Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns ..hard cast?

A few surprises in this video... No surprise in terms of velocity that the 10mm beat out the .40 S&W when using the same bullet, in this case a 200 grain "hard cast" coated Underwood ammo...

The major surprise was near the end in the water jug test. The author put a dinner plate (maybe to simulate bone) in front of the jugs. The bullets only made it through 4 jugs after the plate, were deformed and lost about 25 grains of weight...

I've shot a lot of water testing ammo but have only tested a few hard cast .41 rounds because the results have been the same...just lots of jugs with holes in them and a bullet that looks like it could be reloaded...

Was wondering if any of you have tried either ammo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpYqz7EVZ-0


Bob

I haven’t tried either, but , have a theory.....perhaps the bullets were “brittle” from too much tin, antimony, etc, causing them to shed an “unacceptable” amount of bullet material! memtb

Doubtful.

Tin doesnt make the alloy brittle, antimony does.

A company mass producing bullets isnt using that much antimony at handgun speeds to shatter.
Those bullets didnt shatter; they're actually pretty ductile.

The alloy isnt hard as its advertised, if its even advertised.
Its probably a requisite 18-22 BHN bullet with a bake, which softens the bullet a bit.

Exactly what I think as well.

I cast mine about the same hardness, and have coated some of the PB version. They weigh about 205 all up, and I shoot them about 1050 out of a 5" barrel with Longshot.

Question, Hawk. Do you powder-coat bullets, and do you ever try to heat-treat coated bullets? I water-drop mine right out of the coating bake, but they do seem to lose a bit of hardness from the original quench.

I dont coat.

I dabbled with it a bit probably 20 years ago with colloidal graphite dag suspended in alcohol. This required literally painting the bullets, but worked the same way after it dries.
It works similar to mold prep.

Dropping them out of the bake is actually annealing/drawing them a bit; the temp to bake isnt high enough to treat the metal and is actually softening it.

I use a 200WFN for the 10 mm, heat treated to 28 BHN dropped from the mold.
I use AA9, but dont recall the charge.

I don't shoot the ammo, but something to be said about the faster something hits, the faster it slows down, stands to reason when velocity overcomes the strength of the alloy deforming the nose, larger is indeed a parachute, were those projectiles mono solids the 10mm would have had a much better showing I'd bet.

Sorry Hawk, that is not correct. Water quenching after baking does harden the bullets. If you air cool after baking, it has approximately the same result as air cooling from the mold. 400°F is plenty hot enough to heat treat bullet alloys.

I can also say from experience that powder coating is nothing like graphite-coated bullets; powder coating is much tougher and handles higher speeds, while being a lot easier to apply.



As to the OP - I didn't watch the video but from your description, it doesn't sound too surprising to me. I don't know that I'd claim a porcelain (or whatever they are these days) dinner plate really simulates bone though since it's a lot harder.

Those are not hard cast in my opinion, they aren't over about 12 brinel

400 degrees for 20 minutes isnt going to achieve the hardness of 450 degrees nominal for an hour or even cadence dropped from a mould.

If you had a bullet at 22 BHN that was water dropped, re-heating in a paint bake application is going to give you a lower hardness. It will still be harder than the alloy air cooled.

Im betting the OP bullets are 15 BHN....

At the speeds that they mushroomed I'm going with 10 to 12 max

Thank you all for all your answers...

Quite a few years ago, I loaded up some Cast Performance .41/255s and shot them though 5 water jugs...after exiting the jugs, the bullet went through a 3/4" piece of concrete form plywood and the buried itself 1/2 way into another... The bullet lost the gas check and that was about it...

It would be interesting to put these bullets on a hardness tester to see what they run...

Bob

I'm guessing about 15 also.

I have a Glock 20 10mm, but find myself carrying my Glock 27 in ,40 S&W in the woods of southern Ohio more often than not. With a Lone Wolf replacement barrel. I load it with a round of CCI snake shot in the barrel, and 200 grain hard cast in the magazine. Either Double Tap or Buffalo Bore. The odd black bear may show up, but mostly I'm concerned about wild pigs or mean dogs that run loose.

Ron

I ran CPB stuff when I first got my hardness tester.

They were real consistent at 18 BHN.

I've found through several moulds that the alloy doesn't reach the same hardness it had after initial quench has had a chance to fully harden. They don't go soft, but the difference ends up somewhere between an air-cool and a water drop. The bigger bullets like the 44 and 45 cal I notice the change in hardness more than for the smaller 35 cal ones. I don't mind for my applications.

Powder coating is VERY tough, and covers lots of sins. I have no leading running PB coated bullets out of various handguns at top pressures, and above. I run a 125gr powder coated Lee RNFP at 1450 fps out of a 9mm carbine with Longshot. That has to be getting near 40k psi. No leading, no coating in the barrel, and with a 4x scope, 2" at 100 for 5 is easy. There are advantages to the powder coating.

It wont hit the same hardness (dont take my word for it, get a tester) heat treated after a paint bake over quenching from the mold or oven treating. The closer to slump or a longer "soak"at near slump will create higher BHN numbers.

Dropping them coated from a 400 degree paint bake for 20 mins is probably going to make WW metal be around 15 BHN. Obviously it varies with alloy composition.

Powder coated bullets are an "easy" button, and like you said, cover a lot of sins.

But if I had a reason to do so, I havent found it yet.

Hawk, you are correct, a powder coated, water quenched bullet won't match a water quenched bullet, it will always be softer but I've quit dropping anything in water after testing with this powder coating! I don't know where the limit is for sure, but I'll never go back to lubed bullets.
I will say this, I still like the looks of a lubed bullet better but a powder coated bullet is all I'll ever use now.

Dick

Most of my reasons for heat treating is for either accuracy or terminal performance. Shallow land rifling also gets the nod.

My general use stuff is my alloy mix Ive used for years that is 11 BHN air cooled. Dropped from the mould its 28. I usually leave a two week age.

From what I see posted on the powder coated loads, especially with rifles, accuracy is hollow at best.

I think it has its merits if leading is an issue or one wants to eliminate that variable altogether, but leading always has a cause thats never been difficult to figure out so far here.

I think the major item here is that factory ammo and projectiles are often easy buttons that arent always the things they are advertised or appear to be.

And I've also never understood the concern over some leading. Everything is going to lead a little, but I sure as heck am not worried about it. It's like being worried about getting [bleep] on your starfish.

You're doing a lot of guessing about heat treating coated bullets, but I have the luxury of speaking from personal experience.

Of course a bullet quenched from 400° doesn't reach the hardness it would from 450°, but if that's the goal, turn the oven up to 450. It doesn't matter how long the bullet is in the oven as long as it gets up to temp, or what kind of oven it is (and we're not using "paint bake ovens", lol); it's the quench that hardens the alloy, not time at temp.

It's always interesting to watch you expound on powder coating though.




The mistake there is assuming everything is going to lead a little; generally true with lubed bullets, at least a mild lead wash, but not so with coated. A good coating (or paper patch for that matter, they are more similar than different) can prevent any leading, to the point you can fire thousands and thousands of rounds through a barrel without needing to even inspect it for leading or ever pass a brush through it. A complete lack of any leading is a good thing for your own health and those around you, and can contribute to better accuracy that doesn't drop off like when a barrel with lubed bullets starts to lead up.

Might wanna get out of the room when you're baking cookies; its making you take this stuff too personally!

So when you initially apply the paint coating, you apply it at 450 degrees for an hour, assuming you want treated bullets?

SOFT, MEDIUM SOFT, MEDIUM, MEDIUM HARD, HARD, SUPER HARD.
That is the question. Only the Illuminated Illuminati knows. The secrecy only the most Illuminated Illuminati know. They know everything.
Especially when it comes to bullet test videos.

Interesting video but not my experience.

I recovered an Underwood 200gr that was shot from my G20 to finish about a 375 lb bear at about 10 yds. At the shot the bear lifted his head and the bullet struck him in the right cheek, smashed 4 vertebrae front to back and was recovered just in front of the left rear hip.

The bullet has rifling marks and a just little tip deformation but held together despite penetrating 4+ ft of bear and hitting several bones along the way.

Not sure if my experience is typical or not but the one I recovered was surely hard.

Thanks for the "real world" review...

I have to wonder due to the coating, if the bullet manufacturers and using a softer [cheaper] alloy due to the coating shielding against some of the leading issues when using softer alloys at higher velocities.

Running one on a hardness tester would help.

Most commercial outfits run a standardized "hardball" alloy, which is generally 15-18 BHN and similar to Lyman #2. Softer stuff may be cheaper, but the mechanized systems for commercial stuff runs and casts much easier and less costly for their uses. Softer stuff is also undersized for nominal moulds in commercial use, another issue.

Hardball, softball, football, basketball, volleyball and all kinds of ball.
Easy easier easiest to cast. If hardball and softball is mixed equally will it make mediumball?
Will mediumball be good for casting? Could it be predicted by looking into the crystalball?
Would a video be in order? If more than two kinds of ball are mixed would it then be manyball?
Would the manyball have some of all the good of each of the individual balls in it and the bad too?
That is the question from glockdoofusball.

I have the Lee Hardness Tester saved in my favorites box, it's still out of stock at Midway, will grab one when they become available.

LBT makes a nice tester go to their web site

Thanks!

That's the one I use.

Its pretty easy to use; just make sure the base is flat (no raised sprues or unfilled area).

Made these on Sunday, water dropped from the mould, both from the same pot.

The LBT tester is quick, accurate and easy to use.

Thanks again JWP.

Damn Hawk, those are harder than a whores heart.

This thread is called "hard cast", is it not?

LOL, yeah, but damn, I thought my 21 BHN alloy was hard, that craps like bubblegum compared to what you're casting ; ]

That's where "hard casts" begins for heavy revolvers in my opinion. Anything less isn't a hard cast

The harder the allow the more accurate the bullet will be with a good line

I like LBT lubes the best

I wondered about a 220 gr WFN at max velocity? And What is the maximum weight bullet to use in a 10MM? I don't have as much need for the 40 although it would be interesting in a Half-Power. YMMV. Also are those rascally bears using ceramic armor these days???Be Well, Rustyzipper.

Clicked the link, had a look at the LBT hardness tester, I cast some bullets 1.5 inches long, guess a man would need to file a flat on the side of the bullet for testing hardness?

Yes, or just cast a shorter bullet of the same alloy

That'll work, i'll file it, casting a shorter bullet would mean I'd have to get another mold ready ; ] Thanks.

No.

Just fill the cavity half full.

I see! Thanks again Hawk.

Hawk, just a thought, can you guys harden lead to the point of it being brittle on game? if so, what hardness number/alloy mixture do you stop at? always wondered about that.

You sure can, especially if you are adding antimony or arsenic.

Antimony beyond what is in wheelweights heat treated or in Lino can break in large chunks.
I have a "varmint load" for the 22 Hornet that uses lino; it acts like a varmint bullet.

Wheelweights usually "powder down" as they expand at rifle speeds, even at high levels of hardness and impact speeds.

Arsenic at higher levels can also make brittle bullets, like heat treating hard shot.

I stick to plain wheelweights with some tin or a few scraps of Lino for my handgun loads, shotgun slugs and muzzle loaders and never had an issue.

I like a good mix of grain-refiners if I am going to harden bullets up, along with a good quench. A bit of arsenic and antimony, as found in clip-on wheel weights or magnum shot, and copper, as in what dissolves into range scrap alloy from jacketed or plated bullets. It all adds up. The hardest experimental alloy I've cast and shot was a clip-on ww base, that I dissolved some copper into, tossed in some pieces of monotype, and added some magnum shot. I dropped it in ice-cold water. The bullets just got harder and harder and harder over about a month. They also grew measurably in diameter as they hardened. The antimony content would have been 6-7%, the copper would have been about .25%, and arsenic content was unknown. Copper as a grain refiner seems potent. I've heard that sulfur makes a great grain refiner as well, but I've never explored the ways one could get it into an alloy.

Adding too much of any grain refiner just makes bullets frangible, as in linotype. I've only tried shooting a few, and they just shattered when they hit the dirt, and didn't seem to shoot that great for me. I didn't want to waste the lino, as it is expensive. WW seems to be the best base alloy, IMO, sweetened to get different performance if desired, but I've also enjoyed stick-on wheel weights with added tin, and sometimes hardened slightly with other grain refiners. Work well in 45 cal handguns and 45-70.

Thanks Hawk, i'll sit at a max 22 BHN for my handguns and rifles, max velocities for either will be at or below 1500 fps, should be GTG.

I cast for 25-20WCF, 308, 38-55, 45 ACP and 45 Colt. The only one I run over 15 BHN on is the 308 at 2200 fps, and that one is a 15 BHN alloy that I water quench out of the powder coat oven. I try to stay under 3% Antimony on everything to keep from getting brittle and shattering on bone. The vast majority of my alloy is closer to 11-12 Bhn and just over 2% Antimony. Even that is harder than needed in the two handgun rounds.

I have no use for a hard cast bullet. My alloys have only gotten softer since I started powdercoating back in 2013/2014. At this point my bullets cast at 8-10 BHN and I'm as happy as can be with the accuracy and on-game performance. Last year I shot a 190lb bear and killed it with one shot to the base of the skull. Distance was maybe 15 yds and I used a 357 Maximum rifle loaded with a 10 BHN Accurate 270gr LFP cast and PC'd that was scooting along at 1790fps.

Thanks, Dinny