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Hoping to do a coastal brown bear hunt in the next two years and need to get a rifle ready. What caliber should I be looking at to keep the guide happy? TIA
Tarquin
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That's an exciting prospect. Pick a firearm that you are very familiar with, cartridge choice is important but the right bullet PUT IN THE RIGHT PLACE IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT. It is a major step backwards in your plan if you pick out something to use that you can't handle well and hit well with. I'd pick a stainless bolt gun with a synthetic stock that fit me well , scoped with my Vari X lll 1.5 x5x with buis on the rifle. Chambered for the 300 win mag.or larger. Probably wouldn'dt even buy a new a new gun as I have enough suitable to choose from all ready.200 + gr NPT's loaded in newer brass. The idea of using handoads does not bother me.What would bother me is the idea of not being practiced enough to have 100% confidence in my outfit and self. No I have not shot any bears. MB
Last edited by Magnum_Bob; 06/29/20.
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
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One you shoot well and is large enough to still do the job. Ie don't show up with a .243 and say "but I shoot it well and can put the bullet right where I want to!" Guide likely wouldn't be thrilled.
Also don't show up with a .458 Lott and not be able to hit a thing.
For me I'd grab my .338 win mag. Or if I needed an excuse to buy something else I'd look towards the .375ruger. if the guide was all right with it I wouldn't hesitate to take a .30-06 with premium 200 or 220s.
I should also add I've only taken black bears, if that actually matters.
-Jake
Last edited by Bocajnala; 06/29/20.
Small Game, Deer, Turkey, Bear, Elk....It's what's for dinner.
If you know how many guns you own... you don't own enough.
In God We Trust.
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As far as caliber goes, I wouldn’t go under .30 cal. , but as far as cartridges, a 338 mag. or 375 Ruger might be my picks.
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What adequate rifles do you currently own, and are you looking for an excuse to buy something bigger/better/ newer. etc.....
I've known LOTS of guys buy a gun "for Africa" - which is an excuse to buy a new gun - and any excuse is a good excuse to purchase...
GUIDED Brown Bear, as your Guide, Probably .30/06 minimum,
As others mentioned, something you can shoot right the first time.
And these zombies line up and eat from the media’s trough
Cowards CANNOT be free. Nor should they be.
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My ss ruger 9.3x62 with 286 nps would get the nod were it my hunt.
The way life should be.
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That's an exciting prospect. Pick a firearm that you are very familiar with, cartridge choice is important but the right bullet PUT IN THE RIGHT PLACE IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT. It is a major step backwards in your plan if you pick out something to use that you can't handle well and hit well with. I'd pick a stainless bolt gun with a synthetic stock that fit me well , scoped with my Vari X lll 1.5 x5x with buis on the rifle. Chambered for the 300 win mag.or larger. Probably wouldn'dt even buy a new a new gun as I have enough suitable to choose from all ready.200 + gr NPT's loaded in newer brass. The idea of using handoads does not bother me.What would bother me is the idea of not being practiced enough to have 100% confidence in my outfit and self. No I have not shot any bears. MB IMO this sums it very nicely, but starting cartridge would be a 30-06 and 180gr bullets. As a side note, when I was in AK this spring black bear hunting. I asked the outfitter, who also does SE Alaska brown bear hunts. What cartridge would you pick for brown bear? As long as shooting accuracy was equal and not a factor. "Probably a 375" But he also stated that shot placement is primary importance. I do not plan on ever hunting Browns, but if I did, I would take a 338-06 or 375 in that order.
Arcus Venator
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I bet it's safe to say the 30-06 has been used successfully to kill more brown bears in Alaska (and probably Canada too) then most of the others combined.
If I were to use one I'd load with 220 grain bullets and preferable Nosler Partitions.
So because the OP asked what is minimum I would say the 30-06 or ballistic combination in the same range. 7.62X54R, 7.5 Swiss, 8X57 and a handful of others too.
I like my big rifles and I shoot them very well, so I would take one of my more powerful calibers, but if I was to find myself in Alaska again and had one of my 30-06s, (or my 8X57) I would not feel under armed if I got to choose my own ammo.
Not at all.
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Campfire Ranger
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I've only been a couple times so take my limited experience with a grain of salt. When inquiring on caliber/chambering, the outfitter asked what I had in the stable already as he preferred comfort/familiarity with something over a larger chambering just for the occasion. At the time, I had 30.06, 300wsm, 338 Win and 35 Whelen - "hey, any of those are perfect but bring the Whelen – I haven't had a hunter shoot a bear with that chambering yet".
His take is way too many guys show up with new rifles and are relatively over-gunned and under-experienced with it/them.
And Phil Shoemaker has reinforced this same thing here for an eternity.
One other note - the gentleman I hunted with is a well-known sheep hunter and his clients have taken several good bears on sheep hunts with .270's - and with zero drama. That's not to suggest it's ideal, just that folks that haven't done it before think it has to be a howitzer to be effective. I'd definitely begin with .30 cal as the starting flavor.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I'm an expert on this subject. The 7th or 10th time while moose hunting that I've come thru a thick screen of brush wilth .30-06 in hand to find a steaming gallon of bear scat at my feet, I up calibered to a .338WM. It worked, too. 50 plus years in Alaska and i've yet to shoot (or even want to) a brown bear. I skeert them, I did. And the reverse a few times....  . I do not recommend using a pair of binoculars at 3 yards tho. Lacks penetration. Focusing adjustments are now a bit stiffer too. Maybe if I'd used 15 X 60 instead of 10 x 40? Good luck on your hunt.
Last edited by las; 06/29/20.
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
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Standard medium bores and 220-300 grain bullets are a great choice. They come in lightweight 4-5 down guns for the steep terrain. Jesse Occumpaugh can turn any deer rifle into a nice medium bore for about $275 if you dont like the factory offerings: http://www.35caliber.com/8.html338 federal, 338-06, 35 whelen, 358 winchester, 9.3x57 mauser, 9.3x62 mauser. Recovery from recoil and shot number two or three come oughtta these guns in a hurry, if you'll even need a second one......
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After over 40 years of doing this, I will say the quickest kills I have witnessed over the year were from propel shooting rifles they were comfortable and competent with, and a 270 or 7 mag, . 308 or a 30-06 loaded with premium bullets is as deadly as any hunter needs. If you have something larger you like take it, but only if you are comfortable with it.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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After over 40 years of doing this, I will say the quickest kills I have witnessed over the year were from propel shooting rifles they were comfortable and competent with, and a 270 or 7 mag, . 308 or a 30-06 loaded with premium bullets is as deadly as any hunter needs. If you have something larger you like take it, but only if you are comfortable with it.
What do you think about about the 358winchester for brown bear or for a bear stopper if you bump into one while moose hunting? I have a 338-06 as well.
"When guns are outlawed,only the outlaws will have guns".
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Hal Waugh the first Master Guide in AK had a beautiful mannlicher .358 Win. that he shot some bears with. His mainstay was a 375 Weatherby which he went through three different stocks with before adding a second recoil lug.
My choice would be the 375 H&H but if I was buying it would be the 9.3x64 for more magazine capacity and lower recoil/lighter rifle. The 35 Whelen would be good for the same reasons, this would include the 338-06 with good bullets too.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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Hal Waugh the first Master Guide in AK had a beautiful mannlicher .358 Win. that he shot some bears with. His mainstay was a 375 Weatherby which he went through three different stocks with before adding a second recoil lug.
My choice would be the 375 H&H but if I was buying it would be the 9.3x64 for more magazine capacity and lower recoil/lighter rifle. The 35 Whelen would be good for the same reasons, this would include the 338-06 with good bullets too. I am in the process of duplicating Hal Waugh's 375 Weatherby M70 "Big Nan" for the APHA banquet this coming Dec. I think Hal claimed he went through 6 stocks, and don't know who did his stockwork but this 1948 version I am stocking does have an additional recoil lug and will be glassbedded as who ever get ps it will be able to use it. And Hal did like the little 358 Win, and one of my guides brought his over one season and carried it. It certainly is a valid choice.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Campfire Oracle
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These type threads are classic.
Pay most attention to the advice of those from down in America who have never seen a brown bear, but know what to shoot.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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Campfire Oracle
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Hoping to do a coastal brown bear hunt in the next two years and need to get a rifle ready. What caliber should I be looking at to keep the guide happy? TIA But seriously, what do you currently own that fits the reco from Phil?
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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The APHA has been wanting to do a Big Nan repo for years and couple years agi I picked up a nice 1948 vintage M70 , with a Lyman 48 peep, that someone had already had rechamnered to 375 Weatherby.
It took me awhile to locate a similar piece of wood and someone with the old Fajen stock pattern to turn it.
But I have it fitted and working on the finish before sending it off for checkering.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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I can tell you what I use, as I have been baiting in SC AK for last 4-5 years. Granted they are not coastal brownies, but there is a salmon stream nearby and we are usually covered up in brownies. I switched to a .338 WM this year from my previous years of hunting mostly with a .300WM. If I could have found a good .375 Ruger at the time, I would have gotten it. My son up until this year has carried a .308 Win, and this year he started carrying my .300WM. I am not targeting brown bear where we bait at, but they are there. If there was only black bear in the area, I'd carry my .30-06, or even my bow more often. For someone coming up here for a hunt, I'd take Phil's suggestions and run with it. To be honest, my wife probably wishes I would have taken his recommendation on this topic and saved some money on buying rifles. I've hunted with people that have carried everything from a .270 Win, to a .416 Rem Mag. I even know a guy that took over one of my bait stands, that carried a .338 Federal his first season.
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OP
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I'm going with .338 Norma Mag and a Barnes bullet
Tarquin
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35 whelen, 225 partitions
Fück Joe byron
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Mike Odin wants me to bring a .375 H&H and 300 grain Barnes triple-shock. Another guide whose web site I visited says .338 Win. Mag. minimum.
Tarquin
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Nah, those guys don't know. You need something 20mm or bigger to kill one of those BIG bears. Turret mounted.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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Campfire Oracle
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I'm going with .338 Norma Mag and a Barnes bullet Just a guess: That’ll work.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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Just show up with a 6.5 Creedmoor and your guide will be happy
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Nah, those guys don't know. You need something 20mm or bigger to kill one of those BIG bears. Turret mounted. Do you need that belt fed or is a single shot OK?
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Campfire Outfitter
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Nah, those guys don't know. You need something 20mm or bigger to kill one of those BIG bears. Turret mounted. Do you need that belt fed or is a single shot OK? Depends on who your gun bearers are.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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Whatever rifle you choose, don't just know how to shoot it well, also know or learn how to manipulate it properly. For instance, carry it in a manner that you can get it into action quickly and be able to reload fast. Have ammo accessible regardless of what layers you happen to be wearing . Also be sure to run the thing properly, as in keep the stock mated to your face and shoulder while you run the bolt. Properly done you kill him with the first shot and prevent tracking with the follow-ups.
Last edited by pabucktail; 06/29/20.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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have taken 3 bears in Alaska using my Weatherby 300 mag using a 220 grain rpbt placed the bullet right down they went
Retarded,Rich,Famous
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Just show up with a 6.5 Creedmoor and your guide will be happy Loaded with 147 ELD-M and a Hubble scope and you're golden . . .
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The legendary "Big Nan" and Julie Waugh's .358 Winchester, two famous Alaskan rifles. Down the street from me was a fine old gentlemen named David Thorton and he owned the Brown Bear Gun Shop and Museum. Sadly he passed years ago and his interesting place sits closed.
I used to stop in there frequently to chat and one day he said. " you need to see this". He pulled "Big Nan" out of his display case and he even had the seal skin scabbard with it. He then proceeded to show me the Mod. 70 in .358 Winchester. They were both good sound rifles, made famous by a famous Alaskan guide. It is no secret I am a Mod. 70 guy and David knew this. I did not ask David how he came to acquire them and if me old memory is correct they were in a Fairbanks museum for years. I do know I liked holding a piece of history and wonder where they ended up.
I could never understand why Hal's .375 Weatherby split stocks like it did. Surely gunsmiths have been successfully bedding wooden stocks to them since their inception. One of life's mysteries?
I seem to remember Hal stating in one of his books that the .338 Winny did not impress him. At least I think it was him that stated that, unless it was one of the P&T guys. I find that odd as it has been my "go to" caliber for almost all of my mediocre 55 year Alaskan hunting career. Combined with 250 grain Nosler Partitions and later 250 and 225 grain Barnes X bullets I experienced good results.
I have two of the books written about Hal Waugh and I really enjoy the old stories, I have not looked at them in years, but will read them again this winter. I hope Phil posts a couple of pictures of the "Big Nan" he is making up.
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Just show up with a 6.5 Creedmoor and your guide will be happy Loaded with 147 ELD-M and a Hubble scope and you're golden . . .  
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Hal Waugh the first Master Guide in AK had a beautiful mannlicher .358 Win. that he shot some bears with. His mainstay was a 375 Weatherby which he went through three different stocks with before adding a second recoil lug.
My choice would be the 375 H&H but if I was buying it would be the 9.3x64 for more magazine capacity and lower recoil/lighter rifle. The 35 Whelen would be good for the same reasons, this would include the 338-06 with good bullets too. I am in the process of duplicating Hal Waugh's 375 Weatherby M70 "Big Nan" for the APHA banquet this coming Dec. I think Hal claimed he went through 6 stocks, and don't know who did his stockwork but this 1948 version I am stocking does have an additional recoil lug and will be glassbedded as who ever get ps it will be able to use it. And Hal did like the little 358 Win, and one of my guides brought his over one season and carried it. It certainly is a valid choice. I read an article you wrote for the APHA magazine on that rifle. Cool project.
Arcus Venator
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Tarquin
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That is because he sells them. And if that is what you like and you want to hunt with him then why not ?
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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I worked with a guy long ago that had a .300 Win. Mag. made up for a Dall sheep hunt. It had a heavy 27 inch barrel and a big scope and weighed right at 12 pounds. He said it shot wonderfully. I don 't believe he ever got a sheep, but he tried hard and logged many a steep and wet mile on his hunt. We all be different and my high weight retaining Barnes X monos have always delivered, as did the Nosler Partitions.
I always thought a M1 Garrand made into a .35 Whelan would make a superb big bear gun, ain't like they ain't reliable. Just a bit heavy for my old butt. Might as well leave it so it can accept a bayonet just in case.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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30-06 with proper bullets will get you into the CNS without issue if you do your part. Anything short of a solid CNS hit does not guarantee immediate incapacitation. Velocity and 300 magnums don't add much from a charge stopping perspective. Inside of 20 yards a lower velocity round, such as the 30-06 is less likely to disintegrate on the skull and will put plenty of energy on target, even if you are pushing a 240 gr Woodleigh at lower velocities.
Of course, if you can handle an Anzio 20mm like it is an M4, go for it. There is no such thing as overkill when something is trying to kill you.
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Campfire Ranger
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Seems pretty pragmatic and there's no denying his wealth of experience but he lost me at 4x14x50 scope. 
WWP53D
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Makes some good points about cartridges and bullet construction. Not matter the platform, be very familiar with your rifle and put the first shot where it needs to be.
I certainly do not need a 10-12# rifle to shoot accurately. Fully realizing he may be guiding less experienced hunters.
Arcus Venator
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Phil, you've not been shy about talking up the ole nine-three you've carried or the 358 one of your guides carried. That's purdy cool!
Though not a guide, as a subsistence hunter, the entirety of my hunting has been with both calibers.
I've not been able to distinguish the slightest difference in killing power between the two.
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Damn bears and their kevlar! ![[Linked Image from s3.amazonaws.com]](https://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/1373516095_p9azKRuQ1yK4MLodpnjQ_Bear_bulletproof_vest.jpg)
NRA Lifetime Endowment Member
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I worked with a guy long ago that had a .300 Win. Mag. made up for a Dall sheep hunt. It had a heavy 27 inch barrel and a big scope and weighed right at 12 pounds. He said it shot wonderfully. I don 't believe he ever got a sheep, but he tried hard and logged many a steep and wet mile on his hunt. We all be different and my high weight retaining Barnes X monos have always delivered, as did the Nosler Partitions.
I always thought a M1 Garrand made into a .35 Whelan would make a superb big bear gun, ain't like they ain't reliable. Just a bit heavy for my old butt. Might as well leave it so it can accept a bayonet just in case. My M98 with 27" bbl weighs in about 11 lbs. Maybe a couple ounces more- I'd have to put it on the digital bathroom scale again to refresh memory. 1" groups at 300 ain't bad, but I'm not taking it sheep hunting if I ever go again, but it worked fine off the snow machine in Kotzebue for caribou for several years. I did take it caribou hunting last year off the Steese- but that was only a mile and a half hike, and maybe 1600 feet elevation climb. Not going this year tho. My "new" Mod 70 XTR in 7X57 gets the call, and the Win 94, and the 725 with fixt extractor (used as a single shot last year on those 40-mile caribou). I'm a heathen, I guess. When Dave let me handle Big Nan, it was cool - but pretty much just another gun to me, history not-withstanding. Nice gun.
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
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Last time I used a Remington Custom Shop KS in 338 RUM, but that was for Mountain Grizzly, which can mean long range. When I go again, I'll take my Winchester Model 70 stainless synthetic in 375 H&H with its Docter 3-9x40 on it.
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So far my personal minimum is a 9x19
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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So far my personal minimum is a 9x19
I'm sure it's not your best recommendation.  But, in that situation, sure beat bear spray... I wonder how many could have pulled that off... DF
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So far my personal minimum is a 9x19
That's funny! At least you can say you have BTDT !!!!!
Arcus Venator
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So far my personal minimum is a 9x19
I'm sure it's not your best recommendation. But, in that situation, sure beat bear spray... I wonder how many could have pulled that off... DF Few, is my guess.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I missed the original story, Phil, but over time got the gist. How many of that 9mm magazine did you use? And to reference old Ron the Drunk Comedian - How many did you plan to use?
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
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I missed the original story, Phil, but over time got the gist. How many of that 9mm magazine did you use? And to reference old Ron the Drunk Comedian - How many did you plan to use? I still had one round left in the 8 round magazine. But it's not an event I recommend ! But relying on any handgun for bear protection is like wearing a life preserver in a boat or keeping a fire extinguisher in the home. You hope you never need them and they are a last ditch effort. As soon as I could hear the bear huffing and charging through the brush I was wishing for my 458.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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I think DG guides like you, Phil, have experience based upon multiple encounters which leaves most of us shaking our heads. I know it does me. I want to ask what may be a couple of esoteric questions: first, when a large, apex predator comes a'calllin' at a high rate of speed do you recall if your vision tunnels and time has that slowing down experience? Second, I have never been charged by anything except a buck raccoon who got his just desserts while you have reported being charged on multiple occasions by bears. In the aftermath, I wonder if there is a momentary, crystalline recognition of the fragility of one's own life and how sweet and pure life is? In other words, most of us can figure out intellectually that being alive beats the alternative but I suspect a peak experience (albeit one you did not go looking for) like a determined bear charge must make it very clear in those moments afterward?
The way life should be.
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Campfire Ranger
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So far my personal minimum is a 9x19
LOLOLOLOL That was mother nature’s version of the cardio stress test: “Good news Mr. Shoemaker - your heart is quite strong”
WWP53D
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These type threads are classic.
Pay most attention to the advice of those from down in America who have never seen a brown bear, but know what to shoot.
Same thing happens with Slope jobs around here.
All the guys want to be me, and all the bitches want to do me.
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I think DG guides like you, Phil, have experience based upon multiple encounters which leaves most of us shaking our heads. I know it does me. I want to ask what may be a couple of esoteric questions: first, when a large, apex predator comes a'calllin' at a high rate of speed do you recall if your vision tunnels and time has that slowing down experience? Second, I have never been charged by anything except a buck raccoon who got his just desserts while you have reported being charged on multiple occasions by bears. In the aftermath, I wonder if there is a momentary, crystalline recognition of the fragility of one's own life and how sweet and pure life is? In other words, most of us can figure out intellectually that being alive beats the alternative but I suspect a peak experience (albeit one you did not go looking for) like a determined bear charge must make it very clear in those moments afterward? Events like that do tend to focus your attention and I still find it amazing how quickly thoughts pass through your mind. I guess that helps sort out your triage. I vividly remember thinking to keep track of the clients and not shoot if there was a chance of a pass through.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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The way life should be.
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These type threads are classic.
Pay most attention to the advice of those from down in America who have never seen a brown bear, but know what to shoot.
Same thing happens with Slope jobs around here. From two posters that have added absolutely NOTHING to the conversation.
Arcus Venator
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My Grandfather killed a number of them in the 30s and 40s and swore by the 30-06 with 180s. I know a gent in Canada that like the 303 with 180s iirc and he had bagged several as well.
Personally? I’d be confident and comfortable with a 7-08 and 160s as a good solid minimum. My personal ideal choice would be my 308 with 180s @2700fps. I’d have zero hesitation with that combo for anything in N America
You don’t need a cannon...you need penetration and shot placement as with any game animal. You will not impress a 1000lb bear with any amount of ft/lbs. I base this off of the opinions of the masters...like Phil above and my experience on heavy game though no brown bears
Last edited by Quak; 07/02/20.
GOD Bless America
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These type threads are classic.
Pay most attention to the advice of those from down in America who have never seen a brown bear, but know what to shoot.
Same thing happens with Slope jobs around here. From two posters that have added absolutely NOTHING to the conversation. You don't read very well.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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Campfire Kahuna
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These type threads are classic.
Pay most attention to the advice of those from down in America who have never seen a brown bear, but know what to shoot.
Same thing happens with Slope jobs around here. From two posters that have added absolutely NOTHING to the conversation. You don't read very well. A good reader would notice his own virtue signaling.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Thought it that or the pesky reading comprehension. 😉
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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Thought it that or the pesky reading comprehension. 😉 I comprehend the fact just fine, that you have added nothing to this thread.
Arcus Venator
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Campfire Kahuna
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Thought it that or the pesky reading comprehension. 😉 I comprehend the fact just fine, that you have added nothing to this thread. So you reporting an anonymous outfitter's opinion is worthy, while adding your own silly no-experience opinion, yet a resident's opinion is not. Even though the resident has hunted them and intends to in the future? I believe that is special. And Clydesdale is just an idiot...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Thought it that or the pesky reading comprehension. 😉 I comprehend the fact just fine, that you have added nothing to this thread. That don’t mean what you think it means.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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Events like that do tend to focus your attention and I still find it amazing how quickly thoughts pass through your mind. I guess that helps sort out your triage. I vividly remember thinking to keep track of the clients and not shoot if there was a chance of a pass through.
Pass throughs on a brown bear from a 9x19 LOL. Not something I hope I ever have to worry about. Way to stay focused and keep your clients safe.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Events like that do tend to focus your attention and I still find it amazing how quickly thoughts pass through your mind. I guess that helps sort out your triage. I vividly remember thinking to keep track of the clients and not shoot if there was a chance of a pass through.
Pass throughs on a brown bear from a 9x19 LOL. . You didn't inquire what his 9 mm was stoked with... DF
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When I go to AK after the BIG bears, I'll pack what the pros use: a subcompact 9mm. Should git 'er done.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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Events like that do tend to focus your attention and I still find it amazing how quickly thoughts pass through your mind. I guess that helps sort out your triage. I vividly remember thinking to keep track of the clients and not shoot if there was a chance of a pass through.
Pass throughs on a brown bear from a 9x19 LOL. . You didn't inquire what his 9 mm was stoked with... DF IIRC, Phil has stated he used hardcast lead bullets.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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While it can be done with a 9mm, my rifle of choice when guiding is a 458 Win .
So you can read between the lines !
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Thought it that or the pesky reading comprehension. 😉 I comprehend the fact just fine, thpeople that have an opinionat you have added nothing to this thread. That don’t mean what you think it means. It means exactly what I think it means. You passively aggressively insulting people, because they have an opinion and are not from Alaska. Simply pointing it out. .
Arcus Venator
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Well put CRS and we've heard the same before. M B
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
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Thought it that or the pesky reading comprehension. 😉 I comprehend the fact just fine, thpeople that have an opinionat you have added nothing to this thread. That don’t mean what you think it means. It means exactly what I think it means. You passively aggressively insulting people, because they have an opinion and are not from Alaska. Simply pointing it out. . Nothing passive/aggressive about it. It was, and still is a fact. You don't have to agree, but that doesn't make it wrong. Would you take Africa advice from someone that's never been and can't tell a kudu from an impala?
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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458 So cool you are doing the big Nan re-creation. Please post photos. I was not aware he went through six stocks, his book mentioned three. I would love to see photos of the original, the repro and the 358. I keep thinking about reaming my 375 to the Weatherby round but why mess with perfection?
In my previous post I meant the 9.3x62 I would skip the 9.3x64 and go straight to the 375 H&H.
Not from Alaska but spent two seasons guiding fly fisherman and some hunting. Came close to needing to shoot a bear about six times. When they are close enough to smell and are popping their jaws it's time to train whatever you've got on whatever is the most vital shot possible. Never had to shoot one but came close to needing new skivy's a couple of times.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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Well I have had a close encounter with two grizzlies in my life, my 375 H&H did not look too big for hunting anymore, it seemed a tad big for the moose I was hunting, but not so much when facing the big bears.
Luckily we both went our separate ways.
"The 375HH is the greatest level of power you can get for the investment in recoil." (JJHack)
79s and losttrail, biggest waste of air.
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.. What caliber should I be looking at to keep the guide happy? The net seems like a great place to discover what will keep your chosen guide happy.. 😂
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Thought it that or the pesky reading comprehension. 😉 I comprehend the fact just fine, thpeople that have an opinionat you have added nothing to this thread. That don’t mean what you think it means. It means exactly what I think it means. You passively aggressively insulting people, because they have an opinion and are not from Alaska. Simply pointing it out. . "Simply pointing it out" is extremely funny in light of : Originally Posted by ironbender Thought it that or the pesky reading comprehension. 😉 I comprehend the fact just fine, that you have added nothing to this thread. grin You are accusing him of adding nothing when you are doing nothing but sucking up and virtue signaling with nothing. Like nothing... nada, zip, zero... There is nothing P-A about Alaskans. If you are being an idiot, plan on being called on it. IB is probably a couple orders of magnitude more gentle in that regard than most. He simply pointed out the numbers of people making inane (I am being kind including yours in the group) comments when someone of Phil's experience makes a comment and they have to climb aboard as if it were their place to expound. I have guided for brown bears, shot brown bears, helped friends find and kill brown bears and generally have a lot of experience around them. When Phil talks, I shut up and listen. Seeing you virtue signalling as if you had a clue is not really funny. It is sad. But then you have to go into into dry hump mode and call out IB for a very innocuous comment... it is all about a bunch of barnyard chickens fighting over the biggest grub sneezed up by the lead billy goat. And IB is just watching...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Thought it that or the pesky reading comprehension. 😉 I comprehend the fact just fine, thpeople that have an opinionat you have added nothing to this thread. That don’t mean what you think it means. It means exactly what I think it means. You passively aggressively insulting people, because they have an opinion and are not from Alaska. Simply pointing it out. . Nothing passive/aggressive about it. It was, and still is a fact. You don't have to agree, but that doesn't make it wrong. Would you take Africa advice from someone that's never been and can't tell a kudu from an impala? More interested in waterbuck... how can you tell them?
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Well put CRS and we've heard the same before. M B Really?
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Boys, boys, boys...
Did I ever tell you, possibly several times, about the time I bounced binoculars off a griz at 3 yards... ?
Hell, that ought to cap Phil's yarn with his 9mm. At least I was "green" - not to mention unarmed ( read stupid) - the rifle being yards away in the boat, and I didn't kill the poor cuddly thing. Or she, me.
I recently disposed of the second pair of bottom-blown-out shorts.
I wasn't even wearing one of them at the time.
Sorry, I can't remember if they were Hanes or Fruit of the Loom....
Placement isn't everything, just most of it.
Last edited by las; 07/03/20.
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
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.. What caliber should I be looking at to keep the guide happy? The net seems like a great place to discover what will keep your chosen guide happy.. 😂 +++++. exactly !!!
And these zombies line up and eat from the media’s trough
Cowards CANNOT be free. Nor should they be.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Never hunted grizzly or Alaska, have only killed one bear and that was a black bear shot in his left eye at less than 20 yards while bow hunting elk, were I to go after big bears and recoil was a concern, I'd load one of my '06's like a baby 375 H&H mag, that load would be an easy to shoot 220gr Partition at 2500 fps, I would be surprised if any bear could contain that load.
Trump Won!
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You did notice that I have not posted anything about "cartridges" after Phil posted.  Now that the OP has picked a rifle, my advice would be to shoot it a bunch and become very comfortable/familiar with it. BTW, I have been to Africa and Alaska both more than once.
Last edited by CRS; 07/03/20.
Arcus Venator
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I don't know about coastal grizzlies but I live with the mountain type. I get these bears around the farm and they track up to the house if we leave dog food out at night. I keep a Browning BLR/ .450 fairly handy as a portable noise maker , yeah it bucks pretty hard...oh well. They like elk calves, chickens and dog food ...in that order....and love rancid carcasses of all flavors.
The .450 is my choice up close, 350 grain Barnes original.
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There is no substitute for being competent and comfortable with whatever rifle, or handgun or binoculars you choose to defend yourself with.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Phil have you shot the 375 Weatherby yet.? MB
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
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Phil have you shot the 375 Weatherby yet.? MB Not this one
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Here is my bear rifle for what its worth ,375 H&H pre 64 action 22" bbl. My peep sight never fogged up once Huntable Brown bears are a 15 minute boat ride away for me here. Shooting 260gr Partitions. with 67gr of 4064, Thats all i can handle accurately and repeatedly out of the rifle, I am 6' 4" 245lbs. If your eyes close before the firing pin hits the primer go to a smaller caliber. Recoil struggle is real ' ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/DmbkDxVR/20200703-202619.jpg)
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Campfire Kahuna
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Here is my bear rifle for what its worth ,375 H&H pre 64 action 22" bbl. My peep sight never fogged up once Huntable Brown bears are a 15 minute boat ride away for me here. Shooting 260gr Partitions. with 67gr of 4064, Thats all i can handle accurately and repeatedly out of the rifle, I am 6' 4" 245lbs. If your eyes close before the firing pin hits the primer go to a smaller caliber. Recoil struggle is real ' Physics is a bitch!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Yes, a person has to know their recoil limit.
The 375 I own is a joy to shoot. Have shot over a 100 rounds in practice muItiple times at the range. Took 300gr TSX's at 2500 fps to Africa as a back up to my 404 J for buffalo. Even though I felt a 270gr would be just fine, and had a great shooting load at 2800fps. PH recommended 300gr. Pretty significant trip in both time and money. Why would I not listen to him? Did not matter to me one bit.
He did prefer an over 40 caliber for buffalo though.
If I would ever take my 375 on a big bear hunt, I would just switch to a NAB. But I would prefer to take my 338-06, as I stated previously.
Phil, in your experience. Would you say bears are physically softer, and it is better to use bonded or partition style bullets over the tougher monometal bullets? Similar to buffalo vs cats in Africa. I know this is nitpicking, as either style of bullet in the right place will work
Last edited by CRS; 07/04/20.
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I’ve used a 375HH and have no complaints with it. People can bicker all day long but in then end people have found a way to make most anything work, I chose the 375HH and have no plans to change.
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30-06, 180-200 grain
NW Black bears are not really all that big.
All of them do something better than the 30-06, but none of them do everything as well.
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A guided hunt is not that critical regarding caliber: bring whatever.
Step one: guide buzzes around natural feed troughs in bush plane(salmon stream choked with spawning salmon).
Step 2:
Guide drops down closest to area with most bear density
Step 3:
With almost no walking involved, guide puts tender footed city slicker on big scary bear.
Step 4:
City slicker shoots big scary bear (clean kill is optional)
Step 5
Guide mops up mess keeps mouth shut, many thousand of dollars involved.
Step 6
Take picture so that it makes big scary bear look even more bigger and scary.
Step 7
City slicker goes home, tells war story about big scary bear, if gun writer: writes three dozen worthless articles about how amazing all his gear is.
Step 8
Repeat.
What ah fkn joke-show. I could never do it.
Last edited by mainer_in_ak; 07/04/20.
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Mainer in Alaska
I wish you had a different attitude about hunting Alaska. I have read your stuff since you joined. I would love.to hunt with you. Maybe someday.
Molɔ̀ːn Labé
Grandpa:the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Dad:son you have 2 choices for supper eat or don't eat.
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A guided hunt is not that critical regarding caliber: bring whatever.
Step one: guide buzzes around natural feed troughs in bush plane(salmon stream choked with spawning salmon).
Step 2:
Guide drops down closest to area with most bear density
Step 3:
With almost no walking involved, guide puts tender footed city slicker on big scary bear.
Step 4:
City slicker shoots big scary bear (clean kill is optional)
Step 5
Guide mops up mess keeps mouth shut, many thousand of dollars involved.
Step 6
Take picture so that it makes big scary bear look even more bigger and scary.
Step 7
City slicker goes home, tells war story about big scary bear, if gun writer: writes three dozen worthless articles about how amazing all his gear is.
Step 8
Repeat.
What ah fkn joke-show. I could never do it. Me either ! How many like that have you actually been on ? Or witnessed ?
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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So far my personal minimum is a 9x19
Having read the "story", and knowing a bit about your background, I'd say that your "guest" were exceedingly lucky that you were able to manage the situation to achieve the best possible outcome !!! I expect time slowed down for you, at least a bit, as the event was happening. (Love your writing) Woody
"not too grumpy"
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A guided hunt is not that critical regarding caliber: bring whatever.
Step one: guide buzzes around natural feed troughs in bush plane(salmon stream choked with spawning salmon).
Step 2:
Guide drops down closest to area with most bear density
Step 3:
With almost no walking involved, guide puts tender footed city slicker on big scary bear.
Step 4:
City slicker shoots big scary bear (clean kill is optional)
Step 5
Guide mops up mess keeps mouth shut, many thousand of dollars involved.
Step 6
Take picture so that it makes big scary bear look even more bigger and scary.
Step 7
City slicker goes home, tells war story about big scary bear, if gun writer: writes three dozen worthless articles about how amazing all his gear is.
Step 8
Repeat.
What ah fkn joke-show. I could never do it. What do you mean, "There is no Santa Claus"...?!!!
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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So far my personal minimum is a 9x19
Having read the "story", and knowing a bit about your background, I'd say that your "guest" were exceedingly lucky that you were able to manage the situation to achieve the best possible outcome !!! I expect time slowed down for you, at least a bit, as the event was happening. (Love your writing) Woody In situations like that time does take on a different realm. Unfortunately so does your reaction time and fine motor skills. But you are right that there was a certain amount of luck involved. One of the primary ones being the two teenage daughters had decided to stay in camp with my daughter. The fact that both parents saw what was happening and simply grabbed each other and fell back without a sound was a blessing .
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Interesting comment that. Do you believe that bear would have killed you all had you not stopped it?
The way life should be.
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My ss ruger 9.3x62 with 286 nps would get the nod were it my hunt. Excellent choice and is what I would use. I've never shot anything heavier than a Speer 270 grain hot core in my 9.3 but I like your choice of 286 grain Partitions.
What goes up must come down, what goes around comes around, there's no free lunch. Trump's comin' back, get over it!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I don't have a .375 H&H but always liked it, and would own one if I had need. Carried a pre 64 M70 on FS Trail Crew many decades ago. Helluva porcupine gun at 2am on tent cabin chewing SOBs that then run up a tree. Sometimes 2 or 3 a night. The rain of quills is quite impressive. I'm 150 # and can handle the recoil. Less mass resistance than you big bastids. Go with the flow. But then, I never shot it off the bench... probably where a lot of shooters hone their flinch.
Last edited by las; 07/06/20.
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
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A guided hunt is not that critical regarding caliber: bring whatever.
Step one: guide buzzes around natural feed troughs in bush plane(salmon stream choked with spawning salmon).
Step 2:
Guide drops down closest to area with most bear density
Step 3:
With almost no walking involved, guide puts tender footed city slicker on big scary bear.
Step 4:
City slicker shoots big scary bear (clean kill is optional)
Step 5
Guide mops up mess keeps mouth shut, many thousand of dollars involved.
Step 6
Take picture so that it makes big scary bear look even more bigger and scary.
Step 7
City slicker goes home, tells war story about big scary bear, if gun writer: writes three dozen worthless articles about how amazing all his gear is.
Step 8
Repeat.
What ah fkn joke-show. I could never do it. Says the guy that takes "stunt shots" at moose....
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The rain of quills is quite impressive. That is hilarious!
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las you better not look up
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Campfire Kahuna
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If you put a blanket over your head does it turn into a quilt?
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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I'd like to hunt them with a .300 Win Mag
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[quote=mainer_in_ak]
Says the guy that takes "stunt shots" at moose....
Says the guy with "stunted growth". When I share a hunt story, take from it what you will. I guess we can all do that: Anyhow, next time you're spotting caribou from the Denali highway, don't forget to take the safety off on the ole 300 saum....... Least I knew where he was, rather than your stunts of frolicking around in the brush unsure where the hell your quarry was(after you took the shot). Lastly, if a puny little cartridge rocks yah that bad, where you loose track of your game, drop down in caliber. Like Elmer Keith once said: "I prefer to do my hunting before I do my shooting"
Last edited by mainer_in_ak; 07/06/20.
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Campfire Kahuna
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I'd like to hunt them with a .300 Win Mag I carried one for back-up for years... it works just fine.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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I'd like to hunt them with a .300 Win Mag I carried one for back-up for years... it works just fine. Good to know because I don't like the bigger stuff anymore.
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Last time I was goofing off with a recoil calculator I discovered my 9.3x62 and 286s loaded to modern pressures is right on par with the .300 win shooting 200s.
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minimum in my mind would be a 338win mag shooting a heavy for caliber Barnes TTSX or Nosler Partition. But if I was buying a new rifle for a coastal brown bear hunt it would be a 375 h&h mag. Sure a 30/06 or 30cal magnum will kill a bear, but if things go south, I want a round that will not only kill a bear, but stop it in the event of a charge. I often hear that you should bring a 270, 30/06, 300win mag, if thats what you shoot well, Im telling you you are going after an apex predator that weighs upwards of 1500 pounds, learn to shoot a rifle that is adeqaute for the job at hand. No, I have never hunted or seen a brown bear
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Campfire Kahuna
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Aceman2101,
Thanks for repeating every cliche about shooting brown bears (or any other big, dangerous game), along with listing your experience.
Would also like to know how you know brown bears weigh "upwards of 1500 pounds."
Also would like to see YOUR list of rifles that will "stop it in the event of a charge."
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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I have never felt uncomfortable toting my .300 H&H around in big bear country, and certainly would have felt just as comfortable with a .270 Win or the like, even if I was actually hunting them.
I think I've only seen 10 or so coastal brown bears (NOT interior grizzlies: I've been around plenty of those), including one on Afognak that was a bit too close for comfort as he wanted my buddy's elk carcass more than we did.
Their toughness when shot I have no idea about, but concerning a charge they're nowhere near as aggressive as the interior bears (at least when not wounded), in my somewhat limited experience with them. I'd take Phil's advice and disregard everyone else's, if I were the OP.
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You know before we had the internet and all it's unqualified experts we just had to listen to gun writers and make our own choice or trust our deer rifles and maybe some heavier bullets. Well damn I suppose half the well heeled here would have got recycled thru a bears ass*ole. What a relief we have the info highway as entertainment anyway. MB
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
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I've hunted in brown bear country with a 243 more than any other rifle. Just have to keep your wits about you.
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I've hunted in brown bear country with a 243 more than any other rifle. Just have to keep your wits about you. That's always your best defense! Would be nice if adhered to on these threads also.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Campfire Kahuna
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I've hunted in brown bear country with a 243 more than any other rifle. Just have to keep your wits about you. I have killed a lot of Kodiak deer with a Roberts and hunted with several guys using the 223.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Kahuna
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I've hunted in brown bear country with a 243 more than any other rifle. Just have to keep your wits about you. That's always your best defense! Would be nice if adhered to on these threads also. There you go again! Expecting too much!
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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I've hunted in brown bear country with a 243 more than any other rifle. Just have to keep your wits about you. That's always your best defense! Would be nice if adhered to on these threads also. You've been part of way more brown bear harvests than me! I only have one. I hit mine in the back of the head with a 7mag. Only bear I ever killed but it never went an inch. I deer hunt in the same area with a 243 and for some reason I feel safe. I walked up on a sleeping brown bear with my 243. I'm talking feet away. The wind in that area always blows a certain direction and it never knew I was there. I've been charged too, 20yds down to about 2 in a matter of a second. Had to wash those pants and I am not afraid to say it. Most of the time they run away
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I've shot brown bears with 12 gauge, .375 H&H, and 9.3x62. I cannot tell the difference between the .375 and the 9.3 on them. I never intend to use a 12 ga. again! I used foster slugs, which was an utter disaster. Thankfully there was another guy with me using a .375 who really solved the problem. I've seen them sorted out with 12 ga. Brennekes, which would be the only shotgun load I'd consider even half suitable, but even then a proper rifle is the better option based on my experiences and observations. I do most of my deer hunting with the 9.3 just because it works so well on both bears and deer.
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Little sensitive I see there Mainer....
Carry on
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Little sensitive I see there Mainer....
Carry on I'm just joshing yah, Josh.
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Campfire Oracle
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I've shot brown bears with 12 gauge, .375 H&H, and 9.3x62. I cannot tell the difference between the .375 and the 9.3 on them. I never intend to use a 12 ga. again! I used foster slugs, which was an utter disaster. Thankfully there was another guy with me using a .375 who really solved the problem. I've seen them sorted out with 12 ga. Brennekes, which would be the only shotgun load I'd consider even half suitable, but even then a proper rifle is the better option based on my experiences and observations. I do most of my deer hunting with the 9.3 just because it works so well on both bears and deer. FWIW, ol’ Klik on here posted some time back about a smallish brown bear he had to kill at their fish camp “summer cabin”. He had poor performance from brennekes with one or more deforming badly. IIRC, finally had to use a “non-bear” cartridge as a finisher.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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Iron,
I can't make sense of this brenneke slug stuff. On paper, they are the maximum. They are the ultimate 12 gauge fodder. I witnessed this:
Individual who only owned a 12 gauge pump, shoots massive bull moose square in the neck at about 35-40 yds away with brenneke black magic. Bull drops motionless, guy sets down shotgun. Bull jumps up and bolts like a sprint racer. 2 HOURS later, guy catches up to bedded down bull. Finished off with a handgun as bull slowly rises to continue his death march.
Iron, I have skiny Indian fingers. That slug hit four fingers-width from behind the ear. So about 3.5 inches lower than behind ear. Blood everywhere, slug left clean nickel sized exit hole.
Two things happened immediately: I lost faith in neck shots on large game.
I began to question the mighty brenneke.
I will say this: I don't understand what the heck happened there.
Was the spirit and willpower of the big bull so tough, that he fought for his life?
Was it more mechanical, in that the slug missed an artery or bone?
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Now that the experts have spoken about the appropriateness of each cartridge... My experience shooting a 8.5lb .375 H&H off the bench is that it is quite a bit nicer than many "smaller" rifles. I stepped "down" to that from the 338 RUM, as mine was both unwieldy (26" barrel), a punishment on the shoulder, and LOUD. But dang, did it shoot. The 20" barreled 375 is much more fun to shoot all around, but especially multiple shots off the bench and any shots from prone. I've done 100 round range sessions and they were not nearly as painful as the same thing with a lightweight 280AI. Even compared to a standard weight 300WIN, I don't think the recoil is nearly as sharp on the 375. I can't say how effective it is on coastal brown bears, but I can say that recoil for a standard weight 375 H&H with a good stock and recoil pad is nothing to be scared of.
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I've hunted in brown bear country with a 243 more than any other rifle. Just have to keep your wits about you. I have killed a lot of Kodiak deer with a Roberts and hunted with several guys using the 223. This makes sense to me. If you place your shot(s) where they need to go, you can shut down a big bear right there and then. If you don't, bigger isn't likely going to be any better.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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Campfire Oracle
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Iron,
I can't make sense of this brenneke slug stuff. On paper, they are the maximum. They are the ultimate 12 gauge fodder. I witnessed this:
Individual who only owned a 12 gauge pump, shoots massive bull moose square in the neck at about 35-40 yds away with brenneke black magic. Bull drops motionless, guy sets down shotgun. Bull jumps up and bolts like a sprint racer. 2 HOURS later, guy catches up to bedded down bull. Finished off with a handgun as bull slowly rises to continue his death march.
Iron, I have skiny Indian fingers. That slug hit four fingers-width from behind the ear. So about 3.5 inches lower than behind ear. Blood everywhere, slug left clean nickel sized exit hole.
Two things happened immediately: I lost faith in neck shots on large game.
I began to question the mighty brenneke.
I will say this: I don't understand what the heck happened there.
Was the spirit and willpower of the big bull so tough, that he fought for his life?
Was it more mechanical, in that the slug missed an artery or bone? The paper thing, is the thing. When I carried a 12 .ca, I loaded Brenneke slugs. Never have had to use them though. The on-paper can give a false sense of safety with brownies. Tbat waz my point of trying to relate Klik's experience. I've now am of the opinion that (almost) any rifle is better than a shotgun, (ir)regardless of the paper. Even if in a glossy-paged magazine! Curious what you found when cutting up that bull? No spine hit?
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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Big difference in interior brown bear and coastal. The interior bear may only go 5-600 lbs even for a big one. A coastal brownie may go 800 or so and a very exceptional Kodiak or ABC bear might go 800-1,000 lbs. Most bear are not weighed so part of of the discrepancy in reported weights.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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I see bears every year that weigh well over 1000 pounds and have killed some that I know weighed lose to 1500 pounds. My son has flown for the federal polar bear studies for the past 7-8 years and they have scales on the helicopter to actually weigh the bears. They also have weighed bears between 1400 & 1500 and my son claims the biggest bears we take are every bit as large.
We did kill one good sized boar in the fall that had been weighed by F&G that spring at the den . 982 pounds and after a spring and summer of eating they easily gain 300-400 pounds. And that one was nowhere near the largest
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Occasionally grizzly bears get into the 1000lb range even in the lower 48. Unusual but it does happen.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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While it can be done with a 9mm, my rifle of choice when guiding is a 458 Win .
So you can read between the lines ! Phil, What do your son and daughter carry when they guide for brown bears?
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Occasionally grizzly bears get into the 1000lb range even in the lower 48. Unusual but it does happen. Art Young and Saxton Pope supposedly tag teamed a 1000 pound grizzly in Wyoming in the 1920s. I doubt they had certified scales with them, so a guy will just have to make up their own mind as to how accurate that estimate was.
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There was a grizzly in Lincoln, MT that was the largest bear in Montana. It was killed on Highway 200 just outside Lincoln. It weighed 830 lbs. It was mounted and put in the Lincoln Post Office for a time. I don't know where it is now.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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While it can be done with a 9mm, my rifle of choice when guiding is a 458 Win .
So you can read between the lines ! Phil, What do your son and daughter carry when they guide for brown bears? Tia started out with a 338 Win, then fell in love with the 375 Ruger when it first cam out. Then when it jammed on her during a bear charge, due to the first edition of the Hornady DGX with the wide, flat meplat, she lost some faith in it and wanted an Echols rifle in 416. So she now uses the 416 for virtually everything . Taj loves the 375 Ruger but also carries his 475 Turnbull and a Ruger 35 Whelen on some hunts
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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I have to say I lost a bit of excitement about the thing once I actually handled one of the Hawkeye .375 Rugers. Smooth feeding was not one of it's virtues, especially in comparison to most H&Hs I've handled. This was years ago, so likely with those early rounds. It was also before I heard of your trick of ever so slightly dremeling the start of the chamber.
Last edited by pabucktail; 07/08/20.
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Phil, from what I gathered from her story, you loaded that ammunition that jammed up on her during the bear charge, correct?
I don't blame her for writing off the entirety of that sloppy jalopy.
Having owned one of the 375 rugers, hornady components would be my last choice.
With that 416 rem, she has unlimited choice in other brands of brass or loaded ammo. A serious gun, proof-checked by a serious man (Echols). That was an indepenedentaly smart choice on her behalf. A choice that will further her safety, and the safety of her clients.
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Never hunted bear, or plan to ever hunt a bear. But this is an excellent thread.
All American
All the time
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I've hunted in brown bear country with a 243 more than any other rifle. Just have to keep your wits about you. My brother and I had a very near miss with a Grizzly this spring. He was packing a 243. I happened to have a 375 Ruger. After we had a minute to reflect, he looked at his rifle and said “well that was a dumb choice”. I replied “just make sure you hit him right”. He replied “missing is what worries me”.
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well the next time I get to go I will pass on my 375h& and my 9.2x64 and go straight to my old fateful 3006. should work just fine,
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I've hunted in brown bear country with a 243 more than any other rifle. Just have to keep your wits about you. My brother and I had a very near miss with a Grizzly this spring. He was packing a 243. I happened to have a 375 Ruger. After we had a minute to reflect, he looked at his rifle and said “well that was a dumb choice”. I replied “just make sure you hit him right”. He replied “missing is what worries me”. I walked up to a sleeping brown bear, got maybe 20ft from it as I came to the top of a hill. Luckily the wind was in my face so the bear never woke up. I backed out of there real quiet like and swung way around where it was. I was puckered for sure!
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Phil, from what I gathered from her story, you loaded that ammunition that jammed up on her during the bear charge, correct?
I don't blame her for writing off the entirety of that sloppy jalopy.
Having owned one of the 375 rugers, hornady components would be my last choice.
With that 416 rem, she has unlimited choice in other brands of brass or loaded ammo. A serious gun, proof-checked by a serious man (Echols). That was an indepenedentaly smart choice on her behalf. A choice that will further her safety, and the safety of her clients. No, those were factory loads she was carrying. I have enough sense lot to load wide, flat nosed bullets with steel jackets in any bolt action ! I had a heart to heart talk with Hornady at the next SCI show and I am sure so did many others. The new DGX have a much smaller meplat with a rounded nose and work superbly
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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I've hunted in brown bear country with a 243 more than any other rifle. Just have to keep your wits about you. My brother and I had a very near miss with a Grizzly this spring. He was packing a 243. I happened to have a 375 Ruger. After we had a minute to reflect, he looked at his rifle and said “well that was a dumb choice”. I replied “just make sure you hit him right”. He replied “missing is what worries me”. I walked up to a sleeping brown bear, got maybe 20ft from it as I came to the top of a hill. Luckily the wind was in my face so the bear never woke up. I backed out of there real quiet like and swung way around where it was. I was puckered for sure! I was glassing for caribou up in the Talkeetnas 3-4 years ago when I caught movement in the corner of my eye, outside of the ocular lens. 20 yards away was what I thought was a small cub grizzly. My britches got smelly and heavy as I frantically looked around for momma. I then looked back at the cub, and it ended up being a big porcupine with that grizzled look and color scheme they have, especially when viewing them from the back. I'm still traumatized
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Had a bear stand up and woof/snap at me at 20 yds on kodiak. Really didn’t want to have to shoot it as I had flown in that same day. All ended well but had a few moments of oh crap.
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I have a kodiak tag for the spring. Probably will be 300win and a mono.
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Go with Phil's choice the 220 grain Partition. But any stout bullet of 200+ grains would be good.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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Go with Phil's choice the 220 grain Partition. But any stout bullet of 200+ grains would be good. Probably 180 or 168
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Go with Phil's choice the 220 grain Partition. But any stout bullet of 200+ grains would be good. Probably 180 or 168 A 168ttsx would do the job just fine. Its the only bullet I use anymore out of my 300saum. Never recovered one. Killed goats and deer with it. Bears are tougher but those bullets will penetrate.
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I have a kodiak tag for the spring. Probably will be 300win and a mono. I've seen more than a couple tip over to a 300 win mag. What rifle you using? Which tag did ya draw? PM if its a secret..
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I have a kodiak tag for the spring. Probably will be 300win and a mono. I've seen more than a couple tip over to a 300 win mag. What rifle you using? Which tag did ya draw? PM if its a secret.. Calvin is a fisherman, it's all a secret!
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Phil, from what I gathered from her story, you loaded that ammunition that jammed up on her during the bear charge, correct?
I don't blame her for writing off the entirety of that sloppy jalopy.
Having owned one of the 375 rugers, hornady components would be my last choice.
With that 416 rem, she has unlimited choice in other brands of brass or loaded ammo. A serious gun, proof-checked by a serious man (Echols). That was an indepenedentaly smart choice on her behalf. A choice that will further her safety, and the safety of her clients. No, those were factory loads she was carrying. I have enough sense lot to load wide, flat nosed bullets with steel jackets in any bolt action ! I had a heart to heart talk with Hornady at the next SCI show and I am sure so did many others. The new DGX have a much smaller meplat with a rounded nose and work superbly I also read that first iteration of the DGX had a horrible track record of just coming apart. What i read on the world wide internet, the final straw Steve Hornady used them in Africa with dismal results. It was back to the drawing board..
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego. Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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Phil, from what I gathered from her story, you loaded that ammunition that jammed up on her during the bear charge, correct?
I don't blame her for writing off the entirety of that sloppy jalopy.
Having owned one of the 375 rugers, hornady components would be my last choice.
With that 416 rem, she has unlimited choice in other brands of brass or loaded ammo. A serious gun, proof-checked by a serious man (Echols). That was an indepenedentaly smart choice on her behalf. A choice that will further her safety, and the safety of her clients. No, those were factory loads she was carrying. I have enough sense lot to load wide, flat nosed bullets with steel jackets in any bolt action ! I had a heart to heart talk with Hornady at the next SCI show and I am sure so did many others. The new DGX have a much smaller meplat with a rounded nose and work superbly A heart to heart. Sounds a little bit like an understatement. Did this heart to heart happen in the woodshed.
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.300--.338,,,,why dick around with less,....that's the way I see it.
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I don't know if he was BSing me or not, but once had a guy who said he guided on Kodiak and carried a Merkel 470NE. 2 shots, one after another would be pretty serious stopping power.
"243/85TSX It's as if the HAMMER OF THOR were wielded by CHUCK NORRIS himself, and a roundhouse kick thrown in for good measure."
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I don't know if he was BSing me or not, but once had a guy who said he guided on Kodiak and carried a Merkel 470NE. 2 shots, one after another would be pretty serious stopping power. Joe Want carried double rifle I forget what caliber maybe Phil can chime in I want to say it was a 500 something
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego. Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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No, those were factory loads she was carrying...
.......
The new DGX have a much smaller meplat with a rounded nose and work superbly
So the .375 factory rounds she carried for the DG hunt were tested/cycled through that specific Ruger rifle prior and everything worked fine?
With that 416 rem, she has unlimited choice
in other brands of brass or loaded ammo. A
serious gun, proof-checked by a serious man
(Echols). That was an indepenedentaly smart
choice on her behalf. A choice that will further her safety, and the safety of her clients.
Whats important is what specific ammunition D'Arcy Proof-checked the Legend with. Not sure if he guarantees a rifle to feed anything and everything off the shelf, or what concoction one might later roll for themselves. One thing I would trust is D'Arcy telling me he tested specific wide meplat rounds and saying they are 'good to go' . I recall he built a .505 magnum mauser and he showed where the leading edge of FN solid was below the start of the feed ramp...😂
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Tell D’Arcy a rifle has to feed empties. 😂
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I have a kodiak tag for the spring. Probably will be 300win and a mono. I've seen more than a couple tip over to a 300 win mag. What rifle you using? Which tag did ya draw? PM if its a secret.. Uganik Lake. Db 254. Know anything about that area? Rem 700 xcr2 in 300wm.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Beautiful area. Hunted it for deer years ago--and saw lots of fresh bear sign!
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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I’ve killed one, with a bow.
If I were rifle hunting, I’d use a 7MM mag, 300win, or 338 win, and heavier bullets.
NRA Patron
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I have a kodiak tag for the spring. Probably will be 300win and a mono. I've seen more than a couple tip over to a 300 win mag. What rifle you using? Which tag did ya draw? PM if its a secret.. Uganik Lake. Db 254. Know anything about that area? Rem 700 xcr2 in 300wm. I haven't hunted Uganik, most of my time on Kodiak has been spent further south. I do know its a good place to NOT shoot a dink! I've had a couple friends work for Sam and they consistently took great bears. If you need a spotter I might come out of retirement. Only need some pilot bread and a couple of mountain houses as a payment
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PM sent. I have a kodiak tag for the spring. Probably will be 300win and a mono. I've seen more than a couple tip over to a 300 win mag. What rifle you using? Which tag did ya draw? PM if its a secret.. Uganik Lake. Db 254. Know anything about that area? Rem 700 xcr2 in 300wm. I haven't hunted Uganik, most of my time on Kodiak has been spent further south. I do know its a good place to NOT shoot a dink! I've had a couple friends work for Sam and they consistently took great bears. If you need a spotter I might come out of retirement. Only need some pilot bread and a couple of mountain houses as a payment
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Tell D’Arcy a rifle has to feed empties. 😂 Laughing! Which reminds me. I plan on hunting with empties this fall. I should check that they function in the rifle properly.
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I like the idea of a .35 Whelen. in a Remington 700 Classic I I may. Scarcer than Brown Bears though.
Last edited by Uncle_Alvah; 07/10/20.
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Tell D’Arcy a rifle has to feed empties. 😂 Laughing! Which reminds me. I plan on hunting with empties this fall. I should check that they function in the rifle properly. D'Arcy's normal comment is "why would anyone want to feed empties?"
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Just out of curiosity, does anyone think the 7mm Rem Mag acceptable for brown bear? It's generally not mentioned in brown bear discussions, nut the 30-06 gets a fair amount of consideration. I tend to think anything the 30-06 can do, the 7mm Rem Mag can do a little better since it drives higher SD bullets faster, along with generally higher BC values. A good 175 should penetrate better than a 30 cal 180gr version of a given bullet style. Perhaps there's something to be said for bullet diamter, and a 30 cal being a better choice? I'd like to do on a hunt with Phil in a few years, and am just thinking what I might take for my rifle...7mm rem Mag, or set up a 30-06 or 300 Win Mag. I'm probably overthinking it, but that's what rifle loonies do lol
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I'd bet there has been more than a few big bears shot with the various 7mm magnums. Probably with many less powerful outfits too. Goes back to what you have, are very familiar with and shoot well. Placing an adequate bullet in the right spot. But why take a minimal diameter cartridge for a really big animal that tends to get pissed off when shot. I have more than a few magnum rifles from 264 to 375 as I've already said my consideration would start at 30 caliber for self. Sometimes in life you have to use what tools you have when it something's needs to be done rfn. This bear hunt has all the time the op needs to plan and select the right tools to use and he has already said a m700 Rem 300 win mag ,his question was for the bullet recommendation. I've used 700 remingtons all my life as well as others, I am surprised the crf fanboys aren't heaping it on him. MB
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
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This bear hunt has all the time the op needs to plan and select the right tools to use and he has already said a m700 Rem 300 win mag ,his question was for the bullet recommendation. I've used 700 remingtons all my life as well as others, I am surprised the crf fanboys aren't heaping it on him. MB LOLOLOL. I'm in the surprise boat with you.
WWP53D
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Just out of curiosity, does anyone think the 7mm Rem Mag acceptable for brown bear? 458 answered this somewhere in the first three pages of responses, he said yes very good. Bob Hagel had a story about an incident where he thought the 300 magnum with 200 grain Bitter Roots was better. He was comparing the 200 BBC to a 175 Nosler I believe, so if they both had the same make bullets I think they would be closer. Bitter Roots open up much more than partitions while still penetrating almost as well. He was making a case that the 300 was a better Alaskan cartridge than the 7mm but then his favorite was the 340 Weatherby so a single incident to re-enforce his personal bias. But then he had hundreds more experiences to do so as well. [/quote] D'Arcy's normal comment is "why would anyone want to feed empties?" [/quote] This sounds like what a Zeiss rep said to a gun writer who said the earlier Zeiss scopes wouldn't pass the hot water leak test. " Vie vood anyone vant to do that?"
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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Tell D’Arcy a rifle has to feed empties. 😂 Laughing! Which reminds me. I plan on hunting with empties this fall. I should check that they function in the rifle properly. D'Arcy's normal comment is "why would anyone want to feed empties?" I know it!
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There is no substitute for being competent and comfortable with whatever rifle, or handgun or binoculars you choose to defend yourself with. What do you figure the minimum magnification a hunter should use for taking coastal bears when using binocs? I'm guessing 8x, but placement is everything. If you can handle 10x, then maybe that will give you an edge. :-)
"Behavior accepted is behavior repeated."
"Strive to be underestimated."
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Campfire Kahuna
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There is no substitute for being competent and comfortable with whatever rifle, or handgun or binoculars you choose to defend yourself with. What do you figure the minimum magnification a hunter should use for coastal bears when using binocs? I'm guessing 8x, but placement is everything. If you can handle 10x, then maybe that will give you an edge. :-) LAS is the only one I know using "bino pills" for brown bears.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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8X worked. No doubt I'd choose 10x next time. But it was only a griz- not a brown. She was a mite confused, but not serious. Now, for a bear that was serious.... I'd want at least an 9 X19.... Oh, and in hand. That cased, empty-chambered .30-06 20 yards away just did not cut the mustard. (Not commenting about me) Nor did stupid, but you gotta go with what's at hand. No animals were harmed in this exercise, which would not have been the case with arms in hand. Them poor little orphan cubs... Win- win. I cannot recommend.... A poster case for lucky better than good - all around.
Last edited by las; 07/17/20.
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
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So far my personal minimum is a 9x19
I think a 7MM running Berger VLDs is a bit better for a real hunt. Just Sayin.
John Burns
I have all the sources.
They can't stop the signal.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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So far my personal minimum is a 9x19
I think a 7MM running Berger VLDs is a bit better for a real hunt. Just Sayin. True- but Phil wasn't hunting, "just" defending otherwise clients If I understand this right.. With what he had to hand. I personally have no experience with Berger VLD, but my impression is that there are several better choices available for this type hunt.
Last edited by las; 07/17/20.
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
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Campfire Oracle
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So far my personal minimum is a 9x19
I think a 7MM running Berger VLDs is a bit better for a real hunt. Just Sayin. Try to keep up.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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Campfire Oracle
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So far my personal minimum is a 9x19
I think a 7MM running Berger VLDs is a bit better for a real hunt. Just Sayin. True- but Phil wasn't hunting, "just" defending otherwise clients If I understand this right.. With what he had to hand. I personally have no experience with Berger VLD, but my impression is that there are several better choices available for this type hunt. Key word: proprietary.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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Campfire 'Bwana
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So I am bit dense, Mike. Try to keep me up... it's a full time position, I promise you.
Last edited by las; 07/18/20.
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
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Campfire Kahuna
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So I am bit dense, Mike. Try to keep me up... it's a full time position, I promise you. Is it the pay or the benefits he wants?
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Hard to tell- he's illusive. ellusive?..JFC- you are the English major...
Last edited by las; 07/18/20.
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
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John, Berger doesn’t make a 9mm handgun VLD? So far my personal minimum is a 9x19
I think a 7MM running Berger VLDs is a bit better for a real hunt. Just Sayin.
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General
John Stark.
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John, Berger doesn’t make a 9mm handgun VLD? So far my personal minimum is a 9x19
I think a 7MM running Berger VLDs is a bit better for a real hunt. Just Sayin. They do, but you can only run them in the extended Glock mags.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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John, Berger doesn’t make a 9mm handgun VLD? So far my personal minimum is a 9x19
I think a 7MM running Berger VLDs is a bit better for a real hunt. Just Sayin. Very true and duly noted.
John Burns
I have all the sources.
They can't stop the signal.
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What bullets might be best these days for a .348 Win?
About 30 years ago I loaded some with Hornady 200 FPs and Barnes 250 FNs... but I'd guess there's something better on the market nowadays? I tend to think heavier is likely better; wouldn't mind a wider meplat, assuming experiment shows reliable feeding...
I meant to experiment with gas-checked HCLs back then, too, but IIRC I never found a source.... and don't want to do any casting myself...
-Chris
Last edited by Ranger4444; 07/20/20.
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Swift makes a 348 Aframe. That should be a great choice.
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Looks like the A-Frame is only in 200-gr. Would think maybe more better than the earlier Hornady FPs, but I wonder if the 250-gr Woodleigh Weldcore wouldn't be better for thread topic?
I've thought HCLs would be decent, too, but maybe only if even heavier -- 275? 300? -- given they'd likely be at lower velocity anyway. No experience with HCLs in rifles, though.
And no experience with coastal brown bears, for that matter.
I wonder if T.R. might have thought an M71 chambered for something like .411 (??) Winchester -- same case as the .348 -- was the bee's knees if Winchester had intro'd both at the same time (and if T.R. was still alive then), perhaps as a legit successor to the 1895 .405 for those who didn't gravitate toward a Model 70. I don't have lots of hands-on with the M1895, but they've seemed kinda clunky compared to my M71.
-Chris
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Mythical situation: Hiking out for a bear watch in coastal AK or Kodiak Island, etc... and carrying a Winchester Model 71 in the original .348 Winchester chambering. IOW, not hunting, just thinking to keep Br'er Bear from chewing parts off attendant personages.
Which bullets better, and (ideally) why: Woodleigh 250-grain Weldcore, Hawk 270-grain or 250-grain FP, Barnes Original 250-grain "Solid", or even the Swift 200-grain A-Frame?
(I've already assumed the original Winchester 200-grain Silvertips, the original Hornady 200-grain FPs, and the Hornady 200-grain FTXs would be non-starters in this role.)
-Chris
Last edited by Ranger4444; 08/18/20.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I worked with a guy long ago that had a .300 Win. Mag. made up for a Dall sheep hunt. It had a heavy 27 inch barrel and a big scope and weighed right at 12 pounds. . Now, here's a sheep rifle...  Bet it'll top 12#'s. Posted this one before. DF ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/IJUb4uV.jpg)
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Bears move fast and have to be anchored. I have shot bull elk with an original 1895 in.405 WCF. Its a good cartridge
and many bears have been killed with it. I also have a few Model 71s, including a 348 Ack Imp which will handle a 270 gr Hawk bullet. And a 450 AK on a pre-war Deluxe Model 71.
But for coastal big brownies, its a early M-70 in 338WM-375 H&H . Backed up by a 450 Alaskan. Always a good idea to bring two rifles
on a guided hunt up here.
If your rifle goes south-where is the closest gunsmith? Another heavy rifle is the answer.
If you are fishing and an irritated brownie shows up in the alders and its getting late on the trail,
I would prefer a 450 AK with 400 gr bullets and fast reloading of a smooth Winchester M-71 any day. Maybe even a 50-100-450 1886 Winchester if he squares over 10 ft. and is all teeth and claws- & mad.
Bolt actions are SLOW for repeat shots compared to a slick Winchester or Marlin lever action rifle.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena-not the critic"-T. Roosevelt
There are no atheists in fox holes or in the open doors of a para's aircraft.....
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I also have a few Model 71s, including a 348 Ack Imp which will handle a 270 gr Hawk bullet. And a 450 AK on a pre-war Deluxe Model 71.
But for coastal big brownies, its a early M-70 in 338WM-375 H&H . Backed up by a 450 Alaskan. Always a good idea to bring two rifles
on a guided hunt up here.
I would prefer a 450 AK with 400 gr bullets and fast reloading of a smooth Winchester M-71 any day. Maybe even a 50-100-450 1886 Winchester if he squares over 10 ft. and is all teeth and claws- & mad.
Bolt actions are SLOW for repeat shots compared to a slick Winchester or Marlin lever action rifle.
Yeah, from reading, I get the .45+ thing. I have a .338 WM Model 70, too... but imagine the slowest person you know with a bolt-rifle... and I'm twice as slow. If I were buying for an actual bear hunt, I'd probably look at one of the Browning M71s... and then maybe have some fun picking a cartridge to rebarrel to. But that's not gonna happen; I never really had much desire to go shoot a bear in the first place... And my Winchester Model 71 is a family pass-down, '37 serial number, all the "DeLuxe" features, etc... so I don't want to modify it. Are you saying the Hawk 270 would be better than the Woodleigh bonded 250, for a "bear watch" M71/.348? -Chris
Last edited by Ranger4444; 08/19/20.
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That is a good question. Its nip and tuck, but I have used most available 348 bullets including the defunct North Forks.
Would probably go with the bonded core Woodleighs or AK Kodiak 250s . But -given that you want to keep the rifle
unaltered in the original 348 WCF, I would look at the Swift A-frames. They are like a bonded core Nosler.
The weight of 200 grs is good, I believe. If you use a Premium quality bullet, you don't necessarily need
a 348 Ack IMP. Mine worked really well on AK moose. I would carry it as a bear protective measure.
Different story if you are hunting a coastal brownie in the alders. A Model 71 or 1886
is really a point blank to 125 yard rifle. Range is further, but the FP bullets shed velocity really fast.
You need tough bullets that hang together.
Two rifles on a hunt. One rifle, a 348 with the best bullets- on a hiking or fishing trip in AK. (A 30-30 or a 243 will not get it done.)
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena-not the critic"-T. Roosevelt
There are no atheists in fox holes or in the open doors of a para's aircraft.....
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Fair enough, thanks. I've got the Wodleigh 250ss, and I have some A-Frame 200s inbound... plus my older supply of Hornady FPs and Barnes 250 Solids.... and some FTX inbound. Sounds like no huge need to order any Hawk 270s, at least for the time being.
This will likely turn into a very slow handloading project: Check sights (mostly for point of aim) with factory 200-grain Silvertips, call it good, think about the others and work up loads at my leisure.
I want to make sure I can reliably slay one of our paper targets at 100 yards... given we don't have too many great bears here on the Chesapeake. Might go on a hog hunt sometime, though. I'd guess almost anything out of a .348 would work for that.
-Chris
Last edited by Ranger4444; 08/19/20.
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I also have a few Model 71s, including a 348 Ack Imp which will handle a 270 gr Hawk bullet. And a 450 AK on a pre-war Deluxe Model 71.
But for coastal big brownies, its a early M-70 in 338WM-375 H&H . Backed up by a 450 Alaskan. Always a good idea to bring two rifles
on a guided hunt up here.
I would prefer a 450 AK with 400 gr bullets and fast reloading of a smooth Winchester M-71 any day. Maybe even a 50-100-450 1886 Winchester if he squares over 10 ft. and is all teeth and claws- & mad.
Bolt actions are SLOW for repeat shots compared to a slick Winchester or Marlin lever action rifle.
Yeah, from reading, I get the .45+ thing. I have a .338 WM Model 70, too... but imagine the slowest person you know with a bolt-rifle... and I'm twice as slow. If I were buying for an actual bear hunt, I'd probably look at one of the Browning M71s... and then maybe have some fun picking a cartridge to rebarrel to. But that's not gonna happen; I never really had much desire to go shoot a bear in the first place...And my Winchester Model 71 is a family pass-down, '37 serial number, all the "DeLuxe" features, etc... so I don't want to modify it. Are you saying the Hawk 270 would be better than the Woodleigh bonded 250, for a "bear watch" M71/.348? -Chris After another few nano-seconds worth of thought... and a quick glance at citations in the J.J. Donnelly manual... if I were really going to try an actual real-life bear hunt, I bet I could talk myself into a Browning M71 rechambered to .416-348. Not an AI version; just the original .348 necked up to accept 400-grain .416 bullets. LOTS of those to choose from. I'm thinking the more original shape may better retain the original's smooth feeding, and there's at least one thread around here where somebody made up a .416-348 AI and reported afterwards that it doesn't feed as smoothly as he'd hoped... afterwards thinking the original could have been better. So... M71 with aperture sights... maybe even a scout mount for a choice of IER scopes and/or RDS options. (I see Browning is offering an optional scout mount for their BLRs; maybe the concept could work here, too.) Anyway, I could do a LOT to keep from learning how to run a bolt rifle very well. I've actually been practicing that recently; not good. Completely unnatural after almost 60 years of hunting and later also competing with lever rifles. -Chris
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Campfire Kahuna
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The 375 H&H will get you there just fine with a lot less fuss...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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And that'd most likely be in a bolt action? I may have mentioned I could probably walk to Alaska and back faster than cycling a bolt rifle... Molasses got nuthin' on me.
And I've already got a .338WM Model 70... so I could continue to be just as slow with that as with a new .375.
Actually, for less fuss, I guess a Marlin or Henry .45-70 lever rifle could be OK, too... just not as attractive to me as a (another) Model 71.
-Chris
Last edited by Ranger4444; 08/25/20.
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Campfire Kahuna
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I think you overestimate the need for ultimate speed. Make the first shot properly and it reduces the need for each and every shot that follows.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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I'm certainly willing to believe you're correct... given no bear experience and only armchair analysis.
I'm not thinking about hunting bears, though; instead I'm thinking about protection from being hunted. I'm not entirely used to making that "first shot properly" on teeth approaching me at freight-train speed.
-Chris
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Campfire 'Bwana
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It's a fast learning curve. "Fast" in both (three?) senses.
Last edited by las; 08/25/20.
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
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Heh... I think not much attraction to finishing second, either.
-Chris
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I barreled a handful of BLRs in 375 Ruger. Did one up in 416 Ruger too.
Built a bunch of custom 86s and 71s in 450 and 50 AK
A gadzillion Marlin 95s, a bunch of them in 50AK
Could get a magazine full of .510” 450gr Aframes or Kodiaks in the air as fast as most guys could 30/30s. Still when it came time for hunting and guiding I always reached for a good bolt rifle with a good scope. Most times a 35 Whelen stuffed with 250s, occasionally a 458 pushing 350s at 2550.
I like lever rifles don’t get me wrong. But when the chips, or in a guided hunter’s case the $$$, are down I want things as bombproof as possible. Leverguns inherently aren’t.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I like lever rifles don’t get me wrong. But when the chips, or in a guided hunter’s case the $$$, are down I want things as bombproof as possible. Leverguns inherently aren’t.
I'm interested in these statements, and I'd like you to elaborate. What do you mean by "Leverguns inherently aren't [bombproof]"?
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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Campfire Ranger
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I barreled a handful of BLRs in 375 Ruger. Did one up in 416 Ruger too.
Built a bunch of custom 86s and 71s in 450 and 50 AK
A gadzillion Marlin 95s, a bunch of them in 50AK
Could get a magazine full of .510” 450gr Aframes or Kodiaks in the air as fast as most guys could 30/30s. Still when it came time for hunting and guiding I always reached for a good bolt rifle with a good scope. Most times a 35 Whelen stuffed with 250s, occasionally a 458 pushing 350s at 2550.
I like lever rifles don’t get me wrong. But when the chips, or in a guided hunter’s case the $$$, are down I want things as bombproof as possible. Leverguns inherently aren’t. I always felt like a stainless Remington 7600 "Guide Gun" in 338 Fed would make a good closer quarters brown bear rifle.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I like lever rifles don’t get me wrong. But when the chips, or in a guided hunter’s case the $$$, are down I want things as bombproof as possible. Leverguns inherently aren’t.
I'm interested in these statements, and I'd like you to elaborate. What do you mean by "Leverguns inherently aren't [bombproof]"? They have an extra hole, the loading gate, for “stuff” to get in, IE dirt, mud, leaves and whatnot. And are not as easily field stripable in the case of the Marlin and nearly not field stripable in the case of the 1886/71. The entire repeating function of all centerfire Marlin lever aside from the Levermatics in 30 Carbine and 256Win rely on a part called the carrier rocker or dog to function. This tiny part is about 3/32 thick with a built in stress riser in the bottom of the hook. One round hung up on a feed ramp or halfway out of the mag tube when the follower seizes because the tube has sand in it and that hook will pop right off the carrier. Leaving you with a jammed rifle that will be a slow loading single shot when you get the stoppage cleared. I bet I replaced a couple hundred of those dogs over the years. The extractor is a little square of sheet metal about 3/16x3/16x.020” brazed onto a piece of spring steel. It generally makes contact with a spot on the case rim about 1/16”wide. Talked with lots of guys who were dead set on “reliable” iron sights on their hunting rifles. I would guess I replaced 2 dozen front blades every fall and 50 of the factory Marlin rear leaves a year. Can’t remember the last time I heard of someone with a decent quality scope of somewhat recent manufacture fogging up. I personally broke the front sight off of my rifle 3 times during my decade hunting AK, some broken when I took a fall or a rifle slid off where it was leaning. Never had a scope lose zero or fog during that time, including hunting in coastal rainforest and once taking a tumble almost 30 feet off a rock face and landing on my scope with the rifle slung across my back. There’s a reason no military used lever rifles in any meaningful capacity. They just aren’t as tough as a good bolt rifle as well as being more difficult to keep running in the field under poor conditions.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I like lever rifles don’t get me wrong. But when the chips, or in a guided hunter’s case the $$$, are down I want things as bombproof as possible. Leverguns inherently aren’t.
I'm interested in these statements, and I'd like you to elaborate. What do you mean by "Leverguns inherently aren't [bombproof]"? They have an extra hole, the loading gate, for “stuff” to get in, IE dirt, mud, leaves and whatnot. And are not as easily field stripable in the case of the Marlin and nearly not field stripable in the case of the 1886/71. The entire repeating function of all centerfire Marlin lever aside from the Levermatics in 30 Carbine and 256Win rely on a part called the carrier rocker or dog to function. This tiny part is about 3/32 thick with a built in stress riser in the bottom of the hook. One round hung up on a feed ramp or halfway out of the mag tube when the follower seizes because the tube has sand in it and that hook will pop right off the carrier. Leaving you with a jammed rifle that will be a slow loading single shot when you get the stoppage cleared. I bet I replaced a couple hundred of those dogs over the years. The extractor is a little square of sheet metal about 3/16x3/16x.020” brazed onto a piece of spring steel. It generally makes contact with a spot on the case rim about 1/16”wide. Talked with lots of guys who were dead set on “reliable” iron sights on their hunting rifles. I would guess I replaced 2 dozen front blades every fall and 50 of the factory Marlin rear leaves a year. Can’t remember the last time I heard of someone with a decent quality scope of somewhat recent manufacture fogging up. I personally broke the front sight off of my rifle 3 times during my decade hunting AK, some broken when I took a fall or a rifle slid off where it was leaning. Never had a scope lose zero or fog during that time, including hunting in coastal rainforest and once taking a tumble almost 30 feet off a rock face and landing on my scope with the rifle slung across my back. There’s a reason no military used lever rifles in any meaningful capacity. They just aren’t as tough as a good bolt rifle as well as being more difficult to keep running in the field under poor conditions. Thanks for the information. I can see what you mean. I've certainly had my share of functional issues with lever actions in hunting scenarios that caused problems at exactly the wrong time.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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