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John,
I will reach for and re-read Chapter 3. It is nearly 5 feet from me.
When do I get my copy of GG3?
Better place my rush order with your publisher.
Hah!
Rick



“Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away”.
Antoine de Saint-Exupery. Posted by Brad.
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John,
I reread Chapter 3 of GG2. I completely agree with your writing relating to straight line penetration of solids. My views relate solely to expanding bullets particularly the TTSX and E-Tip.



“Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away”.
Antoine de Saint-Exupery. Posted by Brad.
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I think you might have it wrong respecting expanding bullets, Richard.

What keeps the bullet traveling point on is its rate of spin. It is called gyroscopical effect, the same effect that keeps a peg top standing upright while it turns at full speed. When it starts losing angular speed it starts wobbling and when it goes below a certain threshold it falls.

And the spin is severely reduced when mass separates from the longitudinal axis of the bullet. The more mass, and the more it separates, or in other words the wider the mushroom, the more angular velocity it loses. Up to a point where it tumbles and dependng on the linear speed and what it hits it ill have more difficulties to keep straight on and will more likely bee to veer off its original course.

You have an example in ice skaters, that thing they do when they turn and turn on the same spot at full speed and want to stop suddenly. What they do? They open their arms to displace mass from their center of mass, lose angular velocity, and stop easily.

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Rick,

The information in the chapter on solids also applies to expanding bullets, mostly because at least one solid (the Swift Break-Away Solid), essentially "lightly" expands. Then there's the Woodleigh Cup Point.

There are also monolithic "softs" designed to lose their petals, essentially turning into solids--and monos that expand to greater and lesser degree.

Essentially what we have today is a continuum from solids that do not expand, to solids that expand a little, to "softs" that expand a little more, to softs that expand very widely, or even come almost completely apart. They all operate under the same basic principles, to greater and lesser degrees--including cavitation, stabilization, etc.



“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
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Originally Posted by flintlocke
One of the old respected writers, wish I could remember the author and magazine , years ago did a bullet deflection test involving various calibers and bullet weights shooting into angled sheets of 1/4" plywood with targets spaced behind to provide a deflection track. His conclusion was the so called brush busters of yesteryear were nothing of the sort. Stuff tending to smaller caliber, higher velocity tracked noticeably straighter after the initial penetration of the angled sheet of plywood. Unfortunately, nobody paid much attention, and you still see references to brush cartridges.
Most of us, if asked, would favor mass and momentum for minimum deflection...but in his test that didn't prove out. But, plywood and meat are two totally different mediums, but I always thought some testing, if a little flawed, is better than no testing.


I recall that article. Or perhaps a similar one. It was wooden dowels as I recall.

Conclusion the same. Brush busters dont buck brush.

personal experiences with massive, heavy cast lead bullets bears this out.

Bullet construction >>> mass, caliber, etc


Originally Posted by Archerhunter

Quit giving in inch by inch then looking back to lament the mile behind ya and wonder how to preserve those few feet left in front of ya. They'll never stop until they're stopped. That's a fact.
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I would absolutely second the suggestion of the 3006 w/200-220 grain Nosler Partition. The 200 grain Partition is the only big game bullet I have never recovered (but haven't...yet...shot anything with the 220).

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Busting brush and putting holes in critters are two different stories.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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Get yourself a Marlin .45-70 use a 405gn cast wfn or wfngc at 1200-1300fps and be done with it. Moderate recoil. Not much is able to stop the momentum and the mass, etc.

Don't use the hot crap some call "factory".


Don't ask me about my military service or heroic acts...most of it is untrue.

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I’m thinking that I’ll hold on to my 338 for a year or two yet. It hasn’t let me down to date and I have lots of confidence in the rifle and the 225 gr Barnes tipped triple shock. It’s a sako aIII and shoots as well as I can point it. I just aim at the heart/lungs from any reasonable angle and it puts game down.

The problem is that in the last couple of years, after a 25 round range session, my shoulder is sore for a week! Lol I just put a kickeeze recoil pad on it so we’ll see if that helps the shoulder this year.

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I have seen a handful of very weird terminal paths from bullets in my life. The 2 weirdest ones were when I was 16 years old and then again last year.
When I was 16 I tried a Lee REAL mold for my 58 caliber Hawken copy. They were large and heavy. I think 330 grains of something around that size.
I used 120 grains of powder and I shot several animals with them and found they often veer off course in the bodies of game and farm animals. The one that was the oddest was a mid size mule deer buck I shot broadside in the center of the chest on it's right side. The buck fell fast and when I got to it I found the entrance where I aimed, but the other side of the chest had no exit. As I was gutting it I found the bullet turned about 80 degrees and existed the left ham. Because the bullet exited I can't say if, or how much it deformed, but it did a "left face" in a hurry and only went through the chest about 1/2 way or maybe a bit more before it did. I would think that a 330 or 340 grain 58 caliber bullet only going about 1350 FPS on impact would not do such a radical turn, but that one did.

Then last season I shot a white tail with my 300 savage with a Nosler 150 grain Ballistic Tip and it did almost the same thing, but even worse. Center of the chest, broadside, and the hit was exactly where I aimed, but the bullet turned hard left and cut off 6 ribs, but only did a small amount of damage to the first lung with bone frags. The bullet went through to the gut sack but didn't hit the guts at all and entered the front of the right rear leg and was found about 1" from the back of the ham That bullet turned an honest 90 degrees and the very odd thing was the fragments of lead were all in the first 8" or so of the path. The bullet is on my mantel now and its only an empty jacket. So the 1st thing that I can't explain is the 90 degree turn with only about 1-1/2" of penetration in the direction of the bullet's flight path, but the second thing that is REAL weird is how the jacket could have gone that far after the core was gone. From the rear of the chest to about 1" from the skin on the ham, and on the SAME side I shot the deer. That deer took off and I killed it with a shot to the brain. If I had missed the head shot (the head only was above the grass as it ran) I am sure it would have gotten away. There was no blood trail and it took me about 10 minutes to find it in the high swamp grass even though it fell only about 140-150- yards from me.

I have shot that same bullet in the past in 308 and 30-06 and in other cases it did very well. That one was very very strange.

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Probably the oddest instance I've ever seen was a broadside Cape buffalo shot at right around 100 yards by a hunting partner. We could see dust fly from the bull's shoulder, very good placement. The bull was standing on the far side of a clearing, part of a herd of maybe 40 buffalo, mostly cows and calves, and at the shot buffalo ran every which way--and the bull disappeared into the bush before there was any chance for a second shot.

It looked so good we waited for the death bellow--which generally happens, but not always. It didn't, so we (two hunters, two PHs and a tracker) waited around an hour before following up. I had been asked to come along as sort of a back-up back-up, and when we didn't find an immediate blood trail, the five of us spread out about 20-25 yards apart, the tracker with the senior PH, enough to remain visible to each other. Within 100 yards or so a bull jumped and ran away, 40-50 yards in front of me, but I couldn't tell if it was the hit bull, so didn't shoot.

We gathered and found a little blood, but and started following, but then the bush got a lot thicker, and the PHs told me and my partner to stay behind. Over and hour we heard 11 shots from their .458 and .416, and eventually they shouted that the bull was down.

It turned out the 300-grain .375 bullet, a highly regarded bonded, had hit the shoulder, then deflected through only the near lung--and ended up under the hide on the SAME side, at the rear of the ribcage--perfectly expanded and retaining over 90% of its weight.


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An odd one that my dad swears up and down happened to him while we were hunting was that we jumped a moose and he let fly with his 30-06 pump with the old dominion round nose bullets.

He had fired three shots at that Bull Moose while it was running through the brush.

One of the shots had hit the rear hip and the bullet head turned around in the hip socket and came back out about an inch apart from the entry. Or so he claims.

There was four holes in the hide and none had exited the far side.

We found 2 bullets but he swear up and down that he only fires 3 shots with four holes in it. I was just young at the time I am a little hazy on the details. Crazy of it did happen!!

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Originally Posted by akaSawDoctor
An odd one that my dad swears up and down happened to him while we were hunting was that we jumped a moose and he let fly with his 30-06 pump with the old dominion round nose bullets.

He had fired three shots at that Bull Moose while it was running through the brush.

One of the shots had hit the rear hip and the bullet head turned around in the hip socket and came back out about an inch apart from the entry. Or so he claims.

There was four holes in the hide and none had exited the far side.

We found 2 bullets but he swear up and down that he only fires 3 shots with four holes in it. I was just young at the time I am a little hazy on the details. Crazy of it did happen!!


I sound like one of those guys that has the one up the story! Lol

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[quote=Mule Deer
It turned out the 300-grain .375 bullet, a highly regarded bonded, had hit the shoulder, then deflected through only the near lung--and ended up under the hide on the SAME side, at the rear of the ribcage--perfectly expanded and retaining over 90% of its weight.[/quote]


My wife had exactly the same experience using a 300 grain TSX out of a .375 H&H on a cape buffalo. Made for an extremely sporty follow up over two days with double digit follow up shots. Wounded buffalo are no joke.
R


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“Everyone did what was right in his own eyes.”

Liberal=liberated from God...How's that working out?
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Rhettsker,

Thanks very much for info!

You're absolutely right about bufflo being "sporty" when only shot through one lung. Which is a good reason to shoot them through both lungs, behind the shoulder. This is also the advice I've heard from the two most experiences "big bear" hunters I know, because one broken shoulder does not always work like many believe it should. Two lungs always do.

As a VERY experienced friend of mine (who worked his entire adult life for various major shooting companies) once noted, "ALL bulllets will tumble." This information was not just derived from vast field experience, but plenty of testing in various kinds of "media."


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Sometimes an extreme example helps. Buckshot and other round balls don't tumble. Not said to promote their use, only to illustrate their stability in the terminal phase. Ask yourself why and riddle it until the light comes on.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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