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Re: So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in? [Re: TF49] #14987195 06/21/20
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Originally Posted by TF49
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by TF49
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by TF49
For DBT......One clear example of this is indeed Titus1:12....

Paul is talking about correcting false teachers...

Here is what Paul says...”As one of their own prophets has said, ‘Cretan are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”

Paul goes on to confirm the idea that false teachers should be rebuked..... by the way, he mentions “dishonorable gain”. Whoever wrote your point #5 was deliberately incomplete in the description and I am pretty sure had slander as a motive.

Whoever wrote the comment on your point #5 fails.... on purpose, to present the context.

Who is the false teacher here?



Titus wasn't written by Paul, but you already know that.




Well, this is interesting. One atheist claims Paul, in his writings, borrowed from Greek philosophy and another atheist claims that Paul didn’t write Titus.

Figures.....


Later today, I will finish up on the letter to Titus for DBT.

Perhaps in the meantime, you can tell us why Paul was not the author of Titus?


My point was in relation to the claim that the bible, the new testament, etc, is the inspired word of God, yet here we have Paul not being inspired by God, not putting his own thoughts to parchment, but copying the work of Pagans, Greek Philosophers.

Can you not see the implications of this for the bible?




Yes, I can see it and you are totally wrong. Paul's use of some reference to the culture of the day is entirely appropriate and does not negate the inspiration of what he says.....

DBT and his comment: “So again. If St Paul copied from Greek philosophy, he was not using his own thoughts or reasoning or being inspired by God, he was copying other people’s work, the work of Greek Philosophers.”

Note that Titus is in Crete and Paul is advising him on how to deal with rebellious dissenters and ….. deceivers there in Crete as he is tasked with building up the church. There are problems in Crete and Paul is advising. Paul is providing Titus with material to use and insight.

However, your point is that if he copied …. or quoted from other sources, he was not using his own thoughts? Right….. and since it was not his own “reasoning” it could not be inspired by God.

Your point might have a tiny bit of merit if he was using the quotes to add doctrine and introduce a new teaching. He is of course NOT doing that at all. That would be like saying it is God’s word that “….Cretans are always liars, evil beasts , slow bellies….”

Note that no one has ever said that this was Paul’s point. In fact, he does indeed attribute the comment to an earlier poet from Crete. He did this to help make a point…. perhaps some “riffing” …. perhaps to put in a line call attention of the Cretans to that saying. This is not doctrine that he is teaching.
Any implication that Paul used Greek philosophy and massaged it into Christian doctrine is simple deceit, fabricated to undermine Paul’s teachings.

Consider this.... let's suppose God wanted to make a point to someone and while doing so, explained to them about what FDR may have said in 1941. Would that communication be invalidated because of God's reference what FDR said?

No, it would not be invalidated.

btw.... Jesus often used figures of speech. If someone did not understand this he might misunderstand when Jesus said He was the "gate for the sheep."

The point is this...…not understanding is not reason to toss out all that you do not understand. I have literally heard people object to Jesus as He could not possible be "bread."

The article you quote from says this: “….. there are also passages….. where Christian teachings are explained using concepts from Greek philosophy….” This is for the purpose of explaining and transmitting understanding to people of differing languages and cultures. The use of “Greek philosophy” is simply a tool to assist in conveying a Christian teaching. Nothing else.



For my point to stand, it doesn't matter who wrote it.

It doesn't matter if it was Paul or a bunch of anonymous scribes who wrote that which was undeniably copied from Greek philosophy.

Authorship of the new testament, the gospels and some of the works ascribed to Paul is questionable in any case. That is beside the point.

It makes no difference because we clearly have copying from Greek philosophy rather than divine revelation at work.

It's there for anyone to see.

It has nothing to do with me, or me being wrong.

There it is, anyone can see it: Greek philosophy. Does divine revelation need to copy from Greek philosophers in order to teach the word of God?

Last edited by DBT; 06/21/20.
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Re: So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in? [Re: DBT] #14987255 06/21/20
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Originally Posted by DBT
Does divine revelation need to copy from Greek philosophers in order to teach the word of God?


Paul was up against some stiff competition,
that being James the brother of Jesus, who was
was already a dominant leader in Jerusalem,
when Paul was new on the scene.

James was about adhering to the old observances,
for both Jew and gentile, so Paul needed a plan to
outdo him... Pull out every trick in the book.
Paul may well have felt inadequate, so he employed
pretences.

PRETENCE = A way of behaving that does not honestly
express your authentic feelings, thoughts, or intentions


-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Re: So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in? [Re: jaguartx] #14987300 06/21/20
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So the question: where is divine revelation to be found in all this?

Re: So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in? [Re: jaguartx] #14987332 06/21/20
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Only in the minds of those wanting it to be there.

Re: So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in? [Re: jaguartx] #14987339 06/21/20
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Paul was all things to all people.

his apparent outward conformity would alter
depending which of the [particular] widely varied
people he was trying to appeal to at any one
time and place. ... It was all a put on.

a chameleon who made himself look like
part of the decor of the different minds he
was attempting to sway.




-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Re: So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in? [Re: DBT] #14987620 06/21/20
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Originally Posted by DBT
So the question: where is divine revelation to be found in all this?

I thought the question was: Where is the missing link?


“When debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”
- Socrates
Re: So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in? [Re: jaguartx] #14987646 06/21/20
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Of the 5 or 6 theories postulated by the modern unbelieving scientists and presented on the initial thread video and pushed by modern science which they all profess to ascribe, no unbeliever has claimed one.

Makes me wonder if they even watched the presentation by the guy a lot of their so called expert scientists wont even debate.

I reckon they know it all or dont want their ideas shaken.

Last edited by jaguartx; 06/21/20.

Ecc 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.

DONT BE GETTING ANY CORONA ON YA

"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".

I Dindo Nuffin
Re: So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in? [Re: mauserand9mm] #14987666 06/21/20
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Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Only in the minds of those wanting it to be there.


Much like the narrative of Paul's death.

Christians tell us he died as a martyr,
but scripture does not detail the death
of Paul, people merely speculate that
he became victim of emperor Neros
persecution of christians after the fire
of Rome, they further speculate his
manner of death was by beheading.

They assume beheading because they assume
Paul was a Roman citizen, and it was extremely
rare for such to be crucified.

Paul was born in Tarsus 5 AD, a "free city"
under Roman imperial rule... But simply being
born in a free city did not automatically make
Paul a Roman citizen..Such non-Roman cities
were permitted A certain level of autonmous/self-
governing powers, thus deemed free.

When Paul says he was "born free", it could
mean he was born in a free city durastiction.

Under the Roman system, there was a range of
categories that sat between a full Roman citizen
will full Roman rights and the mere slave with none.
and one's rights and privileges varied accordingly.
Same goes for urban settlement areas,.. there were
Roman colony cities established and settled by
Rome with Roman citizens with everything Roman.
Then you had places granted 'Latin Rights' ~ius latii ~
which allowed limited Roman rights and privileges.

Even then, Latin Rights might only be granted to the
officials of the town/city, or to all the occupants, or
even to a whole population... It was all up to the
personal discretion of the Emperor... Typically
it was granted like a gift from the emperor.

###########

Paul was put to trial by the Jews in Jerusalem,
and there was a lynch mob that wanted to kill him.
Some claim the Romans thus took custody of Paul,
because he was a Roman citizen.. but if he wasn't an
actual Roman citizen, the Romans would have grabbed
him to prevent the Lynch mob killing him, since
[ like in the case of Jesus], the Jews had no authority
to implement capitol punishment to anyone, either
through their Rabbi council or by lynch mob.

The Roman commander who took custody of Paul,
heard he was a Roman citizen, (how he could be sure
I dont know),.. but logic says that If he allowed a mob
of angry Jews to kill someone who turns out to be a
Roman citizen, it wouldn't work wonders for his
military career... so the commander protected
his own ass by giving Paul benefit of the doubt.

... passing it to the hands of Antonius Felix,
Roman Procurator.


-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Re: So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in? [Re: jaguartx] #14987719 06/21/20
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Paul was an educated nut case who managed a huge con job. Jesus explicitly warned about him. A majority of Christianity ended up hijacked and taken away from Jesus. You can follow Jesus or you can follow Paul but you can't do both.


"You win no crown of laurel for outrunning a jackass" - Martialis
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Re: So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in? [Re: RayF] #14987771 06/21/20
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Originally Posted by RayF
Originally Posted by DBT
So the question: where is divine revelation to be found in all this?

I thought the question was: Where is the missing link?


There are more than enough transitional fossils to prove evolution.

For example:

''Both fish and tetrapods are types of vertebrates. Fish were the first vertebrates to appear in the fossil record, more than 500 million years ago. Because tetrapods appeared in the fossil record later, about 365 million years ago, scientists have hypothesized that tetrapods evolved from fish. This hypothesis is supported by transitional forms, which have features of both fish and tetrapods, that appeared in the fossil record between 390 million and 360 million years ago.''

IC-B

Re: So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in? [Re: jaguartx] #14987782 06/21/20
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And orangutangs have features of monkeys and men. Viola.
"Scientists have hypothesized...."


Ecc 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.

DONT BE GETTING ANY CORONA ON YA

"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".

I Dindo Nuffin
Re: So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in? [Re: jaguartx] #14987827 06/21/20
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Features in common indicates a relationship.

Re: So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in? [Re: jaguartx] #14987843 06/21/20
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Here Jag, let's ask it this way.

How many times did God come to this planet and seed it with life?

Because we can easily see the various dominant life forms in the era before each of five extinction level events. Each era with totally different life forms than the era before or after. The remains are there for any to see in the various layers of sediment.

The most recent and best understood extinction event being the Chicxulub meteor strike 66 million years ago. We can see the crater. We can see the debris field scattered from the 12 mile deep and 93 mile diameter crater.
We can see the reptile fossils (dinosaurs) below that debris field. (But absolutely no great dinosaurs above the debris field.) We can see the succeeding mammalian fossils beginning above that debris field. We can see the nature and the size of those mammals change through the millennia in the various layers of sediment. We find early felines, and canines, and ursus, and equus, and bovines, and hominids. etc, etc scattered through the layers over 66 million years until we reach modern day and modern animals.

So, did God come to Earth and seed the Earth with the reptiles at the beginning of their time. And did God then revisit the Earth 66 million years ago and seed it with mammals? And where was Man, during the first 60 million years of "the age of mammals"?


My ideal as a conservative:

That each person may reap as he/she has sown.
Re: So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in? [Re: DBT] #14987845 06/21/20
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Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by RayF
“I have always thought it curious that, while most scientists claim to eschew religion, it actually dominates their thoughts more than it does the clergy.”

Fred Hoyle

Some believe while others question.

And some question to gain understanding leading to belief.

BTW, what's wrong with Greek philosophy? Awful ideas such as Logic and belief in being as an individual.


The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh

Which explains a lot.
Re: So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in? [Re: nighthawk] #14987880 06/22/20
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Originally Posted by nighthawk
Originally Posted by DBT
Originally Posted by RayF
“I have always thought it curious that, while most scientists claim to eschew religion, it actually dominates their thoughts more than it does the clergy.”

Fred Hoyle

Some believe while others question.

And some question to gain understanding leading to belief.

BTW, what's wrong with Greek philosophy? Awful ideas such as Logic and belief in being as an individual.


I didn't say that there was anything wrong with Greek philosophy.

I said that Paul was inspired, not by God but by Greek philosophy, inspired to the point where he was presenting the work of Greek Philosophers as his own, no citations given.

If Paul was inspired by God, why did he need to do that?

Re: So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in? [Re: jaguartx] #14987882 06/22/20
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Ok. Reding some of the posts "Greek philosophy" popped out as a sort of pejorative. I don't know about the rest of it.


The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh

Which explains a lot.
Re: So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in? [Re: DBT] #14987887 06/22/20
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Originally Posted by DBT
When it comes to evolution, Kent Hovind has zero credibility. Evolution is an established fact....any contraversy or need to modify is related to the mechanisms of evolution, not the fact of it.

Pleas define evolution and offer specific proof that it is, indeed, fact?

Last edited by MickeyD; 06/22/20.

~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Re: So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in? [Re: Hastings] #14987891 06/22/20
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Originally Posted by Hastings
Paul was an educated nut case who managed a huge con job. Jesus explicitly warned about him. A majority of Christianity ended up hijacked and taken away from Jesus.

.....


Life wasn't easy in those times, Paul was a tent
maker by trade, if you wanted to move up in the world,
you had to make your own luck... 😂


-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Re: So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in? [Re: MickeyD] #14987892 06/22/20
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Originally Posted by MickeyD
Originally Posted by DBT
When it comes to evolution, Kent Hovind has zero credibility. Evolution is an established fact....any contraversy or need to modify is related to the mechanisms of evolution, not the fact of it.

Care to offer some proof of evolution?


It's been posted numerous times and typically rejected out of hand because it is inconvenient for a belief in special creation. Why would it be different this time?

The information is readily available.

Here as one example.

Re: So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in? [Re: MickeyD] #14987893 06/22/20
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Originally Posted by MickeyD
Originally Posted by DBT
When it comes to evolution, Kent Hovind has zero credibility. Evolution is an established fact....any contraversy or need to modify is related to the mechanisms of evolution, not the fact of it.

Pleas define evolution and offer specific proof that it is, indeed, fact?


Roll up the sleeves, there is work to be done:
Universal common decent.

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