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Re: 308 vs small bore [Re: mjbgalt] #15000460 06/26/20
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Steve,
The 22 long rifle pre-dates the 303 British by several years (22lr--1884, 303 British--1889). The 22 LR is derived from the 22 long (1871) which, in turn, was derived from the 22 short (1857).
I guess that means the 303 British is nothing more than an enlarged 22 short. This, then, must mean that all the others on your list are themselves derivatives of the 22 short.


~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Re: 308 vs small bore [Re: mjbgalt] #15001115 06/26/20
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Originally Posted by mjbgalt
I have already consolidated. Just wondering if I have a need to add one.

Mathman is on the track I was thinking about. If the 6.5 isn't the best choice, how big do I need to go, if at all?



There are only a handful of animals I wouldn't hunt gladly with what you own, and all of them are dangerous game.


What do you plan to hunt?


"The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that lightening ain't distributed right." - Mark Twain
Re: 308 vs small bore [Re: mjbgalt] #15001301 06/26/20
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Deer. Elk eventually. Antelope.

Re: 308 vs small bore [Re: mjbgalt] #15005523 06/28/20
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First let me say I am 80 years old and in the eyes of the rest of you, I am probably considered an "old timer". I personally really like the 30-06 and believe it to be one of the best all around all around classic calibers ever. But I have never owned one! I have been witness to the 30-06 doing it's stuff for over 60 years in the hands of my best friend; who just passed away this year at age 83. He owned a pre 1964 Winchester Model 70 FWT in 30-06 and used it exclusively for his big game hunting; including white tail, mule, and black tail deer, elk, bear, on occasion coyotes. He was an excellent outdoors man and loved hunting and fishing. He made a career as a Civil Engineer for the U.S. forest service for over 40 years serving as the Forest Engineer in 7 National forests and several Regional offices. He knew the woods better than any man I ever knew. So with that amount of admiration, you would of thought I would follow his lead, but I didn't and ended using a 308 Win for most of my hunting. I read recently where the 308 has replaced the 30-06 as leader in ammunition and rifle sales. That may be true, but I know my old buddy would of stuck with his 30-06, just as I have stuck with my 308 Win. As we all should know by now, It is the skill behind the rifle, more than the caliber. The hunter that knows the capabilities and limitations of his firearm, will prove to be the more successful hunter, than the man the relies just on the most powerful rifle he can tolerate shooting. So my advice is to choose the a rifle adequate for the game you are pursing, know it well, practice with it, and go through life loving the chase and excitement of the hunt! And take time to smell the roses; and the aroma of the fresh brewed coffee!

CJ







Last edited by CascadeJinx; 06/28/20. Reason: typo
Re: 308 vs small bore [Re: mjbgalt] #15010657 06/30/20
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CJ - your last two sentences are the best advice I’ve heard yet on this forum

Thank you

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Re: 308 vs small bore [Re: StrayDog] #15010841 06/30/20
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Originally Posted by StrayDog
Sometimes, I grab the rifle according to the scope I want to use mounted on it.


Among what I consider my regular deer rifles, I have .223's 6.5 X 55, .308, .300 WSM, .303 Savage, .44 mag and .45-70. There are others, and revolvers, but these are what I consider my "first string" deer rifle calibers. Seldom is the caliber the criteria of selection. It's more often how well suited the sights/optics, action type, handling characteristics etc are considering the type of hunting and the terrain and weather I'll be hunting in. That said, if I had to whittle it down to one caliber, it would probably be a toss up between 6.5x55 and .308. I do think the 6.5x55 is a wonderful balance of accuracy, mild shooting and sufficient power to be adequate for anything I've ever hunted or will hunt in the future.



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Re: 308 vs small bore [Re: joetex] #15010961 06/30/20
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Originally Posted by joetex
Swedes have been killing moose for a long time with their 6.5s.... so unless you regularly hunt large truculent bears, I'd say your pretty well covered.


This!

Re: 308 vs small bore [Re: Georat] #15011829 07/01/20
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Originally Posted by Georat
CJ - your last two sentences are the best advice I’ve heard yet on this forum

Thank you

True that!

CascadeJinx
" So my advice is to choose the a rifle adequate for the game you are pursing, know it well, practice with it, and go through life loving the chase and excitement of the hunt! And take time to smell the roses; and the aroma of the fresh brewed coffee!"


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Re: 308 vs small bore [Re: mjbgalt] #15011979 07/01/20
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These topics have been beat to death, formulae have been touted, numbers enough to make the head spin. As a 50 year veteran of the 6.5 Swede and a few years with the the Creedmoor with 140's or heavier, I gotta say, numbers and theory aside, the thwack of the old '06 with a 165 or 180 at a 50 pound steel target at 600 yards is an eye opener. Very clearly heard thru earmuffs. The difference of night and day. The '06 hits that steel hard. Even the .308 with 155 gr is a noticeable step up from the 6.5's. But, I don't shoot game at those ranges, so this too may be hot air.

Last edited by flintlocke; 07/01/20.

guilty of white privilege : for 55 years I had the privilege to get up and go to work...to help feed the folks that wanted to sleep in.
Re: 308 vs small bore [Re: mjbgalt] #15012172 07/01/20
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One of the more interesting tests my wife and I have made concerning "killing power" involved a 9-iron golf club over 20 years ago. Eileen had taken up golf, and was playing the local course (which doesnt have many trees, but does have quite a few rocks sticking out of the ground in the "rough"). She hit one into the rough, and despite it lying next to a half-buried rock, took a whack at it with the 9-iron. She severely sprained a wrist, to the point where the arm had to be put in a cast--and we were scheduled to fly to Kodiak Island the next week to fish the silver salmon run. We did, and she managed to catch a couple, but could have caught quite a few more if it hadn't been for the wrist.

When we got back, she decided to take revenge on the offending 9-iron. A local friend has a good target range set up on his country place, and had invited us to do some shotgun and rifle shooting one weekend, so she brought the 9-iron and her .270 Winchester. We used some wire to hang the 9-iron up below the 50-yard rifle target stand, and she sat down and whacked the blade with a 150-grain Nosler Partition. The club whirled around under the target--but all we could find on the blade was a tiny dent. Our host has a big gun collection, and told us to hold on. He went into the house, and soon came back out with a .375 H&H and some handloads with steel-jacketed, 300-grain solids. Eileen was not eager to shoot the .375, so I had the honor. The 9-iron was torn from the target stand, and when we found it had a neat 3/8" hole in the middle of the blade, one of most vivid demonstrations of killing power I've ever seen.

Don't know what the hell it has to do with big game, however, since Eileen never had any trouble dropping animals with the .270, including a bull Shiras moose that's still the quickest-deadest moose kill I've ever witnessed from a double lung-shot.


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John Steinbeck
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Re: 308 vs small bore [Re: mjbgalt] #15012231 07/01/20
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Maybe it's time to develop a new ballistic term that people can wrap their minds around? How about "Splat Factor"? It's so much more graphic than 'killing power' after all.

And for the record I view the .30 caliber as a small bore. Distant recollection on my part from the Army days, if it isn't a cannon, it's small bore. confused Maybe there's an official distinction out there somewhere, I dunno.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


Re: 308 vs small bore [Re: mjbgalt] #15012256 07/01/20
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The Mule Deer guy oughta get a job in the writing game. In three short paragraphs, humor, a valid demonstration of physics, the point is made, and the last sentence, a reality check.
Home run.


guilty of white privilege : for 55 years I had the privilege to get up and go to work...to help feed the folks that wanted to sleep in.
Re: 308 vs small bore [Re: mjbgalt] #15012989 07/01/20
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My preference is for .308 caliber over a 6.5 for elk and bear. But no doubt the 6.5 will work if the bullets are put in the right place. I think these things are mostly about personal preference. If it were me, I would pick a 30-06 but a .308 would also work well. Pretty had to beat either of those cartridges for a wide variety of uses, especially for game larger/tougher than deer.

Re: 308 vs small bore [Re: mjbgalt] #15015379 07/02/20
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The question is, has Eileen learned the important lesson of not playing golf?


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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Re: 308 vs small bore [Re: Theo Gallus] #15015773 07/02/20
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Actually, she recently started again--but so far mostly practices pitching and putting, and even on our local course the area around the greens doesn't have any rocks....


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Re: 308 vs small bore [Re: Angus1895] #15015868 07/02/20
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Originally Posted by Angus1895
My Buddy told me most moose harvested in the world is by the 6.5 x 55 due to Scandinavia hunting.

I know it's not important here but the 6.5 has a robust sectional density offering.



There was a rather compelling study in Sweden that was done where 8000 moose were taken with cartridges from 6.5 Swede to 338 win mag and cartridges in between! The study concluded that there was no noticable difference in how far each animal traveled before dying after it was shot with any of the cartridges that were used. The study was done because apparently there were rumours circulating Western Civilization that magnum cartridges killed game far quicker and in there tracks! The European study found these rumours to be untrue at least on moose. Big bears certainly might have a different outcome though I don't know if a study on that subject has ever been done or compared

My thoughts are that with modern bullet offerings this is more true today than it has ever been.


Trystan




Last edited by Trystan; 07/02/20.

Good bullets properly placed always work, but not everyone knows what good bullets are, or can reliably place them in the field
Re: 308 vs small bore [Re: mjbgalt] #15015920 07/02/20
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For around 30 years or so I used both a 30-06 and a 270 to do almost all my Mule deer and Elk hunting. I fooled around with 300 magnums and a 338 but in the end for Elk I preferred my 30-06 using 180 gr. Speer Hotcors or Nosler Partitions. Could have been that 30-06 fit me well and hit exactly where I aimed every time. It is the only rifle I have kept since high school. If it had been built as a 270 I would feel the same way. Killing power always hinged on where the bullet hit the animal in question. And no I wouldn't take a 6.5 Creedmoor Ek hunting if I had access to a 270 or 30-06. Why go smaller if you don't have to. If I had an Elk hunt to get done and access to no other rifle yes I would use the 6.5.

Last edited by rickt300; 07/02/20.
Re: 308 vs small bore [Re: rickt300] #15016694 07/02/20
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rickt300,

I have considerable field experience with various "moderate" 6.5mm cartridges, including not only the dreaded Creedmoor, but the 6.5x55 and .260 Remington. Also have a LOT of experience with the .270 Winchester, and have yet to see any difference in either "killing power" or penetration between the moderate 6.5s and the .270 when using the same types of bullets. But whatever....


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Re: 308 vs small bore [Re: Trystan] #15016730 07/02/20
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Trystan,

Actually the cartridges in the Swedish statistics included the .375 H&H, and a few even larger. But many (if not most) moose in Scandinavia are killed on drives, which makes bullet placement a little iffy, despite considerable practice on running-moose targets. The statistics also did not include any info on shot placement. But the considerable numbers of moose taken do indicate something--which is of course that if a hunting bullet penetrates and expands sufficiently, the animal dies quickly.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Re: 308 vs small bore [Re: Mule Deer] #15017187 07/02/20
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
rickt300,

I have considerable field experience with various "moderate" 6.5mm cartridges, including not only the dreaded Creedmoor, but the 6.5x55 and .260 Remington. Also have a LOT of experience with the .270 Winchester, and have yet to see any difference in either "killing power" or penetration between the moderate 6.5s and the .270 when using the same types of bullets. But whatever....


For me it just boils down mostly to the success I have had using the 270 and 30-06. When I handle the old 30-06 I think of the mountains west of Daniel junction and the smell of Elk backstrap sizzling in bacon grease. I used the 6.5x55 some as an iron sight rifle with 140 gr. Partitions, took a 14 point Mule deer with it and still have the horns but not the rifle. My only 6.5 presently is a Grendel.

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