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Probably an unpopular opinion, but even if Arbery was a robber and grabbed the gun, dad and son should have never chased him. I am all for shooting and killing trouble when it comes to you, but it’s another thing chasing trouble. Different if there was a crime currently being committed, but chasing a robbery suspect by a citizen is stupid.

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It’s hard to claim self defense if the victim was pursued

About as dumb is the third party taking the video. He must have been part of the pursuing posse. His evidence is key to prosecuting all three. And the DA who tried to sweep it under the rug may have a career change.

In today’s political climate they’re all in trouble.

Gonna be hard to defend all that.

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During the 911 calls, the callers, who have yet to be identified, reported seeing a man in a house under construction along Satilla Drive. The caller said the person was not breaking and entering, as the home was under construction. The caller then says that the man was "running down the street."


911


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Originally Posted by shawlerbrook
Probably an unpopular opinion, but even if Arbery was a robber and grabbed the gun, dad and son should have never chased him. I am all for shooting and killing trouble when it comes to you, but it’s another thing chasing trouble. Different if there was a crime currently being committed, but chasing a robbery suspect by a citizen is stupid.


Absolutely correct. But it does change the story from two white Bubbas running down an innocent black man out for a jog. What they did was stupid in every conceivable way. But they may not have been acting outside of Georgia law.

The rash of burglary’s in the neighborhood. The fathers possible past interaction with the deceased. The deceased’s prior criminal record if there is one. The states stand your ground and citizens arrest laws - all will be taken into consideration.

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There was more than one 911 call.

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During the 911 calls, the callers, who have yet to be identified, reported seeing a man in a house under construction along Satilla Drive. The caller said the person was not breaking and entering, as the home was under construction. The caller then says that the man was "running down the street."


Originally Posted by Ejp1234
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Ejp1234
911: whats your emergency

Caller: Yes, there is a black guy leaving a construction site.

911: you should go chase him down with guns and shoot him so he doesnt get away before the cops arrive.



Said no one ever.


They didn't have guns on them to shoot him to prevent escape. They were bearing arms in case needed to defend themselves from violence, such as the suspect attacking them in such a way as to be life threatening, as he actually did.


Weapons were already drawn upon his arrival... there was no suspect... there was a guy they think matches a description of a month old crime.

The video and 911 proves a very important element for those on trial....


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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer


In today’s political climate they’re all in trouble.
DF


In ANY political climate they would be introuble. You can't just go around chasing and shooting someone who "looks like" he might have been someone on a surveillance video.


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Originally Posted by Ejp1234
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Ejp1234
Prior convictions, charges, or even just investigations into the deceased are not relevant.... he’s the victim, not the charged.
It's relevant. In a lethal force self-defense claim before the court, the dead man's criminal record (if it involves violence, even tangentially) is relevant because it lends credence to the claim that his behavior during the struggle leading to his death was such as to place an ordinary person in fear of imminent, and potentially deadly, violence. The logic goes: if he engaged in criminal violence before, that shows a pattern that supports the claim that he was behaving similarly on the day in question.


The deceased isnt on trial my man...

The question is whether or not his history of violent crime was relevant to a lethal force self defense claim. It is, as explained.

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For whatever reason.....you fail to acknowledge the actions of the deceased.

Originally Posted by IndyCA35
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer


In today’s political climate they’re all in trouble.
DF


In ANY political climate they would be introuble. You can't just go around chasing and shooting someone who "looks like" he might have been someone on a surveillance video.





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Originally Posted by IndyCA35
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer


In today’s political climate they’re all in trouble.
DF


In ANY political climate they would be introuble. You can't just go around chasing and shooting someone who "looks like" he might have been someone on a surveillance video.




No. But if the father was involved in his prior arrest and absolutely recognized Avery as the person in the video, it does put a different spin on things.

Not saying he was justified. Just saying it does add weight to his defense. Much different than, “looked like a guy in a surveillance video“.

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Originally Posted by MIKEWERNER
Wish the kid was NOT killed....but both sides acted stupidly when things escalated. Now it is letter of the law that likely will become letter of politics.

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Given the fact Arbery initiated the fight, at the point Arbery grabbed the shotgun, under Georgia Law , McMichael was allowed to use deadly force to protect himself.


You still don't get it?

"Acting stupidly" is not against the law.

Shooting joggers is against the law. Duh!

It doesn't matter whatever their prior history was.

It doesn't matter if they look like someone in some video.

Grabbing the shotgun, if he actually did that, is a logical reaction to prevent being shot!!

Case closed.


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Originally Posted by MIKEWERNER
Possible......but perhaps you should check citizen arrest laws for that State. You may be surprised.


I'm aware of their laws and the fact that the two vigilantes started out with in their rights.

If it comes down to knowing the guy knew exactly who he was after prior to starting to chase him it'd mean the guy had valid options that he chose not to take advantage of.

That's what the cops are for..

It wouldn't set well with me if I were on a jury...


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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Ejp1234
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Ejp1234
Prior convictions, charges, or even just investigations into the deceased are not relevant.... he’s the victim, not the charged.
It's relevant. In a lethal force self-defense claim before the court, the dead man's criminal record (if it involves violence, even tangentially) is relevant because it lends credence to the claim that his behavior during the struggle leading to his death was such as to place an ordinary person in fear of imminent, and potentially deadly, violence. The logic goes: if he engaged in criminal violence before, that shows a pattern that supports the claim that he was behaving similarly on the day in question.


The deceased isnt on trial my man...

The question is whether or not his history of violent crime was relevant to a lethal force self defense claim. It is, as explained.


No... again... the 911 call that was made proves he wasnt 100% identified “there is a black man”....

As noted, they pursued him, when the deceased hadnt committed a crime against them at that time, nor by being at a construction site.... by then grabbing guns and pursuing the deceased it shows their intent.

The deceased was running away or jogging, that has yet to be proven, however that shows flight, therefore that proves immediate danger wasnt present.

The white guys pursued, armed at that, by their words a fleeing suspect.... their intent was to have an altercation, which they received.

If there was probable violence which you expect when confronting, you dont confront... you only defend, which they didnt because they pursued.

Case closed, dumbers are going to jail.

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Grabbing the legally held shotgun legally justifies the shooting......you know that, right?

If he keeps running and gets shot, all together different.

Originally Posted by IndyCA35
Originally Posted by MIKEWERNER
Wish the kid was NOT killed....but both sides acted stupidly when things escalated. Now it is letter of the law that likely will become letter of politics.

Quote
Given the fact Arbery initiated the fight, at the point Arbery grabbed the shotgun, under Georgia Law , McMichael was allowed to use deadly force to protect himself.


You still don't get it?

"Acting stupidly" is not against the law.

Shooting joggers is against the law. Duh!

It doesn't matter whatever their prior history was.

It doesn't matter if they look like someone in some video.

Grabbing the shotgun, if he actually did that, is a logical reaction to prevent being shot!!

Case closed.



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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
It’s hard to claim self defense if the victim was pursued.
DF

There's no law in that jurisdiction against open carry, and there's no law there against following someone reasonably suspected of burglary while in contact with the police. Blocking his escape may have been legally questionable, which (if true) is what makes it an imperfect self-defense shooting, not murder. If the shooter isn't convictable for murder, the others involved are not convictable for felony murder.

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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye

They didn't have guns on them to shoot him to prevent escape. They were bearing arms in case needed to defend themselves from violence, such as the suspect attacking them in such a way as to be life threatening, as he actually did.


The racism is strong in this one, almost as strong as the anti-semitism.

If Dumb and Dumber needed to "defend themselves from violence," why did they go where the black guy was jogging in the first place? Hmmmm?


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Originally Posted by IndyCA35
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer


In today’s political climate they’re all in trouble.
DF


In ANY political climate they would be introuble. You can't just go around chasing and shooting someone who "looks like" he might have been someone on a surveillance video.


You've got the cart before the horse. No one chased anyone down to shoot them. They were, while armed, pursuing someone reasonably suspected of burglary when said suspect attacked and attempted to snatch a weapon from one of the pursuers. It was in response to this that the man was shot amidst the struggle for the gun.

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From said video it appears Ahmaud Arbery was running along the right side of the McMichael truck then abruptly turns 90 degrees to the left and attacks Travis McMichael who was standing at the front left corner of the truck .

Arbery’s mental health records & prior convictions help explain his apparent aggressive nature and his possible thought pattern to attack an armed man.


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Given the fact Arbery initiated the fight, at the point Arbery grabbed the shotgun, under Georgia Law , McMichael was allowed to use deadly force to protect himself.


"Those that think they know everything are annoying those of us that have Google." - Dr. D. Edward Wilkinson

Note to self: Never ask an old Fogey how he is doing today.
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EJP, it matters not what the pursuers knew of his criminal background. Violent criminal backgrounds are still relevant in self-defense claims. They tend to support a claim of violent behavior at the time in question.

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Originally Posted by MIKEWERNER
Grabbing the legally held shotgun legally justifies the shooting......you know that, right?

If he keeps running and gets shot, all together different.

Yep. Exactly.

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