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Originally Posted by Mr_TooDogs

That's a nice clean looking flame. Did you make that? Any hints or guidance for us to do the same? It'd be nice to rig up a DNA-fueled lamp to have less soot on the cases. I looked at some cheap ones on Amazon but none of them seem to produce as nice aflame as yours.
Thanks,
Rex

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Originally Posted by TRexF16
Did you make that? Any hints or guidance for us to do the same?

There's a link in his post.

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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
....I had some .30-06 cases from a manufacturer they listed, and it over-annealed those, which required a couple firings before they returned to normal.


MD, I have brought a few back to normal by simply running the case necks back and forth into the neck portion of the sizing die and back over the neck and expander ball without removing the case from the die. At least that seems to work.

Have you ever tried that? Five or six cycles, and the necks are back to where they should be.

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Ted,

No, I haven't, mostly because I've only encountered over-annealed brass once. But it makes sense!


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer

As noted, I have tried a number of annealing techniques, but still use the candle method on occasion when only a few cases need to be done, because "set up" time is so quick.



This is the same reason I like using the candle method, or slightly modified version to save my poor fingers. I usually anneal 20-50 brass at a time just before I prep and reload them and it is quick and easy to setup and do the job.
I started salt bath annealing last year but because of the extra setup time and complexity, I try and wait until I have large numbers of brass to do. It’s become a little more of a “chore” because of that. It may give a more consistent product but for my needs I don’t think I’d be able to see the difference.

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Finally, someone else who values his fingers! grin


Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.

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Originally Posted by CrowRifle


That's what you need if you don't want to make your own CrowRifle, great!


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JB, I use it, and, like Dumbo's feather, it seems to work....for which I am grateful. TY


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Originally Posted by Whttail_in_MT
Originally Posted by TRexF16
Did you make that? Any hints or guidance for us to do the same?

There's a link in his post.

Well I'll be dipped in she-ite. Right you are. How'd I miss that?
Thanks,
Rex

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Originally Posted by TRexF16
Originally Posted by Whttail_in_MT
Originally Posted by TRexF16
Did you make that? Any hints or guidance for us to do the same?

There's a link in his post.

Well I'll be dipped in she-ite. Right you are. How'd I miss that?
Thanks,
Rex


OK, I made myself one too. Used some sash cord for the wick. Works like a champ with DNA. Way hotter than a candle and absolutely no soot at all. Just did 60 .243 cases.
Now, I find that with this method I do not get much, if any, of the discoloration to the brass that I see with more "controlled" (for lack of a better term) methods. And while I may be a wimp, though I don't think so, I am pretty sure I am getting them plenty hot. I have a friend who is a pretty advanced F-class shooter and he has an AMP machine and anneals his cases every reloading. He calls me a masochist for using a method that basic say to do a thing until it hurts so bad you can't do it any more, then do the same thing a few dozen more times in a row.
I think he might be right...LOL.

Do others who use the candle / DNA lamp method see those distinctive color variations like we see in GI or Lapua factory brass? I don't.

Thanks,
Rex

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Originally Posted by TRexF16
Originally Posted by TRexF16
Originally Posted by Whttail_in_MT
Originally Posted by TRexF16
Did you make that? Any hints or guidance for us to do the same?

There's a link in his post.

Well I'll be dipped in she-ite. Right you are. How'd I miss that?
Thanks,
Rex


OK, I made myself one too. Used some sash cord for the wick. Works like a champ with DNA. Way hotter than a candle and absolutely no soot at all. Just did 60 .243 cases.
Now, I find that with this method I do not get much, if any, of the discoloration to the brass that I see with more "controlled" (for lack of a better term) methods. And while I may be a wimp, though I don't think so, I am pretty sure I am getting them plenty hot. I have a friend who is a pretty advanced F-class shooter and he has an AMP machine and anneals his cases every reloading. He calls me a masochist for using a method that basic say to do a thing until it hurts so bad you can't do it any more, then do the same thing a few dozen more times in a row.
I think he might be right...LOL.

Do others who use the candle / DNA lamp method see those distinctive color variations like we see in GI or Lapua factory brass? I don't.

Thanks,
Rex


Your friend makes a very valid assessment.


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Originally Posted by Mr_TooDogs
Originally Posted by CrowRifle


That's what you need if you don't want to make your own CrowRifle, great!

Yup ,, thanks for the link CrowRifle !

I killed three crows at my lease the other day - just saying . smile
Great reminder of the beauty of a 22-250 launching a 55gr. Blitzking , 30yds and [2] @ 80yds. - they didn't suffer that's for sure .


PRESIDENT TRUMP 2024/2028 !!!!!!!!!!


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Annealing brass can be as involved as you want it to be.

I am always trying to find the simplest way of doing things and to that end here is simple for me.

Put a drill motor in a vice with soft jaws, chuck an appropriate sized socket, light a propane torch (small torch on 1 lb bottle), hold flame on slowly spinning (~60 rpm) cartridge.

I leave in the flame for 8 seconds, my regular cadence of counting is such that I count to 13, this consistently gives 8 seconds in the flame.

I pick, with my bare fingers, the brass case out of the socket and put it a container (glass kitchen bowl).

When all that is needed is done , the brass goes directly to further prep and is loaded.

This is a simple method and I usually do lots of up to 100 pcs.

With benchrest loading techniques the Extreme Spread is is right around 10 ft/s and depending on the round loaded in the single digits.

This simple method of annealing, has in part, put me on the podium a few times in 1000 yard events.

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Originally Posted by Yukoner
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
....I had some .30-06 cases from a manufacturer they listed, and it over-annealed those, which required a couple firings before they returned to normal.


MD, I have brought a few back to normal by simply running the case necks back and forth into the neck portion of the sizing die and back over the neck and expander ball without removing the case from the die. At least that seems to work.

Have you ever tried that? Five or six cycles, and the necks are back to where they should be.

Ted


G'day. How can you tell if brass is over annealed? Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Elvis
Originally Posted by Yukoner
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
....I had some .30-06 cases from a manufacturer they listed, and it over-annealed those, which required a couple firings before they returned to normal.


MD, I have brought a few back to normal by simply running the case necks back and forth into the neck portion of the sizing die and back over the neck and expander ball without removing the case from the die. At least that seems to work.

Have you ever tried that? Five or six cycles, and the necks are back to where they should be.

Ted


G'day. How can you tell if brass is over annealed? Thanks.


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Elvis,

Basically, the necks are too soft. You can feel it when seating bullets, and accuracy usually ain't great--but if accuracy improves after the first firing, then you're pretty sure!

In the instance I cited, a rifle that usually groups 5 shots well inside an inch started shooting 3-shot groups over an inch. After the first firing, things got back to normal.

As has been discussed earlier, heating brass to 800 degrees F. for a few seconds does the job. Heating it hotter and longer can make it too soft--which is often what happens when heating it "red hot," however that is defined or perceived.


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Originally Posted by TRexF16

That's an interesting response, but for it to be true the AMP folks would have to actually be falsifying their independent lab analysis of the actual softening that occurred in the subject brass. Is that what you are saying they did - published falsified results? Just curious, as a sort of a scientific type I can't see any other way to take that.
Thanks,
Rex


They didn't falsify anything. They're simply claiming that full annealing, as opposed to recovery annealing, is the only proper way to anneal. They don't state it in those terms but if you understand the science behind it that's fundamentally what's going on.

The benefit of Salt Bath Annealing is that the temperature is limited, thereby ensuring the brass stays in recovery (at those temps, full annealing is possible but would require far more time than we're going to hold it by hand). Since AMP has taken the position that recovery annealing isn't proper annealing, that's how they arrive at the claim that SBA doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by brydan

Originally Posted by TRexF16

That's an interesting response, but for it to be true the AMP folks would have to actually be falsifying their independent lab analysis of the actual softening that occurred in the subject brass. Is that what you are saying they did - published falsified results? Just curious, as a sort of a scientific type I can't see any other way to take that.
Thanks,
Rex


They didn't falsify anything. They're simply claiming that full annealing, as opposed to recovery annealing, is the only proper way to anneal. They don't state it in those terms but if you understand the science behind it that's fundamentally what's going on.

The benefit of Salt Bath Annealing is that the temperature is limited, thereby ensuring the brass stays in recovery (at those temps, full annealing is possible but would require far more time than we're going to hold it by hand). Since AMP has taken the position that recovery annealing isn't proper annealing, that's how they arrive at the claim that SBA doesn't work.

Thanks,
When I read through AMP's statement, I didn't see anything about full annealing versus recovery annealing - maybe I missed it. I just noted the lab tests that measured the degree to which the brass was effected by the two methods.
Is there a short version of what is the distinction between full and recovery annealing?
Which of those two is being accomplished by the candle anneal method?
Thanks,
Rex

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Originally Posted by TRexF16
That's an interesting response, but for it to be true the AMP folks would have to actually be falsifying their independent lab analysis of the actual softening that occurred in the subject brass. Is that what you are saying they did - published falsified results? Just curious, as a sort of a scientific type I can't see any other way to take that.
Thanks,
Rex

Not exactly, there are other possibilities.

For example, the AMP article is based on their a priori assumption that hardness testing is the only true measure of the results of annealing.

That assumption is interesting, but it's conjecture and certainly not a well established scientific fact.

Ideally, for the purposes of a cartridge case, one wants brass to maintain a certain hardness. The problem with work hardened brass in that application is not necessarily the increased hardness, but the loss of ductility and potential development of stress fractures.

To simply maintain that Salt Bath Annealing has no effect on brass denies the actual results of actual users experience.



As to the difference between Recovery Annealing and Full Annealing...

Candle Annealing was explained fully by Mule Deer in a paragraph or two. With a total investment of One Dollar ($1) to get set up and started one can achieve PROVEN results.

PROVEN by analysis and proven by decades of actual testing by thousands of users.

Annealing as defined by AMP requires a 300 page scientific treatise to show that only their machine will work, and costs $1500.

After reading the AMP scientific treatise, apparently only the $1500 machine method will work at all.

If that is truly the case, how did millions of Benchrest and Match shooters possibly ever manage to Anneal their brass cases for 100 years before the AMP machine was invented?

Hell...I've been doing it for over half that long.

After all, a simple method that only costs a dollar ($1) can't possibly achieve the same results as a $1500 unit...can it...?

Hey...I just ask the questions... one can draw their own conclusions...



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