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Don't know, do know I have a Turnbull 50-110 WCF built on a jap built Browning '86 action, with it and some RL-15 along with the 525gr Cast Performance bullets I built a safe load running them to 2150 fps over the chrono, rifle, action and Starline brass handled it all with ease, recoil on the other hand was horrendous with the crescent steel butt, I done that to check build and stock strength, testing completed.

I now run 700gr flat nosed grease groove bullets to 1240 fps with black powder, using the Smith ladder barrel sight and a sharpsguy copper penny front sight I can ring 400 yard steel at will, pretty cool to get to do that with a lever rifle! smile


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This never ends for me. Maybe I am just slow and don't understand. I keep hearing the 1886 and 71 are the strongest actions and best built etc. Yet the Big Bore .356 I have is easily rated for 50,000 psi. My .348 Mirkoru Win. is being turned into a .348 Ackley Improved. But, my understanding 42,000 CUP is max for it and its twin tapered locking lugs.

So if we just use a cartridges SAMMI rating to determine action strength, neither the 86 or 71 are tops in that field. Since I have no way to measure pressure, I can only rely on a chronograph and case life and extraction to roughly determine "pressure" forget primers unless they fall out, since even the experts don't agree on using them as a measuring stick for a loads pressure.

It is obvious that the "experts" can't agree on the "strongest" action, no wonder I am confused. LOL

I can't remember who it was, maybe Waters that stated the Mod. 71 action is really a 50,000 psi action. If Waters said that I would believe him. Any of you remember him stating that?

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I could never understand the one-upsmanship blabber about which action is stronger. They're both plenty strong for their intended purposes.

My heavily modified Browning 1895 scout has been pushing 41 caliber 350 grain bullets at 2300-2400 fps for over a half decade now.

The weak link so far: my shoulder and 6-48 screws on the scope rail. 8-40s are a must at this power level. 20 rounds max during target sessions. I have shot out to 400 yds. The strength of the action will never be an issue.

With the browning/win 95: plug a pressure trace on the barrel and do not exceed 53,000 psi with your hand-loads.

Find the powder that gives maximum velocity with the lowest pressure. For me, AA2230 does both very well in my 41 O&M wildcat off the 9.3x62 case.

If you want to exceed 53,000 psi: go buy a bolt action rifle.

Last edited by mainer_in_ak; 06/18/20.
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Originally Posted by mainer_in_ak


If you want to exceed 53,000 psi: go buy a bolt action rifle.



Or buy a Browning BLR

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Voting for your favorite action won’t give it strength. There is a reason the 1895 was able to handle higher pressures than the 1886. Rear lugs aren’t the defining factor for strength. If that was the criteria for strength the Remington 788 would fail, but it doesn’t.


Originally Posted by RJY66

I was thinking the other day how much I used to hate Bill Clinton. He was freaking George Washington compared to what they are now.
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Forgot to add:
The winchester/browning 95 is not an overly long action. Having no rear receiver bridge, it is shorter than a short action bolt rifle.

My 20 inch barreled browning 95 scout at 38.25" long, is shorter than my 20 " barreled savage 99 and BLR.

It is .25" longer than a 20" barreled model 94 winchester.

I dunno about this "long/weak" action bullsht. My experiences are counter to that.

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With modern steel for both of these actions, any long discussion is beating a dead mule. My Model 71s in 348 Ackley and 450 Alaskan are original pre-war rifles and they
will take on anything in North America or Canada. Its accuracy and intended game that count.
First bull elk was shot decades ago near Mt Evans with an original 1895 in .405 WCF.

Heck-its the rifles not comparing them that counts. Ben Lilly ran all over NM, Az -CO and old Mexico with a Winchester 1886 nickle steel barrel in 33 WCF. He killed more
grizzlies and mountain lions than any modern hunter or guide has in a lifetime. He hunted on foot with hounds and ran bears and cats into the ground.
It is known that along the Mogollon Rim, Lilly wore out a set of boots about every two months.This occurred in the early 1900s.

As Elmer Keith pointed out-its the man behind the rifle that counts. That and the guts to face down bears at spitting range with a 33 WCF in a 1886 Winchester.


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Originally Posted by 450Fuller
With modern steel for both of these actions, any long discussion is beating a dead mule. My Model 71s in 348 Ackley and 450 Alaskan are original pre-war rifles and they
will take on anything in North America or Canada. Its accuracy and intended game that count.
First bull elk was shot decades ago near Mt Evans with an original 1895 in .405 WCF.

Heck-its the rifles not comparing them that counts. Ben Lilly ran all over NM, Az -CO and old Mexico with a Winchester 1886 nickle steel barrel in 33 WCF. He killed more
grizzlies and mountain lions than any modern hunter or guide has in a lifetime. He hunted on foot with hounds and ran bears and cats into the ground.
It is known that along the Mogollon Rim, Lilly wore out a set of boots about every two months.This occurred in the early 1900s.

As Elmer Keith pointed out-its the man behind the rifle that counts. That and the guts to face down bears at spitting range with a 33 WCF in a 1886 Winchester.


450Fuller
Off subject but do you know the name of the 7mm cartridge that was made out of the 348 win?


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If it reached any popularity at all, it should be in PO Ackley's Volume 1 handbook on wildcats. Its not in the Barnes Book.
Frankly, anything smaller than .348 on the 348 WCF case is not particularly reliable or efficient, unless you inherited a basement full of 338 FP bullets.
That would work well if they were Hawks, Woodleighs and such. A re-barrel effort might be worth it. The 348 WCF case is made for lever actions and larger bullets.


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Every thing every one is saying makes sense and for the most part I agree with it. But, in this day and age, it is odd that we don't have better information as to action strength of the lever action rifles we like. Just because "Uncle Buck" has been doing it for years does not mean it is safe. One of my all time favorite lever guns is a Marlin 1895 in 45-70. Forever I have been running a heavy dose of H322 and 405 grain Kodiak bullets down it's tube. It is a octagon barreled version with a pistol grip I modified. I could care less if it is as strong as a Win. 1886 as it is plenty strong for my needs.

My Mirkoru Mod. 71 Win. in .348 is new to me and being made into a .348 Ackley Improved because I want to approach .35 Whelen ballistics with a 250 grain bullet. So yes, I do scratch my head as to why a supposed near perfect big bore lever gun is rated for less pressure then a Big Bore .356 Win. What makes it even more frustrating is a definitive answer on why that is. If it was a bolt gun the facts would be laid bare for all to see long ago.

I am like most of you, I use what I trust and push the envelope some times, so far so good. LOL

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1AK shooter:

With rear locking lever guns, it's excessive case stretch as to why I prefer to keep down pressures down around 53,000 psi. I don't care if it's a savage 99, a winchester/browning 95 or a big bore 94.

Case stretch is not only hard on the brass, it can lead to sticky extraction. Whereras, a modern bolt action has no issue at identical pressures.

AK_lanche and I experienced this with our 200 grain 308 bison-legal loads. He with a kimber montana, and I with my 99 in 308 win. His brass was perfect and extracted like butter, mine would stretch and exhibit sticky extraction due to the stretch.

As to the idiot who wanted a 60,000 psi 454 casull in a lever gun, good for him. I'd much rather have a light weight model 94 in 450 marlin at a far lower psi or a model 92 in 44 mag.

The 348 winchester, with its intense case taper, I don't think it'd bennefit from pressures beyond 53,000 psi either. Neither the wildcat off the 348 case. With all that case capacity, plenty of power to be had at lower pressures.

Last edited by mainer_in_ak; 06/21/20.
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I hear ya Mainer and this latest adventure of mine, a Mirkoru Mod. 71 Winchester Deluxe rifle I picked up to convert to a .348 Ack. Imp. is probably my last hurrah for a long time and it does not take long for the money to add up, LOL. I am going to treat this rifle as a 50,000 psi rifle and hope to get close to 2,500 fps mv with the ABW bonded bullet, Starline brass and H4350 powder and maybe Fed. 215 primers.

My Big Bore 94 in .356 and the 94 in .44 mag. and Dad's old Savage 99 in .300 Savage are not going to be hot loaded either.

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If you want to load a lever to the gills, get a Browning BLR.

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I don't want to load my lever or any guns to the gills. But, I do like knowing how much psi or cup my rifles actions are rated for. It helps me make intelligent decisions when loading ammo.

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1akshooter,
Pick up ah pressure trace. How I afforded mine: sold a gun i didnt use much. Instead of hypothetical thinking out loud and theoretical voodoo, it teaches yah a quantifiable pressure curve. I don't care if it's a bolt action or a lever gun: plenty of velocity can be had at lower to mid 50,000 psi. Rather than your typical "quickload-rangers", you'll be in the know.

Also, extraction of a fired brass from a dirty chamber is far easier from a 50k psi handload, than 60k psi hand load. Test media: 50-70 mph silt storm on the upper Tanana river.

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Excellent discussion here, thanks!

Personally I have found the winchester model 88 to be loaded to close to max loads. Hotter than a BLR or a savage 99. In .308.

My old 71 got sticky extractions had to stay mid book.

My marlin 1895 45/70 s seem impervious to the book.....I don't get it, they seem very strong.

I never tried to hot rod my win 1895 s.

My 356 ER did also well with top loads.

I will remember to not test my 94 356 AE for top loads.

BTW.....

The 30 U.S. or 30 Army is 30/40 krag

The 30 GOVT is the 3006 at least that is what I believe.

Last edited by Angus1895; 06/27/20.

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I have been running the same Alaska Bullet Works bullets with H322 for a long time. I like my Marlin 45-70 it is the one I would keep. I don't think I hot rod it. I think the bolt lines up very well with my shooting eye should things ever let go. Ouch!

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The straight cased cartridges have a much smaller distance for the bullet to travel to relieve pressure I read in the book about the 45/70


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Ihave 6 Model 71s including 450 Alaskan and 348 ACK Imp.The Browning versions with no tang lawyer safety is very strong. I would rate
the Browning 1886/71 about 5K stronger than the originals, and definitely stronger than the 1895, the new 1895s not that much stronger.
Rate the Browning 71 as stronger than a Marlin 1895.

Have owned 2 or 3 original 1895s in 405 WCF.

No rear locking lever action is going to protect you with a bad case or overloaded shell. Gas will blow by and you will visit the morgue or eye doc and lawyers office.Winchester
stopped the 30-=06 in the 1895 because people made mistakes with German 8mm ammo after WW l- Rather than pay law suit money, Winchester stopped chambering the 95 in 30-06-eventually.

You cannot push hot reloading practices in a lever action M-71 or 1895. Just re-chamber or buy a 340 Weatherby magnum and forget hot roddin a 71/1895.
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held off both the US and Mexican army. I like the San Carlos Rez. There are real American Apaches there in Arizona.

Last edited by 450Fuller; 06/29/20.

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Ruger #1 spells strength, but ir is not part of the original question. wink


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