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I have just read a very good study of 10.3, 12.5, and 14.5 inch velocities with several different "self defense" ammunition's. With 62 grain fusion going between 2530 and 2731 in a 10 or 14.5 inch barrel, and 77 grain going 2420 to 2575 from 10 to 14.5 barrel, its a long way from the 20 inch 55 grain 3300 fps we started with a bunch of years ago. Quite frankly the 55 at 3300 from a 20 seemed to be fairly effective as far as I can find. Why did we shorten the barrel to 14.5 inches, and start shooting heavier bullets? One wonders if a 55 grain gold dot from a 20 inch barrel would be more effective than a 77 grain MK from a 14.5 inch barrel out to 2-300 yards?


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Well the M4 is designed to make it easier to get in and out of cramped personnel carriers along with being handier indoors.


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I've found about a 300 fps difference in muzzle velocity between a 16" Colt barrel and a 23. 5" CZ (bolt-action ) barrel with most loads. I've never seen close to 3300 fps with 55 grain bullets form a 20" barrel, but perhaps it's possible.

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IIRC the 5.56 and M193 was 3300 from a 20?


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Originally Posted by jimmyp
I have just read a very good study of 10.3, 12.5, and 14.5 inch velocities with several different "self defense" ammunition's. With 62 grain fusion going between 2530 and 2731 in a 10 or 14.5 inch barrel, and 77 grain going 2420 to 2575 from 10 to 14.5 barrel, its a long way from the 20 inch 55 grain 3300 fps we started with a bunch of years ago. Quite frankly the 55 at 3300 from a 20 seemed to be fairly effective as far as I can find. Why did we shorten the barrel to 14.5 inches, and start shooting heavier bullets? One wonders if a 55 grain gold dot from a 20 inch barrel would be more effective than a 77 grain MK from a 14.5 inch barrel out to 2-300 yards?


Everything is "more effective" out of a 20. Hopefully that answers your question


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Originally Posted by jimmyp
I have just read a very good study of 10.3, 12.5, and 14.5 inch velocities with several different "self defense" ammunition's.


Jimmy,

Have a link?


Jerry


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Originally Posted by jimmyp
IIRC the 5.56 and M193 was 3300 from a 20?


More like 3260 IIRC


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Ya I'm thinking 3200ish. I'm getting just over 3100 in my 16" barrels, got 3000 in my 14.5's.

I need to get another 20" barrel one day and see if it made that much difference. I don't remember coyotes dying any deader but it'll be fun finding out again.

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Originally Posted by jerrywoodswalker
Originally Posted by jimmyp
I have just read a very good study of 10.3, 12.5, and 14.5 inch velocities with several different "self defense" ammunition's.


Jimmy,

Have a link?


Jerry


suppressed 5.56 SBR velocities

I remember Formidilousis liked this bullet.
Federal Fusion MSR 62gr
Ballistic Co-efficient .315 (G1)
The Chopping Block tested this ammo and got about 190% expansion (.384") @ 1700fps.


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great table
bullets and barrel lengths

there is some oddness in that some of the 55s dont seem to be a fast as the heavier bullets, but in general it looks like that 12.5 is a good length for a pistol, wish he had some 16 and 20 inch barrel comparisons.


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The fascination with stubby barrels for the .223 dazzles my funnybone. The disciples of that faith never cease to amaze.


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What is dazzling about it?


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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It makes me convulse in laughter mostly. I just don't get it. Basic platform for the 5.56 many moons ago was a nimble killer out to 300+ meters. They worked fine up close and personal as well. Once they got the bugs fixed it was reliable, light weight and low maintenance. We carried pistols to do a pistol's work. Way I see it something not broke was fixed in a curious way. To be clear, I'm not talking about military weapons, though I'd not want an M4 for a field weapon in the Mideast, it might be the schizzle for CQ, house to house stuff. I'm looking at the civilian offshoots.


I am..........disturbed.

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The purpose is a compact/maneuverable weapon for tight places like vehicles, houses, that can still defeat body armor.

...and can still reach out to 300 yards if needed.

Last edited by MontanaMarine; 05/15/20.
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The weapon firing 55 grains at 3290 FPS in FMJ form with cannelure, at 1-200 yards has been shown to be effective, so we shorten the barrel, probably increase the weight of the gun, and now look for special bullets at 2500 FPS to do about the same thing. The 10-12 inch pistols etc look pretty cool so you got that going for you, OTOH a pencil barreled 16-20 inch gun firing M193 55’s at 3100-3200 probably is as good or better than a 12.5 shooting 75 hornadys at 2300 from a 12.5. The emperors new clothes. I guess the army has to spend money.


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So far I've refrained from buying a pistol AR, or SBR. Shot next to one at an indoor range a few months ago and it was one god-awful loud beast. One of those cup-style flash hiders that direct the blast forward might be worthwhile.

I kind of like the idea of a short AR for a house/vehicle gun, but it may be a .300 BO instead.


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Originally Posted by jimmyp
The weapon firing 55 grains at 3290 FPS in FMJ form with cannelure, at 1-200 yards has been shown to be effective, so we shorten the barrel, probably increase the weight of the gun, and now look for special bullets at 2500 FPS to do about the same thing. The 10-12 inch pistols etc look pretty cool so you got that going for you, OTOH a pencil barreled 16-20 inch gun firing M193 55’s at 3100-3200 probably is as good or better than a 12.5 shooting 75 hornadys at 2300 from a 12.5. The emperors new clothes. I guess the army has to spend money.


The solution for a short barrel is not a heavier bullet.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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It's all a tradeoff between performance and size.

My favorite is around 14.5", and I've got barrels from 10.5" to 20" as my basis of experience.

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jimmyp Offline OP
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I just feel we have gone so far afield with this gun. It’s originally a high velocity 22 with a fragmenting bullet, now everyone is shooting 77 grain bullets at moderate velocities


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Originally Posted by jimmyp
I just feel we have gone so far afield with this gun. It’s originally a high velocity 22 with a fragmenting bullet, now everyone is shooting 77 grain bullets at moderate velocities


Not everyone.

I seldom shoot anything heavier then 64 grains. Most of what I shoot is between 52 and 62 grains.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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