Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Mausers and Military Rifles '03 A3 ballistics?

Been asking on the collectors forums, trying to find which ammo the '03 A3 sight was designed for. Significant differences between M-1 and M-2 ball ammo ballistics would suggest that, beyond 400 yards, the range settings on the rear sight would be almost useless. 174 gr boat tail vs 152 grain flatbase. Anybody know where to look?

Hatcher's Notebook ?

Should be the common WW2 load, the 152 gr. flat base. The 174 gr boat tail is usually WW1 stuff. Bruce Canfield has written many books n articles about weapons, you might like to goggle him and M1- M2 30 caliber ammunition. Good luck with it, Mel

I have a copy of the WWII US Army Field Manual for the US Rifle, Caliber .30, M1903, M1903A3 and M1903A4. It only devotes 3 pages out of a total of 323 to the specific subject of ammunition, listing 7 types of ammunition as authorized for these rifles, M2 Ball, M1 Ball, M1906 Ball, Tracer, Armor Piercing, Guard and Dummy rounds. It lists the muzzle velocities of the various rounds but no other ballistic information. It does not mention Match ammunition.

The section on sighting in the rifle does not specify which type to use, although the procedure described could be used for any of the live rounds. As a practical matter, "ball ammunition" for use in the 03/A3 would have had to be almost exclusively M2 152 gr. flat base, since that was the version that was produced during WWII. I can't imagine that the sights would have been calibrated for anything else. Whatever stocks that existed of the older and obsolete M1 and M1906 were probably used up in training early in the war.

WWI load was the original .30 M1906 Ball ammo- 150 grain cupro-nickel jacketed spitzer at 2700 fps. M1 Ball came later, the heavier boat tailed bullet was wanted to give weapons a longer distance capability- but it came with a price. Heavier recoil was bitched about, overpenetration of backstops at some facilities, and eventually in the late 30's it proved to be too much for the new M1 Garand's gas system/op rods. That precipitated the adoption of Ball M2 which was nothing more nor less the original 1906 load but with a gilding metal jacket.

Armor piercing ammo was issued to frontline rifleman a heckuva lot for reasons of obviously better penetration of stuff.

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I have seen a number of references that stated that Armor Piercing was actually more accurate on average than ball ammo as well.

Thanks fellas, The jury is in, verdict: 150 grain flat base at around 2700 fps should get me close to the sight graduations.
Not meant to be argumentative in any way, I too have read the grunts liked AP for accuracy, but in the back pages of Cartridges of the World they list the specs of .30-06 and M-2 shows 7.5" mean radius at 600 yds as an accuracy minimum whereas AP has a 10" mean radius, maybe actual performance was a lot better than the published minimum.

I am speculating that the AP (heavier) didn’t drift as much.

Historically, U.S. Ball ammo of all types turned in accuracy well above the official minimum requirements, as did typically the rifles of the period. M1903 Springfield service rifles had a minimum standard of accuracy to achieve when the rifles were targeted before leaving the Armory- something on the order of 2-3MOA. Typical accuracy achieved was around 1/2 to 2/3 of that. Note: that was with full-stocked rifles with the factory machined inletting (no hand fitting/bedding for the best fit), and iron sights. The Armory builta helluva rifle, but then came the War and standards and manufacturing tolerances were loosened in the interest of increased production, which is why Remington and Smith-Corona 1903A3's don't often measure up as well to the beloved pre-war '03's.

There's a photograph floating around that shows the targeting house operated by the Armory. Long line of shooting benches in the open air room facing the target butts. Guys at each bench with a rifle, and racks of rifles waiting their turn behind them. Piles of empty '06 brass piled ankle deep around them. What a helluva job that must have been. Note also that those guys who worked that job were a tight-knit group and hung out together outside of work. Weekends, after firing ungodly amounts of .30-06 ammo during the week, they had a recreational organization- a shooting club at which they continued shooting....

Well in the interest of info.... Where is the best source of M2 ball or reproduction M2 ball ammo for today's Springfield and Garand shooters of DCM type matches? MB

Someone else has to answer that. I load my own, and have done so for decades since the price of US surplus Ball ammo escalated above $5/100!!

There was some ammo labeled Wolf Classic Military available online and in stores a couple years back, cheap, but not memorably accurate. Of the guys I know that are competing, they just saved the brass and went back to reloading their own. I think CMP surplus dried up years ago. In the match accurized Garand, I never thought M-2 ball (or at least the Lake City my club had) was worth a hoot anyway. But, in the interests of honesty, I ain't no David Tubb. Better shooters than I had trouble holding the ten ring on the SR-1 target during leg matches.

Gnnoah, I load all my own also but this ammo a friend wants. MB

For a Springfield bolt gun with decent headspace (and not a low serial number) any modern factory loads would be safe. Accurate is another matter and for that there's only one way to find out.

I never knew an "out of the box" M1 that shot as well as a good Springfield. (Personal experience mind you.) Plenty good mind you just not "as good". Bedding protocols can upset that applecart though. Love me an M1, so please no hate mail!😇

think 308. the 308 was designed to give garand ballistics in a selective fire somewhat lighter package.

m2 150 @ 2700. sound familiar? 174, same story.

I own both rifles and the 03a3 is more accurate.

I also have a decided affinity for the M1.

Mostly looking for a service load that will run flawlessly in the Garand at the original ballistics to match the sights.
MB

Fleet/Farm was running a special on American Eagle 150 gr FMJ a few years back. It followed the M1's sight graduation quite well.

I have a 1903A3 I bought from James River Armory. It has a new Criterion match barrel, new walnut, and milled bottom metal.

According to Hatcher's notebook, the M2 load featured a 152-grain bullet at 2850 fps. My rifle really likes the 155 Nosler on top of 50 grains of IMR4064 for a measured 2850 fps. It groups under 4 inches at 200 yards, and I'm sure a lot of that group size is due to my sighting error. I had a replacement front sight milled extra tall so I could file it down for a 200-yard zero. Here is a recent 50-yard group.

[img]https://previews.dropbox.com/p/thum...Do/p.jpeg?size=2048x1536&size_mode=3[/img]

Same here, although my 03A3 has a Criterion match barrel. M1's not bad, though.