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Originally Posted by OldmanoftheSea
Paul,
You don't strike me as the type to intentionally get under someone's skin..
Actually you generally seem to choose your words and actions to be very civil...

Syeve
All one had to do is listen to the breathing of the guy with the camera after, at most a minute and a half, probably less, of "encounter" to know he was out of his element with a sky high adrenaline level..

Not that a body can gives any sort of decent sight picture, but whether intentional or not it seem like"fire for effect" and maybe he will drop it...
Dumping half a second magazine seems tactically unwise..potentially fatal..
I agree a shotgun would have been more effective and thought most marked vehicles had a locking rack on the passenger side of the radio equipment...
They were on their heels when they went in...


I am not trying to get under anyone's skin at all. These matters are important to me, so I try to do them some justice. I am not sure if you intended to, but you raised yet another training issue. It's just not possible to train in an adrenaline rush. There are some things that can be done to get the blood flowing and to induce stress, but that does not compare to the stress of a situation in which you know someone is trying to kill you.

You mentioned them being on their heels when they went in. That's why I suggested in another post that they probably closed the gap more than they should have.

Last edited by PaulBarnard; 04/25/20.
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If I setup this exact scenario with a paintball gun and simunitions, 95% of anybody you put through the scenario would do as well or much worse. And that's KNOWING they aren't real guns and that's KNOWING what's going to happen.

That cop has definitely had training and he did a lot of things correct. They only real critique I have was the apparent muzzle fugking they were giving each other. But that's not fair either because body cams give the viewer a deceptive view/angle.

The subject was hit four times. You don't know if the outcome would have been any different if one of those four had been in the heart or lungs. To assume it would have ended earlier is only an assumption.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by WildWest
This would make a good training video of what NOT to do. Pistol fight at rifle range.


Rifle range?


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by OldmanoftheSea
Paul,
You don't strike me as the type to intentionally get under someone's skin..
Actually you generally seem to choose your words and actions to be very civil...

Syeve
All one had to do is listen to the breathing of the guy with the camera after, at most a minute and a half, probably less, of "encounter" to know he was out of his element with a sky high adrenaline level..

Not that a body can gives any sort of decent sight picture, but whether intentional or not it seem like"fire for effect" and maybe he will drop it...
Dumping half a second magazine seems tactically unwise..potentially fatal..
I agree a shotgun would have been more effective and thought most marked vehicles had a locking rack on the passenger side of the radio equipment...
They were on their heels when they went in...


I am not trying to get under anyone's skin at all. These matters are important to me, so I try to do them some justice. I am not sure if you intended to, but you raised yet another training issue. It's just not possible to train in an adrenaline rush. There are some things that can be done to get the blood flowing and to induce stress, but that does not compare to the stress of a situation in which you know someone is trying to kill you.

You mentioned them being on their heels when they went in. That's why I suggested in another post that they probably closed the gap more than they should have.


I was actually trying to suggest that you were not "pokeing" Steve in th eye, though he seems determined to get his eye to your finger....

And I agree with your assessment.
IMO
The best thing training can do (even more important than skills proficiency) is to teach responders to go in with as clear a head as possible..


-OMotS



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Everybody wants cops and military to train more until they see the bill.

Then they're like "uhhh, never mind."


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Well, they got some.practice in.

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Attempted suicide by cop?? What did he hope to accomplish? High on drugs? What's the explanation for this guy taking on cops with a pellet gun?

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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Can you post a picture of an officer you consider to be the ideal officer build?


That would start with a CT scan of his brain.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Originally Posted by steve4102
Originally Posted by UPhiker
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard


Those officers might have life to live on their own time even if a range is available.
You're missing the point. If a "civilian" with his own full time job and everyday life responsibilities can find the time and the money to practice shooting on their own, why shouldn't a cop, whose life (or others) may depend on it, be able to?


He explained that in his post above. Cops are not on the top tear of the smart pole and most cannot be trained anyway.


Well, the majority of cops score near average on IQ tests., so yes, that is a factor, but you get what you pay for.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Originally Posted by local_dirt
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
I think you'll find that the kind of situation that played out here is one of the more common deadly force situations officers find themselves in. Using deadly force immediately upon exiting the vehicle and with the vehicle in close proximity. Yet none of the departments I worked with or trained with had realistic range scenarios to replicate the situation. I know range days cost time and money, and departments have limited budgets, but this very situation needs more training focus. I should say unless things have changed in the past 15 years.





Paul, I would have to agree with you. I research every police / shooter(s) deadly force engagement in my area that I can dig up information on, and believe this to be very much the case.


In terms of the nature of the encounters, the FBI would agree with you. As I recall, they figured around a third of encounters were in or around vehicles.

Let's add in what John the video narration guy say's about multiple attackers. After reviewing 2500 video's about a third involved multiple aggressors.

So, about 10% of the time you could be looking at multiple subjects in or around vehicles. It's something to think about.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Oh I get it, it's an anti-cop thread.

Carry on.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by hookeye
Well, they got some.practice in.

Practice
Reinforcing bad habits?

Unless part of their training is to use show of force to scare an uncertain threat (inferior force) into submission...

Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Attempted suicide by cop?? What did he hope to accomplish? High on drugs? What's the explanation for this guy taking on cops with a pellet gun?


I wondered that too.
I didn't see anyone nearby (body cam probably showed at least a 270 degree view with the move from one end of the car to the other) so where was the urgency in the response?


-OMotS



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Originally Posted by OldmanoftheSea
Originally Posted by hookeye
Well, they got some.practice in.

Practice
Reinforcing bad habits?

Unless part of their training is to use show of force to scare an uncertain threat (inferior force) into submission...

Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Attempted suicide by cop?? What did he hope to accomplish? High on drugs? What's the explanation for this guy taking on cops with a pellet gun?


I wondered that too.
I didn't see anyone nearby (body cam probably showed at least a 270 degree view with the move from one end of the car to the other) so where was the urgency in the response?


The video mentions multiple 911 calls stating he was waiving it around and point it at people.

If you pause the video when the cop starts firing, you can see the suspects weapon pointed right at the cop.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Originally Posted by OldmanoftheSea
Originally Posted by hookeye
Well, they got some.practice in.

Practice
Reinforcing bad habits?

Unless part of their training is to use show of force to scare an uncertain threat (inferior force) into submission...



Oh yay.

Another gunfighter.

Just what the internets needed.


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by deflave
Everybody wants cops and military to train more until they see the bill.

Then they're like "uhhh, never mind."



How about paying the bill while watching these [bleep] stand around for an entire day trading cop stories RATHER THAN SHOOTING?

This is what I witness on the range where I am a member, various LEO from all over the area (county SO deputies, feds, PD) congregate on "range day" and participate in socializing with very little shooting.

What concerns me more than the waste of taxpayer funds is the lack of training going on.

The money is already spent- now how about some actual work being performed?

Last edited by 3584ELK; 04/25/20.

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Originally Posted by 3584ELK
Originally Posted by deflave
Everybody wants cops and military to train more until they see the bill.

Then they're like "uhhh, never mind."



How about paying the bill while watching these [bleep] stand around for an entire day trading cop stories RATHER THAN SHOOTING?

This is what I witness on the range where I am a member, various LEO from all over the area (county SO deputies, feds, PD) congregate on "range day" and participate in socializing with very little shooting.

What concerns me more than the waste of taxpayer funds is the lack of training going on.


How much ammo did they bring?


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by steve4102
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by steve4102
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by steve4102
Originally Posted by Mike_S
Just because you are a police officer doesn’t automatically make you a good shot.



Indeed.

Have any of you shot with LEO and your local range. Even in a non-stressed range environment, not great, in fact often times scary.

Oh, and the, "It cost money to train these officers, money we don't have" - "We can't afford to go practice shooting on our own dime" it all bull schit.

If you are going to carry a firearm, learn how to use it and use it well, otherwise don't carry one.



No, it is not BS. Range days take quite a bit to put together in terms of manhours, cost and logistics. And that's certainly not the only discipline officers need continuing education/training in. Arguably not even the most important. We expect cops to be really good at a lot of very different things. To get really good takes a LOT of training time. Training takes time and it takes money. Remember that for each officer in training another officer has to cover their beat.


You are an attorney, yes?
Did you get paid by others to perfect your choice of occupation?



No I am not an attorney.

OK.

Did you get payed by others to perfect your choice of occupation?


I am retired Coast Guard. I am a human. Nobody has any right to expect perfection out of me. They have every right to expect excellence, and I strived to deliver that. Our organization was intensely focused on training and our operational tempo allowed for it. Even with that, as a multi-mission agency, we couldn't deliver excellence in every conceivable arena with every member of our organization.

If you enter in to the discussion with the understanding of the pool of employees you have, then go from there, it helps. I live in NOLA. What kind of pool of candidates do you think are standing in line to do police work here for $45,000 per year.

Fireman are standing in line around the corner for a job paying twice that much. And the government is so fiscally irresponsible that they won't lower the pay scale for a fireman and increase the pay for a Police officer.


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Originally Posted by deflave
If I setup this exact scenario with a paintball gun and simunitions, 95% of anybody you put through the scenario would do as well or much worse. And that's KNOWING they aren't real guns and that's KNOWING what's going to happen.

That cop has definitely had training and he did a lot of things correct. They only real critique I have was the apparent muzzle fugking they were giving each other. But that's not fair either because body cams give the viewer a deceptive view/angle.

The subject was hit four times. You don't know if the outcome would have been any different if one of those four had been in the heart or lungs. To assume it would have ended earlier is only an assumption.


Agree 100% with what you posted.
My question when reading the comments on threads like this is How many of the posters commenting have actually been in a gunfight? You know the real kind with all the adrenaline, unknown circumstances regarding the opposing combatant(s) etc, etc. Those that havent are simply talking out thier azzes as they have NO idea of what happens in a real "gunfight"

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I don't know anything about combat stress, never had a confrontation, and nobody would call me lion heart anyway...but I was in 2 airplane screwups, one of which, was damn close to the plane going off the end of the runway into the ocean collapsing the nose gear. Me and some other guys talking it over later courtesy of the Wein Airlines booze cart, (nobody hurt), discovered that we forgot to breathe, there was no screaming like in the movies. Now breathing is pretty well ingrained I think. But most of us consciously remembered holding our breath. So, I guess my point is, a normal guy would prolly have to train like a Delta or Seal to behave well in a shootout. What cop shop could afford to train at that level? Would we want poorly screened law enforcement people trained to that level?


Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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I’ve shot with and against a lot of cops. All were pretty good. The CERT/SWAT guys for obvious reasons shot a lot better than the road cops.

Most noticeable strength differences of the heavy hitters was on target hits while moving, and speed of reload and back on target hits.

Several of these officers had done lethal shoots. The worst shooter of this group killed a guy on a dv call who was holding his girlfriend with a blade to her throat. He shot him in the head from 10’ft.

😎


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