Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Mausers and Military Rifles '03 A3 ballistics?

Been asking on the collectors forums, trying to find which ammo the '03 A3 sight was designed for. Significant differences between M-1 and M-2 ball ammo ballistics would suggest that, beyond 400 yards, the range settings on the rear sight would be almost useless. 174 gr boat tail vs 152 grain flatbase. Anybody know where to look?

Hatcher's Notebook ?

Should be the common WW2 load, the 152 gr. flat base. The 174 gr boat tail is usually WW1 stuff. Bruce Canfield has written many books n articles about weapons, you might like to goggle him and M1- M2 30 caliber ammunition. Good luck with it, Mel

I have a copy of the WWII US Army Field Manual for the US Rifle, Caliber .30, M1903, M1903A3 and M1903A4. It only devotes 3 pages out of a total of 323 to the specific subject of ammunition, listing 7 types of ammunition as authorized for these rifles, M2 Ball, M1 Ball, M1906 Ball, Tracer, Armor Piercing, Guard and Dummy rounds. It lists the muzzle velocities of the various rounds but no other ballistic information. It does not mention Match ammunition.

The section on sighting in the rifle does not specify which type to use, although the procedure described could be used for any of the live rounds. As a practical matter, "ball ammunition" for use in the 03/A3 would have had to be almost exclusively M2 152 gr. flat base, since that was the version that was produced during WWII. I can't imagine that the sights would have been calibrated for anything else. Whatever stocks that existed of the older and obsolete M1 and M1906 were probably used up in training early in the war.

WWI load was the original .30 M1906 Ball ammo- 150 grain cupro-nickel jacketed spitzer at 2700 fps. M1 Ball came later, the heavier boat tailed bullet was wanted to give weapons a longer distance capability- but it came with a price. Heavier recoil was bitched about, overpenetration of backstops at some facilities, and eventually in the late 30's it proved to be too much for the new M1 Garand's gas system/op rods. That precipitated the adoption of Ball M2 which was nothing more nor less the original 1906 load but with a gilding metal jacket.

Armor piercing ammo was issued to frontline rifleman a heckuva lot for reasons of obviously better penetration of stuff.

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I have seen a number of references that stated that Armor Piercing was actually more accurate on average than ball ammo as well.

Thanks fellas, The jury is in, verdict: 150 grain flat base at around 2700 fps should get me close to the sight graduations.
Not meant to be argumentative in any way, I too have read the grunts liked AP for accuracy, but in the back pages of Cartridges of the World they list the specs of .30-06 and M-2 shows 7.5" mean radius at 600 yds as an accuracy minimum whereas AP has a 10" mean radius, maybe actual performance was a lot better than the published minimum.

I am speculating that the AP (heavier) didn’t drift as much.

Historically, U.S. Ball ammo of all types turned in accuracy well above the official minimum requirements, as did typically the rifles of the period. M1903 Springfield service rifles had a minimum standard of accuracy to achieve when the rifles were targeted before leaving the Armory- something on the order of 2-3MOA. Typical accuracy achieved was around 1/2 to 2/3 of that. Note: that was with full-stocked rifles with the factory machined inletting (no hand fitting/bedding for the best fit), and iron sights. The Armory builta helluva rifle, but then came the War and standards and manufacturing tolerances were loosened in the interest of increased production, which is why Remington and Smith-Corona 1903A3's don't often measure up as well to the beloved pre-war '03's.

There's a photograph floating around that shows the targeting house operated by the Armory. Long line of shooting benches in the open air room facing the target butts. Guys at each bench with a rifle, and racks of rifles waiting their turn behind them. Piles of empty '06 brass piled ankle deep around them. What a helluva job that must have been. Note also that those guys who worked that job were a tight-knit group and hung out together outside of work. Weekends, after firing ungodly amounts of .30-06 ammo during the week, they had a recreational organization- a shooting club at which they continued shooting....

Well in the interest of info.... Where is the best source of M2 ball or reproduction M2 ball ammo for today's Springfield and Garand shooters of DCM type matches? MB

Someone else has to answer that. I load my own, and have done so for decades since the price of US surplus Ball ammo escalated above $5/100!!

There was some ammo labeled Wolf Classic Military available online and in stores a couple years back, cheap, but not memorably accurate. Of the guys I know that are competing, they just saved the brass and went back to reloading their own. I think CMP surplus dried up years ago. In the match accurized Garand, I never thought M-2 ball (or at least the Lake City my club had) was worth a hoot anyway. But, in the interests of honesty, I ain't no David Tubb. Better shooters than I had trouble holding the ten ring on the SR-1 target during leg matches.

Gnnoah, I load all my own also but this ammo a friend wants. MB

For a Springfield bolt gun with decent headspace (and not a low serial number) any modern factory loads would be safe. Accurate is another matter and for that there's only one way to find out.

I never knew an "out of the box" M1 that shot as well as a good Springfield. (Personal experience mind you.) Plenty good mind you just not "as good". Bedding protocols can upset that applecart though. Love me an M1, so please no hate mail!😇

think 308. the 308 was designed to give garand ballistics in a selective fire somewhat lighter package.

m2 150 @ 2700. sound familiar? 174, same story.

I own both rifles and the 03a3 is more accurate.

I also have a decided affinity for the M1.

Mostly looking for a service load that will run flawlessly in the Garand at the original ballistics to match the sights.
MB

Fleet/Farm was running a special on American Eagle 150 gr FMJ a few years back. It followed the M1's sight graduation quite well.

I have a 1903A3 I bought from James River Armory. It has a new Criterion match barrel, new walnut, and milled bottom metal.

According to Hatcher's notebook, the M2 load featured a 152-grain bullet at 2850 fps. My rifle really likes the 155 Nosler on top of 50 grains of IMR4064 for a measured 2850 fps. It groups under 4 inches at 200 yards, and I'm sure a lot of that group size is due to my sighting error. I had a replacement front sight milled extra tall so I could file it down for a 200-yard zero. Here is a recent 50-yard group.

[img]https://previews.dropbox.com/p/thum...Do/p.jpeg?size=2048x1536&size_mode=3[/img]

Same here, although my 03A3 has a Criterion match barrel. M1's not bad, though.

I've chrono'ed bunches of various M2 Ball loads over the years and never got 2850 fps. 27-2800 was the range. Some WWI Ball ammo fetched up 2700 fps on the bean.

Oops, my bad. I checked my copy of Hatcher's notebook and it reports, on page 29, that the M2 velocity specification was 2805 fps, not 2850.

Kinda off the path but, where those service loads tubulars? I think I heard somewhere that the British and jap loads tumbled. Just curious.

Not to my knowledge. But, never having been witness to the wounding effect of this ammo I have no empirical knowledge of it.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "tubular". Spitzer FMJ bullets will tend to swap ends after striking flesh, simply due to the centre of mass being toward the rear in flight and tending to get ahead of the point on the sharp deceleration in flesh. This was recognised very early, as was the effect on wounding potential, which led to some countries changing the design to push the COM even further to the rear to amplify the effect - Britain's Mk VII Ball load for the .303 being a case in point, with lightweight filler material inserted in the nose to push the COM back. Some bullets designs will also tend to break up as a result of the tumbling, amplifying the wounding potential even further.

The .30 Ball of 1906, and the S Ball for the 8x57 from which it was copied,are simple spitzer bullets, jacketed from the nose. They don't have a lightweight filler in the nose like the British Mk VII, nor do they have an air space or other mods to push the COM rearward. The M2 Ball is the same as the 1909 form of the .30 Ball load (there had been a couple of tweaks of the design between 1906 and 1909, including a cannelure introduced in 1909) save for having a gilding metal jacket instead of cupronickel.

FWIW US Ordnance had tested tubular bullets (of the Krnka-Hebler type) in the Krag, and a few in .45/70, back in about 1894, but I'm guessing that this wasn't what you had in mind.

Tumble/tumblers. Yeah that spell check thing....

Thanks for the insight.

The Marine Corps snipers and Army in WWII found and preferred pre-war Model 70 Winchesters. They were purchased and issued
on a very limited basis. Mine will outshoot any 1903 A3 or M1D hands down. The early Model 70s were used at
Chosin Reservoir and Khe Sanh by the Marines-usually with Unertls or Lyman Alaskan scopes.
Special Forces used them as the sniper weapon of choice. Unertls and Leupolds.

MACVSOG 71-72
KheSanh-71

I was given some of that ammo. The batch I got was total crap. Didn't group worth a damn from an accurate bolt rifle. One round had no powder. The necks were not uniform at all so the empties couldn't be assembled into good handloads.

Mathman, you think 168 BTHP Hornady bullets would feed ok in a Garand? MB

Thanks Vic. MB

I'm pretty sure they would. Look to load in the neighborhood of 47 or 47.5 grains of RL15, Varget or N140, or 46.3 grains of N135. These are all Garand appropriate loads, and they all shoot very well with 168 grain Hornady BTHP and AMAX bullets out of my Rem 700.

I posted the PPU info on the chance you may be looking for a commercial load..

I have two Garands that get a steady diet of them on top of 46 grs of H4895, no feeding issues at all.

Thanks ht, appreciate the info. MB

My two Garands get a diet of 49 grains of IMR 4895 with a 150 grain whatever over it. It's not Camp Perry accurate but it's fun to shoot. But it is deadly on hogs with the right 150 grain bullet.


However, if I want to shoot a heavier bullet I would want to use a slower powder. In that case I would look into a gas block. That will protect your op rod from damage from too much pressure but still allow max velocity.

there is still surplus military ammo floating around originally sold by cmp. greek or otherwise re imported.
i have a certain amount. this is from poor memory, but during wwII think there were at least seven plants making ammo.
i know i managed to get a can from a number of the plants from cmp.
i also know that the army repacked ammo from the pacific in hawaii in the early 50's in sealed containers. I have several of them never opened.
as to cupernickel, a few years back we ran across about 17000 rounds of early 50's french produced m2 ball. it had sat in storage in phoenix in a uncooled garage for all those years. ammo was bad for primer, brass reasons and other things. but the bullets were pulled, cupernickel, and the powder of an unknown type was saved. cupernickel bullets were reset in new brass/primers, and working up from a light load of that powder, and using a chrony, we got to 2750fps. interesting thing was even given the history of the original powder etc, there was only maybe
10/15fps variance between rounds in five shot strings.

another little oddity. few years back i bought a complete untouched arisaka from a very old man that wanted it to go to good home. it had been fired four rounds from some norma ammo, thats it. he was on mcArthurs's staff in tokyo at the end of the war, and brought it home along with a original sling and bayonet from the same plant. What he also brought home was a single round or ammo he said was for the gun.. except it wasn't, it was 30.06 stamped frankfurt arsonel something like 1935. I pointed that out to him, and how it got to tokyo is anyones guess.
as to the a.p. stuff, a now deceased brother in law was a landing craft driver in a number of pacific campaigns, but often went a shore. of course he was navy, but said prefered the springfield to a garand as the sand and stuff didn't jam them as bad and easier to clean.. also prefered the a.p., as japs thinking they were safe in bunkers made out of palm tree trunks found out to late there were not safe. for what it's worth.
the price of a.p. when you find it, is kind of rich these days, but i know of one distributor a few years ago that had over a million rounds of it for sale, it didn't last long.
ammo can be functional for a long time. I have personally fired 8mm german stuff out of a mg42 originally produced for operation barbarosa, have a case, unopened of WWII german 8mm, and another case made for the austrian/hungarian 91/30 straight pull. works just fine.
what i can't bring myself to do is to open an unopened box of ammo for the spencer carbine, and fire a round or two, but it is tempting.

thats about what i have traditionally used.

that friend of mine that uncorked all that french ammo, used to use a 210grain i think it was lyman cast bullet, or it might have been around 180grain, a head of a charge of unique.
i know there is a load in one of my old lyman books describing that load. quite accurate, low recoil.

Yes +- 10 grs. of Unique is used quite often in full size military rounds.

Years ago(1960) when surplus 06 ammo was still widely available and I was very short on cash, I would make hunting ammo by pulling the bullets from military 06 ammo and replacing them with 150 grain soft points. It's my recollection that most of those rounds had about 49 grains of powder that looked like surplus IMR 4895 which could be had at the time for a dollar per pound. I hope that helps.

No expert here, but I thought ( "seem to remember reading..." ) that 30-06 machine gun ammo ( not AP ammo) was considered more accurate in rifles, than the standard 150 grain fmj loads.

Nah, one and the same ammo. A lot of ammo made during the World Wars that was intended for use in fixed aerial machine guns (not reachable by pilots/crew in order to clear jams) was loaded with primers given an extra heavy primer crimp to minimize jams induced by backed out primers.