Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 35 Whelen with modern powder and bullets...?

Yeah those two grains of powder will make all the difference! I know nowadays it is popular to say a 6.5 Creed will kill just as well and as fast as anything bigger but my experience seems to show the 35 Whelen has an edge even on the 30-06. The 250 grain bullets really seem to do the job and quickly. I went 35 Whelen over the 338-06 because at the time there were a lot of round nosed bullets to play with and I have to say they were a are effective. Have one box left of the Hornady 250 gr. RN's and some 225 gr. Woodleigh weldcores left and I better get to using them before I get to old to do so.

I know I'm a little late here but have some input. For 30 years I carried a 358 Norma Magnum most of the time except for fall brown bear when they were feet away as opposed to yards. My bro in-law took his brown bear with it and hounded me out of it,,yes I did OK $. About a week later I sent my 30 Gibbs to JES and he tranformed it to a 35 Gibbs. It also came back a tackdriver!!! The 20" Norma Mag was 2500fps with 280 Swift Av Frames and 2675 with 250's, the 24" Gibbs has bettered both of these and I guessing more is possible if I cared to,, my powders are RL-15 and H-4895.

If it's any consolation Waterrat, I'm allways late to the party.
I bought my M77RS Ruger 30 plus years a go in 35 Whelen. the dealer had 2 dozen of them he let me pick the wood I wanted,only looked 4 or as recall.I wanted good straight grain thru the wrist for strength and stability. He was selling new Remington factory 250 gr loads at $7 a box ,should have bought a case. I put a 2.5 x 8 Vari X lll on it and never had a problem. Long story short 56 gr 4320 gave me 2550 fps and good groups with the 225 NPT. 2 elk and some deer later the Whelen rep is on the money for me. That load works in my gun ,it is 1 grain over the max in the Nosler reloading guide but it works. Somewhere between Nosler #5 and Nosler # 6 the 300 fps increase max velocity with 225 gr bullets happened. Simply amazing.. Wasn't until the interval between Nosler#6 and Nosler# 7 that the top loads for 250 gr bullets went up 100-125 fps. Some barrel difference for sure as the test barrel for #5 & #6 was a 24" Lilja while they used a 26" Pac Nor for data in #7 & #8. Things change all the time my Whelen still is good and can allways rely on it to hold up it's end with a properly placed shot as well as more recoil than you really need. That Ruger don't weigh much and a joy to carry which a guy does a lot more than pull the trigger if you bought it to hunt. One other thing, just like Elmer Keith said " you can eat right up to the hole" I've found to be true it doesn't blow the hell out of the meat. Be awhile before I let go of mine.MB

Hard to say about the killing, but I can share my experience with the same bullet and Varget vs. 2000-MR

225 NAB, 60 gr Varget, CCI 200, 3.385 OAL. Shot 0.69" at 2706 fps
225 NAB, 69 gr 2000-MR, CCI 200, 3.385 OAL. Shot 0.68" at 2828 fps

This is in the same rifle I posted above, 35 WAI, 23" barrel, long throat, though both these loads are below published max for the basic Whelen.

Varget may be more temperature stable, I've yet to see much data on the stability of 2000-MR, and living in Tucson, it's hard to generate my own data on that subject.
I can say that when I changed out the thin hard pad on my rifle (which only weighs 7.6 pounds) to a Decelerator, it made a world of difference shooting from the bench. It was pretty brutal before and much more pleasant now.
Cheers,
Rex

"My old dad used my rifle to finish off a 6x6 he'd wounded with his 338-06. It was almost dark and the bull was ambling straight away probably 100 yds. or so distance. Dad hit him squarely in the tater hole/anus with a TSX, the bull took a few more steps and flopped over, dead. The bullet traveled from the anus to the front of the right shoulder, under the skin, where we found it when skinning the bull-"

I'm trying to figure out in what scenario a .338-06 is not suitable to finish a job but a Whelen is?

Maybe just bad luck with the .338-06? I think all the .338s in our camp were jinxed or whatever because now nobody hunts with one of any flavor. There were several unexplainable shots where elk were not recovered. Must have been bad karma?

It's gotta be. I use Speer 270s in my 9.3x62 and it's quite the hammer. The .35 Whelen with 250s going that fast has got to be a killer. I like it.

I have a half dozen friends here in Alaska that make gut piles every year with a .35 Whelen. They are mostly moose, caribou and occasionally bear hunters and most of the shots are one shot kills. Their bullet of choice is the 225 grain Accubond and they all load their own ammo. They are good hunters and most that hunt Alaska know the caribou normally offers a longer shot then moose do, but not always.

Last fall one of them took a very respectable caribou at about 450 yards with one shot. This same guy has a video on his phone where he is hitting the nose on the ram at the local range, the distance is 800 yards. He has a tricked out Rem. 700 with a Lilja barrel and a large Burris Eliminator scope. His longest shot on a caribou is about 800 yards and he has shot more caribou then any one I know, mainly because of his remote job and access to a herd with a liberal season and bag limit and an on sight freezer and being allowed to fly meat out when rotating off shift.

Any one that thinks the Whelen can not reach out and touch a critter past 400 yards needs to spend some time with my friends. I am a user and fan of the .338 Winny and 338-06, but I also believe the .35 bore is right there at the diameter that makes and impression on big game, more so then the 30-06 and possibly my beloved .338 bore.

The .35 Whelen is what made me desire and old style lever action rifle offering .35 Whelen ballistics. So I now have a .348 Ackley Improved being made up on a Mirkoru Win. Mod. 71. It and H4350 hopefully will push the 250 grain bonded Alaska Bullet Works bullets close to 2,500 fps mv.

The .35 Whelen is one of the best caliber choices one could make for Alaska's big game. At my age I will continue with my custom Mod. 70 "Classic Stainless .338, but if I was starting over and younger, it might be a .35 Whelen.

Precious Liberty
I use the Speer load of cfe223 for the 250grain Speer hotcore and get a chronoed 2,700 fps
With the 225 grain accubonds and noslers load of 60.5 grains of Varget I get a chronoed 2,800fps
With a 225 grain Woodleigh PPSP and 64 grains of cfe223 I get a chronoed 2,950fps
My rifle is a Stevens 200 rebarreled with a 25inch barrel 1 in 12 twist.
Cases Remington
Primer Remington standard large rifle
I have used CFE223 in temps from minus 4 to 40 degrees Celsius and have not had any problems with temperatures stability. Standard large rifle primers set the ball powder cfe223 off with out issues.
I have found CFE223 gives me the highest velocity of any powder available in Australia. It's a crying shame that it will no longer be imported into OZ, fortunately I laid in a good supply.
Bob Nelson

35 Whelen Nut.
The reason for the increased velocity ISN'T increased pressure. It was explained to me that the older powders have a parabolic pressure curve where as the newer powders like CFE223 and Hogdon superformance have a pressure curve that doesn't peak as hit but maintains the pressure over a longer period of time. This is what enables the newer powders to give a higher velocity at a similar or lower pressure.
If it wasn't safe I don't think powder companies would load it.
A 250 grain hornaday roundnose at 2,700fps puts a lot of hurt on an Oryx

My rifle must be a freak in the accuracy department as 5 different shooters using a variety of bullets ( 2x225gn accubonds, 2x225gn Woodleigh PPSP, 2x250 gn hornaday roundnose, 2x 250 gn hornaday spire points and 2x250gn Speer hotcores)) into a 1.2 inch group at 100 yards. My PH wanted to buy the rifle.

It's a plain Jane Stevens 200/ Savage 110 with a 25 inch MAB stainless barrel 1in 12 twist, rifle Basix trigger Leopold mounts and Zies terra scope.
The 225 grain accubonds and woodleigh projectiles at 2,800 to 2,950 fps give between 4,000 and 4,300 for of muzzle energy.
Yes these velocities seen high but with the newer powders available now they are SAFELY available.

If a 225 grain TSX @@2700 fps can be called a +P load what do I call a,225 grain woodleigh PPSP @292950 fps chronoed and developing 4,300+ fpe of muzzle energy. This is safely achieved in my standard Whelen
The Whelen is very underrated and as said Remington castrated it at birth giving it less than 50,000 psi. If'n the 25 ought six, 270 and 280 can't be loaded to 60,000 psi safely why can't the ought 6 and Whelen be give a set after balls as well. This can be Dane SAFELY with some of the newer powders.
Bob Nelson.

You're absolutely right Bob. SAAMI pressure limit for the .35 Whelen is 62K PSI.
Happily some of the latest loading manuals feature data that gets into that neighborhood, Speer and Sierra in particular. 250 gr at 2700 and 225 gr at 2900. That's some thump right there.

Cheers,
Rex

Precious Liberty
All that may be true and correct with the powders that were available at the time of testing by SAAMI BUT Duluth the advent of newer and better powders surely this is now not as current as it could be.

SAAMI lists the 200 grain bullet at 2,660 fps for max pressure loads.
If this is correct how do Hornaday get 2,900 fps for the same weights and still remain within the saami pressure constraints.

I don't think companies like Speer, Nosler, Barnes or Hornaday would list way over pressure loads to obtain the velocities they get. If'n they were dangerous they would have had their respective arses sued off by now.
I'm not saying saami is wrong just needs revision.
Yes trying to convert cup to psi is a minefield frought with danger. Choose one or the other not both.
Just my 2cents worth from a humble Australian reloader.
Bob Nelson

Start with 4350 and the 250's should find a good happy medium of velociy and accuracy.

35W does all that I ever asked of my Norma and then some.

HORNADAY?

I've had two Brown-Whelens both 23 in. barrels.Wore out the first barrel doing load development and have tried every load combination under the sun including the new wonder powders.Best velocity with 250 gr. Bullets was 2620 fps,this out a Lilja SS tube.
The Brown-Whelen is a Gibbs type improved version that theoretically should do better than a standard Whelen,mine obviously hasn't gotten the message.

Funny post, I would have quit at around 200 rounds is I couldn't find a load that would shoot in a Whelen. Mine shoots everything very well except the 200 gr.RN's made for the 35 Remington. Even those will put three under 2 inches every time. Wore out a barrel would have to been more than 3 thousand rounds!

Just to be specific sir - Have you tried Power Pro 2000-MR? I'm not sure which other powders are the "wonder powder" in the Whelen, but that one is.
I get 2650 with the 250 Partition in my 23" barreled 35 WAI almost two grains under Speer's published max for the 250 HotCor in the basic Whelen (which gave them 2700 FPS in the basic Whelen.)
And PP Varmint gets me 2975 FPS with the 200 TTSX. These are not hot-rodded, over pressure loads. The first one is actually very gentle on the brass (not so much on my shoulder though, mainly why I stopped at 2650 FPS!)
Cheers,
Rex

Got a long winded spiel so here it goes.
My affair with the .35BW dates back quite a few years,before factory .35 Whelen brass was made, had to use .30-06 brass neck up to about .40 cal. create false shoulder and fireform.First rifle was a commercial FN 98 that was originally a .270,screwed on a Brownells threade short chambered barrel in .35 cal. I don't remember if it was a 12 or 14 twist.This was a good combination and fed very well with no work to the rails,it has become my all-time favorite caliber.Have worked primarily with 250 gr. bullet but have shot 225's as well 275 and 300 gr. Hawks.Initially left the barrel at 26" but later cut it to 22",this lost about 100 fps velocity.I then went on an involved quest to get 2700fps with the 250 gr. bullets,as you'll see.
Powders tried were IMR 3031,4320,4064,4007,4451,4350.RL 12,15,16,17,19.VV 140,540,550,560.Hodgdon 380,4350,Varget,Superformance,BLC-2,414.BG4351.Norma 202,204.Winchester 748,760.AA 2520,Big Game. The newer powders that are really supposed to be the ticket such as 8208,100V,2000Mr were tried.All this in a maniacal effort to get to the magical 2700 fps 250 gr. bullet load.H4350 got to 2620fps but that has been tops.
My load development process consists of increasing one grain at a time till I get unmistakable high pressure indication back off 3 grains, then chronograph.If velocity is good then test for accurracy.I'm no big stickler for accuracy,if it shoots into an inch and a half good.
As you can see this barrel digested quite a few rounds and you must include fireform loads.I was always looking to simplify the fireform process and wound up trying a fast pistol powder with some kind of filler.This method seemed to work but actually resulted in a ringed chamber and made extraction difficult so this led to scrapping this barrel and going to plan B.
Next up was a push feed WIN. 70 in .243,not a big trick to remove the magazine spacer and rebarrel in .35 BW with a Lilja SS tube which was finished at 23" length,also believe this was a 12 twist.
Oddly enough,and I do mean oddly,only shot one big game animal with the first rifle and that was a Dall Sheep! Weird ha!
As a supposedly hairy chested hunter were you ever chided for not having a go at sheep hunting? I was pretty sure I wasn't a sheep hunter and set out to prove it.
Business obligations had interfered with a try at sheep so I contacted Rod Hardy in the Yukon and told him if he ever had an open warm fall to give me a call and one year he did.Met up with Rod in Whitehorse and off we went in the SuperCub to a remote spot that had sheep close by.Only thing is the rams had moved a couple mountains over but off we went.Blundered into a bunch of rams down low,looked them over and found a suitable ram and proceeded to shoot over him.Took another couple days but did manage to collect a nice ram.I used the 225 gr. Barnes X loaded to 2700 fps on that go around because grizzly was on the wanted list,didn't see one.
What a hell of an adventure it has all been and I'm sure I've left out quite a bit of stuff! Hope I haven't bored you too bad!

One thing id SAMMI pressures are M.A,P., Maximum Allowable Pressures which when you think about really doesn't mead squat. All that say is when a new run (lot) of ammo is run and tested, no pressure can be above the M.A.P., nothing more nothing less. I've run fresh Winchester 180 gr. Power Points over a chronograph that barely get past 2600 FPS. Advertised velocity is 2700 FPS. Just about all, if not all factory ammo is not loaded to reach advertised velocity. It's their fudge factor to make sure that don't go over M.A.P. About the only exception might be the introduction of a new gee whiz bang cartridge and when it takes hold velocity seems to drop off.
On calling a 700 FPS 225 gr. TSX load +p irritates you, the call those new powder load like the 2700 FPS 250 gr. loads +P+ and just enjoy the improvement.
Paul B.