Firearms group launches charter challenge of weapons ban as Blair clarifies rules for shotguns John Paul Tasker · CBC News
Legal opinion suggested some 10, 12 gauge shotguns could now be banned — Ottawa says that isn't true
A firearms rights group is launching a constitutional challenge of the government's ban on 'assault-style' weapons, saying the regulatory change threatens a fundamental charter right.
The government banned some 1,500 makes and models of firearms last Friday. The Canadian Coalition for Firearms Rights (CCFR) — citing the Charter of Rights guarantee under section 7 of the right to "life, liberty and security of the person" — said Thursday that prohibition is "fundamentally unjust" because it deprives them of their property.
The CCFR said only litigation can stop the government's "abusive process." It said it has retained a Calgary-based lawyer who specializes in constitutional challenges.
"The government, in an entirely arbitrary and irrational way, has created legislation that will deprive us of our property and our freedom to live as we wish, on pains of incarceration for failing to comply," said Rod Galitca, CEO and executive director of the CCFR.
The group acknowledged it has "no guarantee of a win," given past legal rulings by the country's top court on firearms. In the 1993 R v. Hasselwander case, the court upheld the constitutionality of the firearms regime which banned automatic firearms.
"Canadians, unlike Americans, do not have a constitutional right to bear arms. Indeed, most Canadians prefer the peace of mind and sense of security derived from the knowledge that the possession of automatic weapons is prohibited," the court said.
Opposition to the firearms ban has been fierce in some circles. A parliamentary e-petition calling on the prime minister to scrap the "firearms confiscation regime" collected more than 115,000 signatures in just over 24 hours. The petition is sponsored by Conservative MP Michelle Rempel Garner.
RCMP prohibits first 12-Gauge Shotgun with 20mm Bore Law - CBSA Memorandum backs Firearms Lawyers on Shotgun Ban
May 8, 2020
OSHAWA: On May 5, 2020, CSSA and CSAAA issued a joint news release showing Justin Trudeau and Bill Blair – either through gross ignorance or gross incompetence – banned 12-gauge and 10-gauge shotguns under the 20mm maximum bore diameter restriction in SOR/2020-96.i
Minister Blair’s denied this via social media, saying, “Both 10 and 12 gauge shotguns are under the 20mm provision, and thus not subject to the prohibition. Our government is taking action to protect Canadians by banning assault-style weapons – not those used for hunting.”
“The truth matters,” Minister Blair said.
We agree 100%.
The truth matters.
This morning, the RCMP confirmed the first 12-gauge shotgun prohibited under the new Order-in-Council.
The deadly evil weapon? An old Iver Johnson single-shot, fixed choke 12-gauge shotgun with a 2 3/4" chamber. That's right, a standard old farm gun.
RCMP Technical Unit Supervisor, Tim Hobbs, confirmed this firearm would be classified as prohibited in a phone call with a prominent firearms dealer.
See this firearm being measured - see for yourself:
That’s why we asked for the legal opinion of one of Canada’s top firearm lawyers, Edward L Burlew LL.B.iii
Solomon Friedman LL.B., another respected lawyer well-versed in firearms law, agrees with Mr. Burlew’s opinion.
“Your standard 12-gauge shotgun, most people think it has a bore of 18.5 millimeters,” he told CBC Radio, “but modern shotguns are actually over-bored – they’re larger than 18.5 millimeters to allow you to screw in attachments called chokes. It’s very common. Most modern shotguns are made that way and that they are almost all larger than 20 millimeters.”iv
If Minister Blair doesn’t want to listen to the opinion of two experts in Canadian firearms law, perhaps he will agree with the experts in one of the agencies he oversees.
The Canadian Border Services Agency (CBSA) Memorandum D19-13-2, issued May 29, 2019, defines BORE as:
the inside of the barrel of a firearm, from the throat to the muzzle, through which the projectile travels.v
By the CBSA’s definition, it may be all 12-gauge and 10-gauge shotguns – not just those with removable chokes – are now Prohibited firearms because they do not consider the forcing cone, the “throat” of the barrel, which exceeds the 20 mm maximum bore diameter specified in SOR/2020-96.
Will Minister Blair is support the CBSA opinion that meshes with two of Canada’s top legal experts in firearms law?
Or will he toss them under the bus because he can’t admit he made a huge mistake?
We demand Minister Bill Blair immediately rescind SOR/2020-96 until such time as he can figure out what he’s doing.
It’s clear he hasn’t figured out what he’s doing yet, and all Canadian hunters and sport shooters may pay the price for his incompetence.
Fixing this particular (among many) problem requires the addition of two little words: “except shotguns.” That it is so easy to fix yet Blair refuses to make the change, tells us the wording was intentional. Minister Bill Blair promised to call us the next day to clarify the OiC. Two and a half days later... we're still waiting. More to come. - TB
Sadly any Canadians thinking the higher courts will save them from this insane new law are fooling themselves. IMO this is here to stay, at least until another government is elected. Glad I still have my US citizenship and can leave if it continues. My son is already looking at property in AK.
Steve; Top of the morning to you sir, I hope the day back east is as nice and bright as this is starting out to be here and this finds you all well.
Thanks for the video link, I'd honestly never thought of them measuring inside beyond the choke - unhappy face inserted here....
While I'd read of this on the CCFR site - as mentioned I'm a member - I measured the bore at the muzzle of a few of the shotguns here and thought most would be exempt from the current wording, now I don't know Steve.
Of interest - or not as the case may be - we've got a similar Stevens which was brought up here when my wife's grandfather moved from Minnesota in 1904.
One of the most galling aspects of Hangover Minister Blair's response in my view is his dismissive insistence that we just listen to him and not pay attention to the wording of the flawed document he's responsible for, you know?
As if he's able to, by royal decree issued from his lips, make law.... wait just a minute Steve, I've read about that type of behavior elsewhere.....
To any Canucks reading this, here's once again my plea to get involved with one of the firearm rights groups here and just plain get involved. Now's as good a time as any - as we like to say...
Anyway sir, thanks again for the update, all the best to you all and stay well.
Yes, the barrel has to be measured before the choke.
WRT the OIC, you do not need to be a lawyer to know when you're being lied to. The government did not do their homework before rushing this through, and must be held accountable.
One thing that has to be made abundantly clear, and repeated over and over, is that the government used an order in council. The danger with these has to be communicated to the public. Today, it's firearms. Tomorrow, who knows?
The Liberals would not have been successful had they introduced the bill in the regular way. Because the Liberals are a minority govt, the bill would have been defeated, and a no-confidence vote called. Of that you can be sure. Using the OIC is proof. They tried to push it through without being questioned.
Everything that a government does must be open to scrutiny. Everything must be honest. Everything must follow a process of discussion and debate. They must never be allowed to enact any legislation without due process.
Going forward, the public has to be made aware of the dangers associated with enacting laws using OICs.
To me, Blair has a criminal face, and as we have seen, a criminal attitude to match. Blair should not be considered trustworthy, regardless of his political affiliation. He plays fast and loose with the truth, and as we have seen, will do whatever it takes to get his way.
The battle continues on three fronts. In court, with other MPs, and in public.
Home Firearms What you need to know about the Government of Canada’s new prohibition on certain firearms and devices
What you need to know about the Government of Canada’s new prohibition on certain firearms and devices
Important notice: Update on 10 and 12 gauge shotgun classification under the new prohibition
On May 1st, 2020, the Government of Canada announced that it had made amendments to the Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and Other Weapons, Components and Parts of Weapons, Accessories, Cartridge Magazines, Ammunition and Projectiles as Prohibited, Restricted or Non-Restricted (SOR/98-462) [Classification Regulations] prescribing certain firearms as prohibited. One of the categories of the newly prohibited firearms include "Any firearm with a bore diameter of 20 mm or greater" (s. 95 of the Classification Regulations). The Canadian Firearms Program (CFP) of the RCMP adheres to the Association of Firearm and Tool Mark Examiners' (AFTE) definition for bore diameter measurements. "The interior dimensions of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke." (Glossary of the Association of Firearm & Tool Mark Examiners by the AFTE Standardization Committee, 1st Ed. 1980). This is reflected in the RCMP's Firearms Reference Table (FRT) which clearly states that "...in shotguns, diameter of the barrel forward of the chamber but before the choke." The CFP also recognizes the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) standards regarding firearms and ammunition. The SAAMI chamber specifications for 10ga and 12ga shotguns do not include chokes therefore indicating that chokes are not part of the bore. Accordingly, it is the CFP's view that, in accordance with acceptable firearms industry standards for shotguns, the bore diameter measurement is considered to be at a point after the chamber, but before the choke.
Further, in making classification assessments of firearms which are reflected in the FRT, the CFP relies on recognized industry standard measurements. With respect to 10ga and 12ga shotguns, the CFP recognizes the SAAMI standard specifications which establish that the nominal (i.e. standard) bore diameter measurements for 10ga and 12ga shotguns are below the 20mm threshold (19.69mm for 10ga, 18.42mm for 12ga).
The RCMP's interpretation and standard practice is not a defence under the law if you were charged. As the law has not been amended. Technically, the RCMP are violating the law by not following the law.
Intent, when drafting legislation, does not formulate law unless the written law matches the intent of the law.
The RCMP's interpretation and standard practice is not a defence under the law if you were charged. As the law has not been amended. Technically, the RCMP are violating the law by not following the law. Intent, when drafting legislation, does not formulate law unless the written law matches the intent of the law. Keep the pressure on!
I tend to agree with you. The RCMP has demonstrated a number of times in recent memory that they twist situations (High River). Personally I find the clarification they issued to be not clear when they use a term "nominal standard" and then quote exact dimensions this leaves a wide hole that can be utilized at a future date. The OIC needs to be pulled back, rewritten and go through parliamentary discussion.
The RCMP falls under Public Safety Canada. That agency is presently under the direction of Bill Blair, the Minister of Public Safety. Make no mistake, the RCMP, the federal government and Blair will interpret any laws in a manner that serves their own ends. We have seen that in High River and other places around the country.
The government knows that Canadians have short memories. A promise from a politician is not worth the powder to blow it to hell. Should they need to "re-interpret" the law in the future, they will. Vigilance is important to keep them reined in and acting for the good of the country.
It might be cynical to say, but the national police and the federal government will do whatever they need to do to suit the situation. I would ask that you support groups who are not afraid to speak out in Ottawa and to the media. These groups would have consulting lawyers to help with the quagmire of laws and governmental bills, writs, amendments, etc.
Remember, we are not only talking about firearms. Get active with a political organization or citizen's group you can trust at any level of government. Be open minded. Let others talk too. A willingness to communicate and listen to others are important tools.
Join a group like the CCFR or CSSA. Chat with, or write your MP occasionally. Let them know how you feel about what they are doing, and express your opinion(s) on any legislation being discussed in Ottawa.
When you do communicate, don't come across like a crazy man. Never be scared to listen or ask questions. Speak calmly to others. For example, tell them why you feel OICs are improper and can be misused. You can also write any Minister or MP anywhere in the country and express your opinion. Tell them about any proposed legislation that you feel is irresponsible. Briefly tell them why you feel that way, but don't run off at the mouth
Even short notes work. Something like, "I'm glad that you are supporting the school board restructuring. Great job!" It provides feedback and builds trust.
That said, a wooden stake, some holy water and a crucifix might be good to have in your tool kit, should you have to deal with Bill Blair directly.
Steve; Good evening to you sir, I hope it warmed up some for you folks and the weekend was a good one for you all.
The comment about interpreting the law as they see fit is bang on in my experience.
We need only to look recently at the situation with magazines which exceeded 10 rounds for 10/22's that they decided out of the blue were suddenly prohibited. Again though, the RCMP said - don't turn them in, but don't use them either. This in spite of the fact that they're legal under the current law as written.
Then there's Canadian Border Services deciding after decades of letting in folding knives with thumb studs, holes in the blade or flippers that they are "switch blades" and can't be brought into the country. Again however, one can still own them and carry them as it's only CBSA who are turning them back.... Confused yet?
Well this'll help, since bigger dealers can still bring in knives so equipped, but I can't as an individual.
Again I ask, what kind of government do we usually call one that makes decisions with no voting or discussion folks?
Anyway, lastly Steve, I'll echo your thoughts to join something like CCFR or CSSA, get involved and lets get this done away with.
Thanks again Steve, all the best to you all this upcoming week.
...One of the most galling aspects of Hangover Minister Blair's response in my view is his dismissive insistence that we just listen to him and not pay attention to the wording of the flawed document he's responsible for, you know?...Dwayne
"Hangover Minister Blair".... love it! I've heard rumours, but of course, "Only his bartender knows for sure."
Can this be the very same Bill Blair, who conducted a cross-Canada "consultation" last year when he was still the Minister of Border Security and Organized Crime Reduction, which resulted in a paper,“ Reducing Violent Crime: A Dialogue on Handguns and Assault Weapons”, released in tandem with conversations on banning handguns, which stated, on page 2:
“The vast majority of owners of handguns and of other firearms in Canada lawfully abide by requirements, and most gun crimes are not committed with legally-owned firearms" (Thanks to MP Glen Motz for that, which he sent me last fall).
BTW, e-Petition 2574, in response to the "nasty scary assault-type military weapons and whatever else we can throw in there" announcement, has, at this point (10pm, Sunday May 10) received 161,267 verified signatures. This in only 5 days. The previous one, in response to the OIC announcement, ended up with 175,308 in 90 days. The pathetic one from "Windy" Wendy Cukier in the fall of 2018, demanding the same ban, received barely over 20,000 signatures in 120 days, 80% of which were from- strangely enough- Ontario, where The Grande Dame of Canadian Gun Control herself lives.
If this is democracy, "include me out." Perhaps call it "Trudocracy." The unbridled arrogance of this government is beyond repulsive, to put it mildly.
Unlike most of you, I'm not a hunter; my main interest is handguns (but none of those frightening military assault-style thingies). But it likely doesn't matter, because I'm sure they're following Lloyd Axworthy's words:
"...disarming the Canadian public is part of the new humanitarian social agenda." (Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axworthy at a Gun Control conference in Oslo, Norway in 1998.) So if they have their way, you'll be "disarmed" as well, and reduced to buying prepackged meat at Superstore.
And yes, I am a member of both the CCFR and CSSA. Just sent a chunk of change to the former to assist with their lawsuit.
Either that Iver Johnson had a bulged barrel, the guy doing the measuring misread the mike, or someone is just trying to blow smoke up our collective butts. The prohibitions, which directly affect numerous legitimate hunting rifles and other rifle which Canadians should be FREE to own, are bad enough on their own. It is not necessary for an organization's lawyer to make stuff up to try and build support for their position. Doing this sort of thing simply hurts the group's credibility. The whole 12 gauge business is classic fake news. GD
Either that Iver Johnson had a bulged barrel, the guy doing the measuring misread the mike, or someone is just trying to blow smoke up our collective butts. The prohibitions, which directly affect numerous legitimate hunting rifles and other rifle which Canadians should be FREE to own, are bad enough on their own. It is not necessary for an organization's lawyer to make stuff up to try and build support for their position. Doing this sort of thing simply hurts the group's credibility. The whole 12 gauge business is classic fake news. GD
Any of your suggested reasons could be valid,. There is still some confusion about the whole thing but it should never have seen the light of day in the first place. Grrr........
I believe this was posted here before, but here is the link to the petition about their latest attempt to foist a gun control bill on the public without debate.
I’m sorry you northern neighbors are (also) experiencing the be-knighted wisdom of your urban elites: Liberals — except how others live and think.
Hang tough.
"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately." Although perhaps not in the literal sense that Franklin spoke of. I would settle for seeing Herren Trudeau und Blair hung from their own petard, however.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/AP39Jhm.jpg)
