[/quote]If the FBI endorsed the 10mm tomorrow, all the deer hunters and backpackers of the world would applaud. [/quote] Actually the FBI did endorse the 10mm, It's how we got the S&W 1076.
.40 was not around for the Sunniland shooting. My BIL was though, and was involved in the event, before and after. He was on the board within the FBI that brought the 10MM, and then the .40 to the agents. He knows what happened, what was discussed after, and how all that worked out. Interesting to talk to. Much of what has been bruited about is conjecture and bs
I swear this topic gets posted just to start arguments. I can promise you that .02 of bullet diameter is not really that important in a gunfight. 40's work fine, but so do 9mm's and 45's and 357 Sigs, and several others. Some of you argue about this like it's religion.
Actually, you are supporting what I posited. That is, if there is no discernible difference and you have an entire department armed and trained with a caliber (in this case the 40) why go through the expense of replacing them with a 9?
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
One of the biggest "takeaways" from this and other shootings is LEOs do not receive enough training/practice...
THIS. In Spades. Some years back, before I retired, and while still working at our academy, we had a douche bag colonel come upstairs and opine to me, that instead of quarterly qualifications, we should cut back to two ranges a year. It just so happened that the weekend before, one of our people had emptied a G 35 and had managed to miss the bird he was shooting at, 16 times. Douche bag got red faced and stomped out of my office, but that was the last I heard of cutting back on ranges.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them." -Master Chief Hershel Davis
Well, SOMEBODY's recommending stuff I wouldn't....
If the FBI endorsed the 10mm tomorrow, all the deer hunters and backpackers of the world would applaud.
My old department started issuing the Smith and Wesson 1076, iirc in 1991. We transitioned from the Smith and Wesson 686, 357 Magnum. I came on in 1995. We issued the 1076 until 2003, iirc. It was a helluva pistol. Highly accurate and enough juice to do the job. The problem was ammunition. We went from Federal Hydra shoks to Master Match custom loaded 180 grain Gold Dots.
With all that said, if I were working the road again, and wearing a 10mm, I would load Underwood Ammo 165 grain Gold Dots, and feel well armed.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them." -Master Chief Hershel Davis
Does the fact that a bullet can penetrate a 1/8 steel plate have any relevance when shooting at people? Yes, there is that one in a thousand chance of the bad guy hiding behind steel, but other than that...
Yes it does. Three times in the last year we’ve had azzhats try to drive over an officer. Meth and desperation make for some interesting chit.
I was almost run down in 2015. it is still amazing what Adrenalin can do for an old fat man.
So it begs the question, aside from the 2" of extra penetration during the FBI shooting (where the 9mm failed) and the 40 is SUCH a burden, why did half the known world go to the 40 in the first place, over a bullet? Once again government bureaucracy and feathermerchants rule the roost... BTW, Paul Harrell has a BUNCH of really good videos. I highly recommend him.
Never underestimate the power of the Big "I". I have never understood why the world of Law Enforcement listens so intently to an agency who is involved in fewer gunfights than police departments in Las Vegas, New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago, just to name a few. The only reason they are somewhat credible in this area is because they have a budget that allows them to do ad nauseum testing.
Oh, and remember this: If that 115 grain winchester silvertip had penetrated 2" more in Miami, You would have never heard of the 40 Smith and Wesson.
This is about the most drilled down post of this thread
Along with Joel's statement about involved shootings. Lest also remember most feebs aren't cops...but lawyers and accountants....they will test until until they get their desired answers.
One thing I am damned sure of is investigator should not even beinin their name....I suggest the change to constipator
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
Does the fact that a bullet can penetrate a 1/8 steel plate have any relevance when shooting at people? Yes, there is that one in a thousand chance of the bad guy hiding behind steel, but other than that...
However I feel a bullet should be able to penetrate both sides of an empty 55 gallon steel drum and do damage on the far side.
Does the fact that a bullet can penetrate a 1/8 steel plate have any relevance when shooting at people? Yes, there is that one in a thousand chance of the bad guy hiding behind steel, but other than that...
However I feel a bullet should be able to penetrate both sides of an empty 55 gallon steel drum and do damage on the far side.
Rifles do that reliably. Which by the way is a big sticking point of the FBI tactics the day of the shooting. Why did this special stakeout squad not use long guns for the takedown? The FBI certainly had access to long guns, shotguns and probably the MP5's that were popular at the time. The FBI knew these guys were violent, had murdered multiple people and used a rifle in the commission of their crimes. Ultimately a shotgun was deployed but almost too little too late.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
So it begs the question, aside from the 2" of extra penetration during the FBI shooting (where the 9mm failed) and the 40 is SUCH a burden, why did half the known world go to the 40 in the first place, over a bullet? Once again government bureaucracy and feathermerchants rule the roost... BTW, Paul Harrell has a BUNCH of really good videos. I highly recommend him.
Never underestimate the power of the Big "I". I have never understood why the world of Law Enforcement listens so intently to an agency who is involved in fewer gunfights than police departments in Las Vegas, New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago, just to name a few. The only reason they are somewhat credible in this area is because they have a budget that allows them to do ad nauseum testing.
Oh, and remember this: If that 115 grain winchester silvertip had penetrated 2" more in Miami, You would have never heard of the 40 Smith and Wesson.
This is about the most drilled down post of this thread
Along with Joel's statement about involved shootings. Lest also remember most feebs aren't cops...but lawyers and accountants....they will test until until they get their desired answers.
One thing I am damned sure of is investigator should not even beinin their name....I suggest the change to constipator
It should be noted that the data that drove the FBI's conclusion was based on ALL law enforcement involved shootings throughout the country.
Not their own.
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Why did this special stakeout squad not use long guns for the takedown? The FBI certainly had access to long guns, shotguns and probably the MP5's that were popular at the time. The FBI knew these guys were violent, had murdered multiple people and used a rifle in the commission of their crimes. Ultimately a shotgun was deployed but almost too little too late.
Imagine a similar scenario nowadays. Operation Barbarossa would pale in comparison.
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense. Robert Frost
Why did this special stakeout squad not use long guns for the takedown? The FBI certainly had access to long guns, shotguns and probably the MP5's that were popular at the time. The FBI knew these guys were violent, had murdered multiple people and used a rifle in the commission of their crimes. Ultimately a shotgun was deployed but almost too little too late.
Imagine a similar scenario nowadays. Operation Barbarossa would pale in comparison.
The deployment of long arms for that type of scenario in 1986 was borderline unheard of.
Long arms and law enforcement didn't begin to become mainstream until well after the North Hollywood shootout. And even today, they're not as common as many might think.
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Why did this special stakeout squad not use long guns for the takedown? The FBI certainly had access to long guns, shotguns and probably the MP5's that were popular at the time. The FBI knew these guys were violent, had murdered multiple people and used a rifle in the commission of their crimes. Ultimately a shotgun was deployed but almost too little too late.
Imagine a similar scenario nowadays. Operation Barbarossa would pale in comparison.
The deployment of long arms for that type of scenario in 1986 was borderline unheard of.
Long arms and law enforcement didn't begin to become mainstream until well after the North Hollywood shootout. And even today, they're not as common as many might think.
Probably true in terms of rifles. Shotguns on the other hand...
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
Well, SOMEBODY's recommending stuff I wouldn't....
If the FBI endorsed the 10mm tomorrow, all the deer hunters and backpackers of the world would applaud.
My old department started issuing the Smith and Wesson 1076, iirc in 1991. We transitioned from the Smith and Wesson 686, 357 Magnum. I came on in 1995. We issued the 1076 until 2003, iirc. It was a helluva pistol. Highly accurate and enough juice to do the job. The problem was ammunition. We went from Federal Hydra shoks to Master Match custom loaded 180 grain Gold Dots.
With all that said, if I were working the road again, and wearing a 10mm, I would load Underwood Ammo 165 grain Gold Dots, and feel well armed.
I shot a 1076 a few times. It was a very fine pistol, but heavy, and I think that was one of the strikes against it. The full power 10mm ammo was deemed too much, so they loaded down the 180's to subsonic velocity. Someone at S&W said wait, let's shorten the case and we'll be able to put it in 9mm framed guns, that weigh less, but match the subsonic 10mm ballistics, and then the 40 S&W was born.
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/yYDjsxrQ/IMG-0124.jpg)
but he shoulda used a Walker!