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A few surprises in this video... No surprise in terms of velocity that the 10mm beat out the .40 S&W when using the same bullet, in this case a 200 grain "hard cast" coated Underwood ammo...

The major surprise was near the end in the water jug test. The author put a dinner plate (maybe to simulate bone) in front of the jugs. The bullets only made it through 4 jugs after the plate, were deformed and lost about 25 grains of weight...

I've shot a lot of water testing ammo but have only tested a few hard cast .41 rounds because the results have been the same...just lots of jugs with holes in them and a bullet that looks like it could be reloaded...

Was wondering if any of you have tried either ammo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpYqz7EVZ-0


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I haven’t tried either, but , have a theory.....perhaps the bullets were “brittle” from too much tin, antimony, etc, causing them to shed an “unacceptable” amount of bullet material! memtb


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Doubtful.

Tin doesnt make the alloy brittle, antimony does.

A company mass producing bullets isnt using that much antimony at handgun speeds to shatter.
Those bullets didnt shatter; they're actually pretty ductile.

The alloy isnt hard as its advertised, if its even advertised.
Its probably a requisite 18-22 BHN bullet with a bake, which softens the bullet a bit.

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Originally Posted by HawkI
Doubtful.

Tin doesnt make the alloy brittle, antimony does.

A company mass producing bullets isnt using that much antimony at handgun speeds to shatter.
Those bullets didnt shatter; they're actually pretty ductile.

The alloy isnt hard as its advertised, if its even advertised.
Its probably a requisite 18-22 BHN bullet with a bake, which softens the bullet a bit.

Exactly what I think as well.

I cast mine about the same hardness, and have coated some of the PB version. They weigh about 205 all up, and I shoot them about 1050 out of a 5" barrel with Longshot.

Question, Hawk. Do you powder-coat bullets, and do you ever try to heat-treat coated bullets? I water-drop mine right out of the coating bake, but they do seem to lose a bit of hardness from the original quench.


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I dont coat.

I dabbled with it a bit probably 20 years ago with colloidal graphite dag suspended in alcohol. This required literally painting the bullets, but worked the same way after it dries.
It works similar to mold prep.

Dropping them out of the bake is actually annealing/drawing them a bit; the temp to bake isnt high enough to treat the metal and is actually softening it.

I use a 200WFN for the 10 mm, heat treated to 28 BHN dropped from the mold.
I use AA9, but dont recall the charge.

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I don't shoot the ammo, but something to be said about the faster something hits, the faster it slows down, stands to reason when velocity overcomes the strength of the alloy deforming the nose, larger is indeed a parachute, were those projectiles mono solids the 10mm would have had a much better showing I'd bet.


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Originally Posted by HawkI

Dropping them out of the bake is actually annealing/drawing them a bit; the temp to bake isnt high enough to treat the metal and is actually softening it.


Sorry Hawk, that is not correct. Water quenching after baking does harden the bullets. If you air cool after baking, it has approximately the same result as air cooling from the mold. 400°F is plenty hot enough to heat treat bullet alloys.

I can also say from experience that powder coating is nothing like graphite-coated bullets; powder coating is much tougher and handles higher speeds, while being a lot easier to apply.



As to the OP - I didn't watch the video but from your description, it doesn't sound too surprising to me. I don't know that I'd claim a porcelain (or whatever they are these days) dinner plate really simulates bone though since it's a lot harder.

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Originally Posted by RJM
A few surprises in this video... No surprise in terms of velocity that the 10mm beat out the .40 S&W when using the same bullet, in this case a 200 grain "hard cast" coated Underwood ammo...

The major surprise was near the end in the water jug test. The author put a dinner plate (maybe to simulate bone) in front of the jugs. The bullets only made it through 4 jugs after the plate, were deformed and lost about 25 grains of weight...

I've shot a lot of water testing ammo but have only tested a few hard cast .41 rounds because the results have been the same...just lots of jugs with holes in them and a bullet that looks like it could be reloaded...

Was wondering if any of you have tried either ammo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpYqz7EVZ-0


Bob


Those are not hard cast in my opinion, they aren't over about 12 brinel



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Originally Posted by Yondering
Originally Posted by HawkI

Dropping them out of the bake is actually annealing/drawing them a bit; the temp to bake isnt high enough to treat the metal and is actually softening it.


Sorry Hawk, that is not correct. Water quenching after baking does harden the bullets. If you air cool after baking, it has approximately the same result as air cooling from the mold. 400°F is plenty hot enough to heat treat bullet alloys.

I can also say from experience that powder coating is nothing like graphite-coated bullets; powder coating is much tougher and handles higher speeds, while being a lot easier to apply.



As to the OP - I didn't watch the video but from your description, it doesn't sound too surprising to me. I don't know that I'd claim a porcelain (or whatever they are these days) dinner plate really simulates bone though since it's a lot harder.


400 degrees for 20 minutes isnt going to achieve the hardness of 450 degrees nominal for an hour or even cadence dropped from a mould.

If you had a bullet at 22 BHN that was water dropped, re-heating in a paint bake application is going to give you a lower hardness. It will still be harder than the alloy air cooled.

Im betting the OP bullets are 15 BHN....

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Originally Posted by HawkI
Originally Posted by Yondering
Originally Posted by HawkI

Dropping them out of the bake is actually annealing/drawing them a bit; the temp to bake isnt high enough to treat the metal and is actually softening it.


Sorry Hawk, that is not correct. Water quenching after baking does harden the bullets. If you air cool after baking, it has approximately the same result as air cooling from the mold. 400°F is plenty hot enough to heat treat bullet alloys.

I can also say from experience that powder coating is nothing like graphite-coated bullets; powder coating is much tougher and handles higher speeds, while being a lot easier to apply.



As to the OP - I didn't watch the video but from your description, it doesn't sound too surprising to me. I don't know that I'd claim a porcelain (or whatever they are these days) dinner plate really simulates bone though since it's a lot harder.


400 degrees for 20 minutes isnt going to achieve the hardness of 450 degrees nominal for an hour or even cadence dropped from a mould.

If you had a bullet at 22 BHN that was water dropped, re-heating in a paint bake application is going to give you a lower hardness. It will still be harder than the alloy air cooled.

Im betting the OP bullets are 15 BHN....



At the speeds that they mushroomed I'm going with 10 to 12 max



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Thank you all for all your answers...

Quite a few years ago, I loaded up some Cast Performance .41/255s and shot them though 5 water jugs...after exiting the jugs, the bullet went through a 3/4" piece of concrete form plywood and the buried itself 1/2 way into another... The bullet lost the gas check and that was about it...

It would be interesting to put these bullets on a hardness tester to see what they run...

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I'm guessing about 15 also.

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I have a Glock 20 10mm, but find myself carrying my Glock 27 in ,40 S&W in the woods of southern Ohio more often than not. With a Lone Wolf replacement barrel. I load it with a round of CCI snake shot in the barrel, and 200 grain hard cast in the magazine. Either Double Tap or Buffalo Bore. The odd black bear may show up, but mostly I'm concerned about wild pigs or mean dogs that run loose.

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Originally Posted by RJM
Thank you all for all your answers...

Quite a few years ago, I loaded up some Cast Performance .41/255s and shot them though 5 water jugs...after exiting the jugs, the bullet went through a 3/4" piece of concrete form plywood and the buried itself 1/2 way into another... The bullet lost the gas check and that was about it...

It would be interesting to put these bullets on a hardness tester to see what they run...

Bob


I ran CPB stuff when I first got my hardness tester.

They were real consistent at 18 BHN.

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Originally Posted by HawkI
Originally Posted by Yondering
Originally Posted by HawkI

Dropping them out of the bake is actually annealing/drawing them a bit; the temp to bake isnt high enough to treat the metal and is actually softening it.


Sorry Hawk, that is not correct. Water quenching after baking does harden the bullets. If you air cool after baking, it has approximately the same result as air cooling from the mold. 400°F is plenty hot enough to heat treat bullet alloys.

I can also say from experience that powder coating is nothing like graphite-coated bullets; powder coating is much tougher and handles higher speeds, while being a lot easier to apply.



As to the OP - I didn't watch the video but from your description, it doesn't sound too surprising to me. I don't know that I'd claim a porcelain (or whatever they are these days) dinner plate really simulates bone though since it's a lot harder.


400 degrees for 20 minutes isnt going to achieve the hardness of 450 degrees nominal for an hour or even cadence dropped from a mould.

If you had a bullet at 22 BHN that was water dropped, re-heating in a paint bake application is going to give you a lower hardness. It will still be harder than the alloy air cooled.

Im betting the OP bullets are 15 BHN....


I've found through several moulds that the alloy doesn't reach the same hardness it had after initial quench has had a chance to fully harden. They don't go soft, but the difference ends up somewhere between an air-cool and a water drop. The bigger bullets like the 44 and 45 cal I notice the change in hardness more than for the smaller 35 cal ones. I don't mind for my applications.

Powder coating is VERY tough, and covers lots of sins. I have no leading running PB coated bullets out of various handguns at top pressures, and above. I run a 125gr powder coated Lee RNFP at 1450 fps out of a 9mm carbine with Longshot. That has to be getting near 40k psi. No leading, no coating in the barrel, and with a 4x scope, 2" at 100 for 5 is easy. There are advantages to the powder coating.


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It wont hit the same hardness (dont take my word for it, get a tester) heat treated after a paint bake over quenching from the mold or oven treating. The closer to slump or a longer "soak"at near slump will create higher BHN numbers.

Dropping them coated from a 400 degree paint bake for 20 mins is probably going to make WW metal be around 15 BHN. Obviously it varies with alloy composition.

Powder coated bullets are an "easy" button, and like you said, cover a lot of sins.

But if I had a reason to do so, I havent found it yet.

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Hawk, you are correct, a powder coated, water quenched bullet won't match a water quenched bullet, it will always be softer but I've quit dropping anything in water after testing with this powder coating! I don't know where the limit is for sure, but I'll never go back to lubed bullets.
I will say this, I still like the looks of a lubed bullet better but a powder coated bullet is all I'll ever use now.

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Most of my reasons for heat treating is for either accuracy or terminal performance. Shallow land rifling also gets the nod.

My general use stuff is my alloy mix Ive used for years that is 11 BHN air cooled. Dropped from the mould its 28. I usually leave a two week age.

From what I see posted on the powder coated loads, especially with rifles, accuracy is hollow at best.

I think it has its merits if leading is an issue or one wants to eliminate that variable altogether, but leading always has a cause thats never been difficult to figure out so far here.

I think the major item here is that factory ammo and projectiles are often easy buttons that arent always the things they are advertised or appear to be.

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And I've also never understood the concern over some leading. Everything is going to lead a little, but I sure as heck am not worried about it. It's like being worried about getting [bleep] on your starfish.

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Originally Posted by HawkI
It wont hit the same hardness (dont take my word for it, get a tester) heat treated after a paint bake over quenching from the mold or oven treating. The closer to slump or a longer "soak"at near slump will create higher BHN numbers.

Dropping them coated from a 400 degree paint bake for 20 mins is probably going to make WW metal be around 15 BHN. Obviously it varies with alloy composition.

Powder coated bullets are an "easy" button, and like you said, cover a lot of sins.

But if I had a reason to do so, I havent found it yet.


You're doing a lot of guessing about heat treating coated bullets, but I have the luxury of speaking from personal experience.

Of course a bullet quenched from 400° doesn't reach the hardness it would from 450°, but if that's the goal, turn the oven up to 450. It doesn't matter how long the bullet is in the oven as long as it gets up to temp, or what kind of oven it is (and we're not using "paint bake ovens", lol); it's the quench that hardens the alloy, not time at temp.

It's always interesting to watch you expound on powder coating though.


Originally Posted by RemModel8
And I've also never understood the concern over some leading. Everything is going to lead a little, but I sure as heck am not worried about it. It's like being worried about getting [bleep] on your starfish.


The mistake there is assuming everything is going to lead a little; generally true with lubed bullets, at least a mild lead wash, but not so with coated. A good coating (or paper patch for that matter, they are more similar than different) can prevent any leading, to the point you can fire thousands and thousands of rounds through a barrel without needing to even inspect it for leading or ever pass a brush through it. A complete lack of any leading is a good thing for your own health and those around you, and can contribute to better accuracy that doesn't drop off like when a barrel with lubed bullets starts to lead up.

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