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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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It's not speculation to state that none of this would have occurred if not for Firzpatrick. Without his false accusations, there was no search, no Stringybark creek, innocent people would not have had to do years hard labour.
You want me to speculate on what life the Kelly's might of had if they weren't horse thieves, implying that they would have had no trouble with police. How did being honest work out for Skillion and Williamson? Or even land owners who were merely thought to be sympathetic to the Kelly cause.
Why were there people in the bush waiting behind the Glenrowan inn for a flare be fired, to come down and join in? Where were the public standing in regards to Johnny Gilbert, Ben Hall, Captain Moonlight? The certainly were not aiding them, protecting them and willing to fight with them. Behaving was neither here nor there, police at the time did as they liked and the people finally got sick of it. Why did Ned want to create a separate state for? Because everybody was being treated just dandy in the current one?
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Campfire Outfitter
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1) You want me to speculate on what life the Kelly's might of had if they weren't horse thieves,
2) implying that they would have had no trouble with police.
3) How did being honest work out for Skillion and Williamson? Or even land owners who were merely thought to be sympathetic to the Kelly cause.
4) Why did Ned want to create a separate state for? Because everybody was being treated just dandy in the current one?
1- I haven't asked you to speculate , Im just asking why you refuse to speculate on such, but you will gladly loosely speculate on other matters. 2 - Since John Kelly could avoid trouble with the law and police by making better choices in life, is it not also reasonably possible for Ned, Dan ,Steve, Joe to do the same or similar ? 3 - Skillion & Williamson, It worked out so that they were not shot 28 times and then hanged in a Melbourne prison....correct? 4 - So Ned Kelly was not only a career thief of horses, collaborator with bushrangers , impersonator of police, Robbing banks, holding civilians hostage at gunpoint, destroying infrastructure property like telegraph wires/poles and railway lines that didn't belong to him, he was also conspiring on a course of INSURRECTION.Well if he hadn't been hung for murder of police ,he would have been hung or shot dead for such a serious capital offence under the Crown. The Crown had enough past trouble with rebelling Irish convicts in the Australian colonies....The Crown crushed and stamped them out...Kelly was an Irish fool.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Are you on drugs lol? Williamson and Skillion got 11 and 7 years hard labour and Redmond Barry said he would have given Ned 20, all over BS incident and with no proof. That's hardly working out well. Can you think why people were upset about things? Sure Ned and the others could have lived different lives, been straight laced, much like the farmers of the Greta region who lost their land for no reason.
If the crown had of hanged Ned for horse stealing there would be no issues. But they didn't and so there are.
Maybe if the English had treated the Irish better there might not have been so much trouble. You can say Kelly was a fool, but history belongs to the victor, and while the police won the battle they lost the war. There were changes implemented after the Kelly outbreak to ensure it didn't happen again, people got a fairer go, crooked and corrupt police were cleaned out, and the Stringybark shooting stung the police.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The discussion of Kelly involves understanding & application of criminal LAW principles -
and such critical applications of 'reasonable doubt' and 'Beyond reasonable doubt'
and an indisputable basis of supporting evidence.
Yet your speculative allegations put forward against police can easily be counter-argued to establish reasonable doubt as to veracity.
POLICE
Primary intent to murder - speculative and reasonably refutable
Leather body straps as evidence of such intent - speculative and reasonably refutable
Many guns as evidence of such intent - speculative & reasonably refutable
8 police as evidence of such intent - speculative and reasonably refutable.
Warrants left behind as evidence of such intent - speculative and reasonably refutable
Plain-clothes illegal - speculative and unverified as unlawful
Posing as miners illegal - speculative and unverified as unlawful
KELLY
Murdering three police - FACT not speculative,
Criminal collaboration with known outlaws - FACT not speculative
Malicious destruction of infrastructure - FACT not speculative
Robbing banks - FACT not speculative
Impersonating police - FACT not speculative
Stealing personal property - FACT not speculative
Armed hostage taking of civilians- FACT not speculative
Conspiring Insurrection through violence - true if judging by what you said about a new 'state'
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: Mar 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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1) Williamson and Skillion got 11 and 7 years hard labour and Redmond Barry said he would have given Ned 20, all over BS incident and with no proof.
2) Sure Ned and the others could have lived different lives, been straight laced, much like the farmers of the Greta region who lost their land for no reason.
3) If the crown had of hanged Ned for horse stealing there would be no issues. But they didn't and so there are.
4) Maybe if the English had treated the Irish better there might not have been so much trouble.
1- NO proof...You yourself have made a list of speculative unsubstantiated allegations toward police, but complain of others doing the same. 2- Or ended up with a much better life than the Greta farmers, just like brother John Kelly achieved...but that doesn't compute with you. 3- Correct, not hung for horse thieving , shot 28 times and hung for murder of three people. 4- English?...Earlier you said the problem Irish Kellys had was with the Irish police....you even corrected someone on it.
...You Aussies have to stop blaming everything on the English....
...The Kelly's were Irish, police were Irish....
1) Normal people who would comment on how fine the new police looked, and made comment that the town was more peaceful
hardly seem liked criminals that bare the brunt of police attention.
The Kellys wore police uniforms to rob the bank in Jerilderie...any people who thought they seemed uncriminal during such a brazen criminal act, are not 'normal' people like you claim.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: Oct 2007
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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LOL, he was hanged for the murder of 1, and he clearly could not have killed all three. Joe Byrne shot 1, and there is some debate about who actually killed Lonigan, I have read where he might have died from an accidental self inflicted wound as he jumped behind a log. The police mostly were Irish, some were even ex-convicts Redmond Barry was Irish, but they had English masters.
OK so why would police not take warrants, when the know they can't do anything without them, why the custom made body straps, why the talk of taking the flashness out of them, why did Lonigan claim "first blood to us" when killing the snake? I guess they were just poor misunderstood police.
As for no proof about Williamson and Skillion you can not be serious? It's well documented that Barry made the statement about Ned (and he wasn't even on trial, and Barry got to sit on his murder trial somehow). Even Fitzpatrick appologised to either Williamson or Skillion saying he didn't think it would go that way, after being sentenced to years hard labour.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Did you think that the people didn't realise it was the Kelly's until they robbed the bank? Dan was escorting the local policeman's wife around town as she was making preparations for the monthly church service. I guess the whole town must have know what was happening and went along with it.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2009
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Well, personally I enjoy the writings and poems of "The Banjo"
Andrew Barton Patterson.
Founder
Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester
"Come, shall we go and kill us venison?
And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools,
Being native burghers of this desert city,
Should in their own confines with forked heads
Have their round haunches gored."
WS
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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1) he was hanged for the murder of 1,
2) OK so why would police not take warrants, when the know they can't do anything without them,
3) why the custom made body straps,
1- Ned.K was leader, instigator and complicit in the murder of all three... irrefutable FACT. 2- FFS man!..Ive asked you numerous times- ' what ADVANTAGE did purposely going bush without the warrants give the police..???...you keep bringing the point up like a sick parrot, but can't substantiate how the police supposedly benefited by such decision. 3) Are you serious? ...Ive covered it more than once...your own allegations against police actually counter and defeat other allegations you make...you are self-defeating and don't even know it. repeat for you again!...and get an adult to explain it to you... [quote=Aussiesteve]
2- why did 8 men in 2 parties search for what they thought were only 2 people?
3- Why did the Mansfield boot maker make up a heap of long leather straps to carry out the bodies?
You have repeatedly claimed that police were only ever looking for or expecting two fugitives, so Q.-why would they need the bootmaker to supply a 'heap' of leather body straps? Rational deductive logic indicates that ../ A prerequisite demand for such large quantity by police, would reasonably suggest police were anticipating the chance they may encounter more foe than just the 2 Kellys in the course of their duty to secure them...That then casts 'reasonable doubt' to your claim that police though they were only going to find or encounter 2 x people. now WHAT don't you understand?
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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You can say Kelly was a fool, but history belongs to the victor, and while the police won the battle they lost the war.
There were changes implemented after the Kelly outbreak to ensure it didn't happen again, people got a fairer go, crooked and corrupt police
were cleaned out, and the Stringybark shooting stung the police. Kelly was NOT a victor..he LOST convincingly...both the war and the battle. his ultimate intention as you claim, was to secede from the Crown colony and form a new 'independent state' and do so through armed violent rebellion/insurrection. .He did not achieve such lunatic pipe dream ambition, not even miserably or remotely close.!! ..He was a dismally deluded loser career criminal(by choice) with bat-crazy visions of grandeur. You have for the course of this debate, haphazardly put forward feeble house of cards arguments that remain (for the overwhelming most part) speculative and unsubstantiated in point and context of criminal LAW...In some cases your own points counter and self-defeat your other points...You have basically come full circle with yourself to contradict yourself and now dispute yourself.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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There was no advantage in not taking the warrants. They didn't take them because they had no intention of using them. Its pretty simple really. Do you honestly think they forgot them? A party of 4 police were heading bush for days, they remembered to take everything they needed except the 1 thing they needed to legally arrest them. How can they forget that.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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How have I contradicted myself?
As for losing, check the record. How many tattoo's and symbols of the 3 police do you see? Where was the last time you saw a memorial to Redmond Barry, Sgt Steele or Thomas Curnow? How many police were demoted or sacked from the police force as a result of the royal commission? How did policing change for the better after the outbreak? Why did the police agree never to visit the Kelly homestead without a priest if they lost?
What don't I understand? I understand it just fine, maybe that's the problem. I can see the faults on both sides, and see how police actions caused the situation.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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They didn't take them because they had no intention of using them. Its pretty simple really. Do you honestly think they forgot them? Again you are speculating on what police intentions were , not having warrants on their persons is not ' beyond reasonable doubt' that they planned to murder the 2 x Kelly, simply because an intention to murder 2 Kellys didn't require them to leave the warrants in town. They very well could have carried warrants and murdered the Kellys anyway, had that been their true intention. It would make good sense to carry the warrants even if the intention was murder...that way they could attempt to claim their actions as justified in the course of executing their officially charged duty - to apprehend two fugitives under warrant.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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OK so why leave them behind? You can't honestly think they forgot them?
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Campfire Outfitter
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OK so why leave them behind? You can't honestly think they forgot them? Forgot them, or just didnt care enough to bring them, who knows. Even in our current day and age of police procedures and accountability you think they would know their stuff, but many either through incompetence or plain disregard, still fail to follow lawfully required procedures in execution of their duties. Police cases against defendants often get thrown out of court simply due to poor police procedures in investigations & prosecutions. They slip up on some of the most fundamental points of law, that it makes one wonder how they managed to be so hopeless or attain the rank & position they have.Judges have rightly chastised and derided police for amateurish and scatter brain efforts in a courtroom. So consider how loose they are with procedures in the field among themselves...in the 1880s I think police would have been worse.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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I agree completely. I have heard of cases being thrown out for things like incorrect dates on warrants. If your job was doing that everyday, you would think that you would be very careful and triple check your work.
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Campfire Regular
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One of my favorite movies is "Breaker Morant." How well known, and thought of is he in Australia? Captdavid[u][/u]
CPT, One of my faves too. A great story and well portrayed in a great film. As said above, if not for the film, I reckon not many Aussies would know the story. I can't agree that Morant is one of our best known characters either. Ned Kelly probably is though...
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New Member
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New Member
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Quite well known.
As a lawyer I have read up on the case carefully. My view is that he was guilty of war crimes. However, I do not believe his case warranted execution. There were many other unrighteous killings in that war- and we must remember it was one in which the British invented the Concentration Camp.
I believe Britain chose to set a colonial example to possibly avoid criticism in the UK that would have been caused by executing a Brit. The political back lash in Australia was considerable, and Britain lost the ability to impose the death penalty upon our servicemen over it.
Incidentally, the man was, whilst an excellent bush poet, balladeer, and horseman, a bit of a rogue, and left debt all the way up much of East Coast Australia!
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Back in the 1970's in the US Army we would watch Breaker Morant as part of Geneva Convention classes! "Sergeant Major!"......"Sir"...... and Code 303 or regulation 303 They were still using it in the 80s. And it was "Rule .303" in reference to the .303 service cartridge, or rule of the rifle. Kind of a significant line in the movie, and the Army Instructors didn't understand thenreference.
Last edited by MikeL2; 05/05/20.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Breaker Morant and Ned Kelly are the first two legendary Aussie characters. The third one is the jolly swagman by the billabong.
Ok, I will ask again...what source(s) do you draw that conclusion about Morant from?
You just made up that entire post about NZ history as you were typing it.
Then its highly evident you as a KIWI really don't know your NZ-British colonial empire history....since NZ was indeed part of the Crowns colony of NSW, and thus came under the administrational and durastictional laws of such. https://nzhistory.govt.nz/letters-p...d-a-colony-separate-from-new-south-walesThe below map link shows in pink, the basic boundary of NSW lands as first defined and claimed by Cpt. Cook for the Crown on Possession Island 22nd August 1770 and as it still remained when the First Fleet arrived in Australia 1788, with NZ remaining part of the same till 1840. When in Jan 1788 the actual colony of New South Wales had been founded, Its Governor, Captain Arthur Phillip had amended the Commission to alter the boundary not of the crown lands claimed by Cook, but of the colony itself. -- Dated 25 April 1787, the colony of New South Wales now included all the islands adjacent in the Pacific Ocean within the latitudes of 10°37'S and 43°39'S which encompassed most of New Zealand except for the southern half of the South Island. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Australia_history.gifColonial NZ lawlessness: https://nzhistory.govt.nz/politics/treaty/treaty-timeline/treaty-events-1800-1849"1831 Māori petition the British government
Growing lawlessness among Europeans in New Zealand and fears of a French annexation of the country led 13 northern chiefs
to ask King William IV for his protection. Missionary William Yate helped the chiefs draft the letter to the King. The Crown
acknowledged the petition and promised protection."Below: Read both sections p.55 " British Sovereignty" and " Treaty of Waitangi" that mention the issue with lawless white sailors and adventurers, as well as the ongoing problem with lawless white settlers: https://books.google.com.au/books?i...;q=nz%20colony%20lawlessness&f=false
I'm not going to bother explaining 19th century New Zealand history to you.
For that we can all be rather thankful ,for you could not possibly convey important established historical facts about British colonial NZ that you were blatantly unaware of. Sigh. Yes I know. Everyone in New Zealand knows about this in greater detail than you, its taught in school you great pompous twit. Pompous twit, no say it isnt so, an americano knows everything, dont you know. 
"The 375HH is the greatest level of power you can get for the investment in recoil." (JJHack)
79s and losttrail, biggest waste of air.
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