Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Canada Canadian views on what might be called AR cartridges

I am talking about the 6x45mm (6mm/223), 6.5 Grendel, Hornady's new 6mm ARC, and others, designed with the AR platform in mind. Since we cannot use an AR for hunting, do you see value in any of these cartridges? .

THIS IS NOT A POST LOOKING FOR ARGUMENTS/DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE RESTRICTED USE OF ARs IN CANADA!!!! WE GET THAT. IT"S A CARTRIDGE QUESTION.

1. How many people here have a bolt action or single shot hunting/varmint rifle in one these or other cartridges?

2. Do you think that a 6.5 Grendel or 6x45mm used from a bolt action or single shot rifle is something you would consider?

3. If you already own a bolt action or single shot rifle chambered in one of these "AR cartridges", what motivated you to get it (them)?

Personally, living in Southern Ontario, I don’t need anything over .223 for varmints. And I don’t want to hunt deer or moose with smaller than 7mm. So anything in between is useless to me.

The only centre fire ammunition I use to hunt varmints has been the 22-250. Kind of mundane I suppose but it is a good round.
Jeff

I guess there aren't many bolts or SS rifles with cartridges inspired by the AR, up here.

We had Ruger Americans chambered in 6.5 Grendel here for a while. This chambering isn't being advertised by Cabelas or smaller stores that I can see.

Steve,

I'm a firm believer in modest cartridges like the ones you mentioned, and some others as well. I'm on my second Grendel, the first not being quite what I wanted. Have yet to shoot anything with it, but its ballistics put it within striking distance of the original ballistics of the .250 and even the .243, but with great bullets like the 129gr ABLR and 120gr Gold Dot. Leaves the .25/35 in the dust, except maybe for the panache or cool factor. It's been decades since I took a whack at a deer at over 100 yards; the places I hunt just don't offer such shots. While I've not clocked it yet, the load I'm working with now, the Gold Dot over a near-max load of PP 2000MR, zeroed at 100 yards is only about 1 1/2" low at 150, and doesn't fall below 1000 foot pounds of energy until 325. Velocity remains above 1800 past that. Actually, the load data shows it going somewhat faster than the 2500fps I used for my figures, but I went with the lower number to adjust for my slightly shorter barrel. The point of all this is that with good bullets and good shooting, the modest cartridges deliver plenty of deer power, while using about 2/3 the powder, and with very mild recoil and potentially long barrel life. I put the 6.8, within the first 200yards or so, in the same class, with the Russkie 7.62 a bit behind.

I've been thinking about a 6x45 for a while, but with the ARC out there, I'd go with that now, probably in a Howa, but maybe in a TC barrel. A lot of 6mm bullets have wandered into my stash, so it makes perfect Loony sense to get something (other than my .243 and 6CM) to use them up.

I hunt moose, elk, mule deer and whitetail. I hunt with 260, 6.5-06, 6.5mmRM, 264WM 30-06, 308Norma, 338-06, 338WM, 350RM and 358Norma.

Steve;
Top of the morning to you sir, I hope this finds you well and if it's wet in your area of the world as it's been here, then warm and dry too.

While I missed this the first time around, I'll answer as follows.

1. Currently I don't own any of the initially mentioned cartridges based on the .223 case other than a bolt gun in .223.

2. While I'm loathe to "ever say never", at this point I can't see building anything like a 6.5 Grendel - have a Swede and am much enamored with it - or a 6x45 as I'd likely lean towards a 6 Creed instead.

3.When I first picked up the .223 bolt gun, it was one of the first 1:8 twist Ruger Americans that crossed the medicine line. I found one at Prairie Gun Traders and I think Epps had one too, but anyways I wanted to try longer .223" bullets to see if I could stretch them in the wind a wee bit.

Way back in the early '90's I built a dedicated coyote bomber, but it's a .22-.250AI with a 1:14 twist like we all built back then, so 55gr is the sweet spot with it for wind drift, accuracy and velocity. Honestly life sorta got in the way for my plans to play at extended ranges, but I'm hopeful that I'll be able to perhaps finally get to it more this upcoming summer. I've got many boxes of 75gr A-Max and a good variety of powders, now all I need is the time!

Since we're not working around the AR action length, it just makes more sense to me to pick the overall characteristics of the cartridge I'm interested in and go from there - usually with a bolt gun, but not ruling out single shots either.

Hopefully that made sense sir. All the best to you all as we head into summer.

Dwayne

A 6x45 needs the appropriate light walking around platform for the conversion.

I’ve been thinking a lot about converting a 222 Sako to 20 Practical for the gopher / fox role that the 22-250 overpowers.

I currently own 2 6x45, 300 AAC, 223, 223AI , 222 .

7mmTCU and 222 Single Shots

I have previously owned another 6x45 , 2 6x47 Remington a number of other 223 and 222 and 6.8spc bolt action

F

I know that these cartridges would be more popular if we could hunt with them using an AR platform.

That said, the cartridges, regardless of which action is used, have proven themselves. As more AR based cartridges appear, the numbers in Canada will only increase.

I emailed MGM about their 6 & 6.5 Grendel barrels, asking if the G2 was a good platform for those or merely adequate. No answer yet, but while ruminating over it, I thought about the 7-30 Waters. It out runs the Grendel by a good bit and at lower pressure. Won't work in those ARs you can't have, but it's been a popular Contender round for a long time. Hornady makes ammo with the FTX bullet, and brass. 120gr at 2700 is nothing to sneeze at.

Well, my Grendel barrel should be here soon. I had it made for an Encore though.

I made enquiries about having MGM build me a 30-303 barrel for the Encore. The fellow I dealt with said he has to talk to the boss. They have 308 diameter barrels and 303 british reamers. He needs the go ahead to combine the two.

I have a couple of 6x45s and will have the Grendel shortly. Having a 30-303 built for an Encore would make the 308 Win, 30-06 and the 6.5 CM obsolete!

I've got a Cooper single shot bolt action .204 Ruger and another in .17 Fireball, both heavy barrels. My calling gun is a .223 bolt action with a blind magazine (Kimber Montana). And I have a BDL style Remington 700 with a PacNor .204 Ruger sporter barrel.

You see a few wildcats based off the .223 and 222 rem mag out west here, and some guys are going nutz on the 6ARC, 6.5 Grendel and the smaller cased stuff, but in reality , it's all about what you want too shoot , much like hot rodding and custom bikes.
Personally, I am having a great time these days with my 6mmBR , but I shoot single shot mach rifles in those little cartridges- hunting wise I use bigger stuff in my falling blocks, the smallest these days being a .260 on a Highwall.
The AR style stuff may catch on down south of the Border but I see them as a bit of an odd duck up here.
Cat

As you've stated correctly the cartridges mentioned are based off the enormously popular AR platform. They exist mainly because they are a distinct improvement over the 223. Without the AR however, it's doubtful that they would even exist.

That being said, it's a non issue in Canada as we cannot take advantage of the platform like they can in the U.S. Not in hunting and obviously now not in competition either.

I personally can't see myself buying any of these in a bolt gun as there are better more popular options out there.

I own a 6.5 Grendel and two 6x45mms. . The Grendel is a single shot. I got it because of its capability and characteristics. Specifically, a small 6.5 that was deer capable out farther than I normally shoot. The 6x45mm are bolts that I built myself and are just about perfect for central Ontario deer ranges. Farther for coyotes. The cartridges appealed to me because of what they capable of doing, and their efficiency. There are lots of bullets available too.

Because I reload, both are appealing for their simplicity.

WRT the 6x45, 223 Rem cases are cheap, whether you buy them new or buy surplus, once fired cases. The cases are easy to form and, depending on the barrel twist, can handle bullets up to 100 gr. Seating the bullets longer than 2.26 inches in a BA repeater is an advantage over the AR platform.

The 6.5 Grendel isn't quite as cheap, but it's still an efficient cartridge. It has more punch than the 6x45mm for only a few grains more of powder.

I don't think of the firearm. I love being able to play around with cartridges.

Cartridges and firearms are always personal things. I still wonder how many cartridges originally developed for the AR platform are in use in Canada.

I find that, for myself, the older I get, the less enamored with the big cartridges I get. My primary hunting cartridges are the 6.5X55, 7mm Mauser, and the 270 Win. These do everything I need, up to and including elk. Although the cartridges you mentioned were primarily designed for the AR, they do make wonderful "deer" cartridges in bolts and singles shots, along with the AR. Everyone has their own idea of what is perfect, so there will always be arguments.

I have been putting something together about the 6x45mm. I have a target rifle (It weighs 14 lb), and a walkabout rifle chambered in 6x45mm. The 6x45mm is a viable option for where I live. I have been testing bullets from 55 to 90 gr. Not all are done yet, but I will be shooting 15 in total. It keeps me out of the Corona bars.

I have been shooting and reloading the 6x45mm for a number of years in the AR15 platform. Lately have been thinking of having a contender barrel chambered for this round. Looking at a longer seating depth is what I am trying to figure out now before I order a MGM barrel. Made up some dummy cartridges to see what COAL can be achieved with different bullets. For example the Sierra 85 grain Game King #1530 can be seated out to 2.400" pretty easy.

So I would like to ask those who have a 6x45mm what COAL they are getting and if they had the chamber throated long or not.

I have bought a bunch of MGM barrels. When you are on the site filling in the length, barrel twist, etc., there is question about sending in a dummy cartridge for them to use to throat it. If you do not send them a dummy cartridge, it will be long throated.

I have two Shilen barrels. Both are long throated as well - not because I asked. It seems to be standard.

Steve thanks for the info, think I will just go without sending in the dummy cartridge. Just going to let them know I plan on using 70 to 90 grain bullets.

With components being so scarce now I am looking at what all I have here to load. Got a couple thousand 6mm bullets and plenty of 223 brass to keep me shooting for a long time. I do shoot and load for the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC among lots of other chamberings but right now the 6x45 is looking pretty good to me.

I have rifles for many purposes, but can't find a purpose for a 6mm any more. I hunt varmints ( .22 cal centerfires and rimfire) and fur bearing critters like coyotes ( similar .22 cal cartridges / bullets) and I used to shoot .243's or .250 Savage / .257 Roberts cartridges for deer, but found I prefer either faster / longer range cartridges or heavier bullets. So now the .25-06 / 120 grain is my smallest caliber rifle for hoofed game. And I prefer 7mm for most medium game. A 140 grain bullet at 2800 fps is a good starting point for me. And I am content to use a couple of very accurate .222 and .308 rifles for target shooting. So none of the new AR cartridges appeal to me for any purpose I can think of.

I think you'll like it. My rifles are both 1 in 10 twist and shoot 70 to 90 grain bullets just fine. This target is 40 shots with two different bullets, shooting into 2.4 inches. The 6x45mm is capable of great accuracy. In this case, the accuracy was helped by a Shilen SM barrel. The cases weren't Lapua, Starline or any of the high priced brass. They were once fired military brass opened up to 6mm. When you launch an 85 gr bullet at 2700-2750 fps, it has an effective range of about 150 yards on deer.



This target was the very first I fired after loading up some home made 76 gr. bullets. Like the 223, the 6x45mm isn't finicky WRT loads or bullets. Some shoot better than others, but you won't have to work very hard to find a load that works.

Just placed the order with MGM for a 6x45mm 20" stainless steel medium factory contour barrel. The wait begins, but gives me some time to think about a scope and some rings.

Ill jump in since it seems more Americans have Canadian views than
Canadians.


Those cartridges exist to fit in the space constraints of the AR platform.
Unless you have one of a very few actions scaled to fit them,
what's the point?

I can load 6x45 or Grendel performance from 6mm/243 or 260/Creed
if I want that low performance from a short action.

Given the recoil levels of full power loads, I can't imagine a reason to.
If I'm trying to suit a kid, lower pressured rounds would help noise levels
slightly. Advantage bigger rounds.

223 I can see due to high volume varmints. Thats not me though.

Not if CZ would change their safety and price the guns like they were
in the past? A Grende l or a 7.62x39 would be cool as hell in a tiny
527 Carbine.

JMHO

IMHO the range is much longer than 150. Having done almost to 600 and just fine results of 75s at about 2700. Its bullet choice and where you hit em.

Since the 6x45mm is a necked up 223, any action chambered to the 223 should work just fine. Do you think that the action should be scaled down to a mini Mauser size? I had a mini Mauser in 7.62x39. I found it was like carrying a toy rifle. I guess we all have our preferences.



I haven't shot anything with my 6x45s past 250 to 300 yd, but they were coyotes, not deer. Personally, I wouldn't use a 6x45mm for deer for distances past about 150 yd, but that's a personal choice.

I think shooting a 223 is cheating in Farky class.

I think the mini Mausers are cool as hell.
Never owned one though.
Wouldn't be the first time I got something I really liked,
and ended up owning something I didn't really like.

Steve: I had a .223 as my primary varmint rifle (CZ) sold it and bought a .17 HMR also a CZ. I really only shoot squirrels of the ground and tree variety so nothing larger was needed. For my style of shooting involving lots of walking and shooting kneeling or sitting off of cross sticks the .17 has the same effective range as the .223; limited of course by my skill set not the inherent range of the cartridges.

I had a Swiss Arms Special Green for several years it was fun and I had a passing fancy of putting a 6mm barrel on it and hunting deer with it. Never followed through with it as I do not really like the semi auto platform. It was sold a couple of years before the Trudope OIC ban.

On the rare times I put any effort into shorting coyotes I have used “deer” cartridges with varmint bullets, .270, .260 and .25-06.

I find myself solidly in the bolt gun camp, I have owned and hunted with single shots both break action and falling block, lever guns, bolt guns of course but never a semi auto. I now only have bolt and lever rifles.

The go to calibres for everything over squirrel variants over the past 7 years have been; .260, .270, 7-08, .325 WSM, 9.3x62 (since sold). Next up in the development team 6.5 PRC (rebarreled my .325), .375 H&H and .243 I’ve had for years but has never met expectations.

I do not see myself ever moving into the AR based cartridges. If something lighter is needed “downloading” a larger cartridges works well. I recently loaded hunting ammunition for a buddy who took his slightly built 14 year old nephew hunting, the .243 with the 85 grain TTSX loaded a third of the way up from minimum charge provided an easy shooting load completely capable of killing deer within the 200 yard limit set by my buddy and his nephew.

Sorry for the long drawn out response when a simple “not interested” might have sufficed but I did want to provide the background for my response.

No problem. Having discussions is fun and informative. Not like most that happen here. God help you if you disagree!

A lot of people do not recognize that we hunt in different areas, with different terrains and for different animals. Since I got back to Ontario, most of my hunting is at ranges of 250 yards or less. Your requirements are different than mine. The same goes with scopes and action types. We all have our likes and dislikes.

Absolutely.

I have mentioned my experiences with cartridges and
some bullets. Not extensive by any means, but more than
one offs also.

Thing is, I don't make [bleep] up.
I'm also someone who thinks the situation out and
tries to come to a legitimate conclusion.

The things I have seen might be much different hunting
in different ways. Even just how one places shots.

Some things I see bother me.

For example, 308, 165 BT (old 100 count box)
For some reason, I get the absolute best kills on deer
with that setup. Without destroying them.

Better than smaller rounds, better than 7mm and 300 mags.

I think bullet choices in the others are an issue,
But the same bullets in the 300 haven't seemed as good?

Weird!
Doesn't make sense, even to me.

Not my thing but if people enjoy a different chambering why not. My bases are covered with .223 for coyotes and the .243 for a crossover deer/coyote gun, but I have nothing against someone wanting a unique cartridge. I don’t think they’ll ever take off here though.

The AR is a very good platform for hunting. Up here, we could use Robinson Arms in -say- 6.5 Grendel, but it come to over $2.5k. RDB and Tavor are not there yet.
Without the AR - which would come at a comparable price with a bolt rifle - the interest is exponentially diminished, as tinkerers are not motivated and the novelty not spread... making the whole deal arduous.
A lot of Canadians hunt with SKS and many used M14. That would be a crowd interested in Grendel or 6.8...

Another case that you might consider is the 25-45 Sharps.

Here in BC we have large areas to hunt , still. The primary game are deer and moose. A 30.06/308 is an ideal cartridge for such a hunter. .Bear, wolves, coyote and elk are also on the menu. But I haven't heard of anyone in BC going after varmints, they have to travel to Alberta for that.

The 25-45 Sharps is an interesting cartridge as well.

The younger generation who are looking for a deer cartridge, good to 300 yd, don't care for Granddad's old 30-30, but they might be interested in what US shooters use in their ARs. 6x45mm, 25-45 Sharps, 6.5 Grendel. Just for fun, I crunched some recoil and velocity numbers for the 6.5 Grendel and the 30-30. Perhaps develop a load for their AR that can do double duty in a bolt or SS rifle.

I have shot all these loads from either my Contender, Encore or lever. The yardage, after the bullet weight, indicates how far from the muzzle the bullet gets with less than one inch of drop and retains over 1000 ft/lb of energy.

The difference between 8 and 13 ft/lb of recoil isn't important I don't think, but the reach of the cartridges is. I think if I was looking for a 300 yd or less deer cartridge, I would be tempted to check out the Grendel.

Some food for thought.


6.5 Grendel - 2600 fps MV - - 123 SST - 250 yd - less than an inch of drop - 1000+ ft/lb -- 8 ft/lb recoil

30-30 - 2450 fps MV - 150 Hornady RN - 160 yd - less than an inch of drop - 1000+ ft/lb -- 13 ft/lb recoil

30-30 - 2580 fps MV - 125 Hornady SST - 175 yd - less than an inch of drop - 1000+ ft/lb -- 8.5 ft/lb recoil
30-30 - 2300 fps MV - 150 Hornady SST - 175 yd - less than an inch of drop - 1000+ ft/lb --11 ft/lb recoil