never had a loose rivet. The Pacific Coast north of Cape Mendocino and south of Coos Head is not very pacific. The access to open ocean is over bars. The Rogue River bar at Gold Beach is legendary. The Starcrafts are the proven boats, I believe of the Walleye fisherman on the Great Lakes which I believe blows up as steep and quick as any water in North America.
The technology of tig welding has improved over the years, but I am not aware of any welded aircraft, I personally have ridden tens of thousands of miles in Alaska and the Aleutians in my company's DC-3, it was 50 years old when they bought it. Finally. Someone gets it. Tip of the hat sir... Wrong The reason for a riveted hull over a welded comes down to weight. If you want or need a light boat you go with a riveted hull, if weight isn't a factor and you want less worries you go welded. Edit: Second reason for a lot of people is price. A riveted hull is cheaper in general terms. Aircraft structures are not welded because of load distribution. A weld the load is all in one place directly on the weld. A riveted (to include all fastener types) structure transfers the load to the entire structure. Seams are overlapped and in most cases terminate at a Bulkhead, Longerons, strings, stiffeners, and other heavy aircraft fittings. Show me a cargo ship that isn't welded! All fasteners loosen over time from both load and temperature changes. Boat hull rivets absolutely loosen and leak! You got that 1/2 right, does that make yu 1/2 wrong? It is 100% right. I could have given more details as to other reasons fasteners are used over welds but really no need to. But yes I did leave out that welds add a lot of weight to the aircraft. A normal rivet pitch of AD rivets weights a fraction of a weld. Even Hi-Loks weight less than a weld would. Fasteners are removable and replaceable. Though most do not properly replace working rivets. Some will try to buck them more, others will remove and replace with the same nominal size. When they should be going one over, so a repair rivet is the proper way to go about it. Unless of course the hole is a full size or close enough to step up to the next nominal. Another factor is in some places shear or Tension fasteners are required. But that is getting way into things. Bottom line is a welded Aluminum Hull is a better route unless weight is a deciding factor. The edit helped, good for you, not all fasteners loosen, not all riveted boats will leak, welded is great but besides weight price is a factor, glad i could clear this up for you You might want to reread what I wrote as I said " A riveted hull is cheaper in general terms." Yes all fasteners will loosen and or work given the time and loads being applied. I have seen them all and replaced them all. From DD's, E, Hucks, Hi-Loks, you name it they will work over time. Yes all riveted hulls will leak. Metal expands and contracts with temperature period! That will create enough to allow water to seep. You cleared nothing up. Welded Hull Trumps Riveted Hull in everything except weight and price. Weight and price, finally we can agree.... fyi... i have a handful of fasteners i have had to cut off, never gonna loosen, ever. Don't suppose you've seen any of them ever... Leaky riveted boat's... all of them... oh my gawd, whats this world coming to? Metal expanding and contracting. rivets expanding & contracting... and glory be all at different rates...! Amazing chit, yer pretty funny guy, good imagination anyway...! Cats sleeping with dogs!!!!!!!
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 20,824
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 20,824 |
I have decided John is too stupid to own a boat.........
Originally Posted by Judman
PS, if you think Trump is “good” you’re way stupider than I thought! Haha
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,849
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,849 |
Off topic, but hell it's been almost a week. Please ID the three aircraft in foreground. Hi-wing, single engine, multiple side windows, mid fuselage entry door, pointy nose. Turbine power?
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 3,601
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 3,601 |
Ive owned both. I’d be more concerned with layout and the transom. Lunds are riveted and do just fine on the great lakes. Living in the PNW, I had an Alumaweld and fished the open ocean quite a bit. Fishing seasons started to get cut short and my Alumaweld was a pig for anything but trolling. So I sold it as my needs changed. Now I own a Lund and its been great for lakes and big slow rivers like the Columbia and Snake. Its a lot easier to control using a bow mount.
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 17,863
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 17,863 |
Off topic, but hell it's been almost a week. Please ID the three aircraft in foreground. Hi-wing, single engine, multiple side windows, mid fuselage entry door, pointy nose. Turbine power? Turbine de Havilland DHC-3 Otter. There’s a Cessna 206 in there as well.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,849
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,849 |
Thank you very much. I was going to guess re powered Beaver. But the lines were too clean to be a conversion.
My knowledge of AC is about what one can gain perusing an old coffee table book. And a bit of Google-fu. Which by the way tells me those plane are about 60 years old, they only made 466 of them and you have three lined up there. Very, Very impressive.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,743
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,743 |
They are conversions... ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/scmN3uZ.jpg)
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,849
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,849 |
Thanks again. I was just doing a bit of research. on the Beaver, Otter, and Twin Otter.
interesting and impressive aircraft.
That is certainly a clean looking conversion. Is that supported by some remnant of DeHaviland Corp, or all aftermarket parts.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,743
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,743 |
I'll guess at the conversion being all after market parts, but that's just a guess.
My experience with these aircraft is limited to touring Bush Alaska in them.
But I am looking at a piston out of a Beaver sitting on a shelf across from me right now that I've re-purposed as a bookend.
The Grumman Goose and Widgeon fall into that era and are also some what commonly seen being used for Bush Alaska transportation.
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 13,354
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 13,354 |
It is an aftermarket STC. DeHaviland was long gone when that came out. Though one could argue they are still around and to a degree would be correct. Looks like a Texas Turbine Conversion, but I am in no way an expert of Otters and Beavers. Great aircraft.
Eat Fish, Wear Grundens, Drink Alaskan.
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,593
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,593 |
I have decided John is too stupid to own a boat......... Simply awesome And you may be right as I still don't own one...
"Chances Will Be Taken"
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