Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors Wednesday trivia on 250-3000

So.. who developed the 250-3000, and when did it go on sale?

Referring to the cartridge, but the date works for the rifle as well since the cartridge and the 1899 model 250-3000 went on sale at the same time.

A) Charles Newton
B) 1914 but 1915 until the rifles really started showing up.

That's how I've understood it. Have you uncovered new evidence, Holmes?

I think Harvey Donaldson claimed some input into the design. I think I have Harvey's book around somewhere, If I can find it, I'll check what he said.

I guess in a way you could say Savage developed the name. Newton didn't intend it to have an 87gr bullet at 3000fps, so Savage is responsible for the 250-3000.

HD claimed to have recommended that Savage develop a 0.257" bore cartridge for their Model 1899 bases on a shortened 30-06 case.

HD also claimed to have invented the 22-250 using a 0.228" barrel blank that he got from someone as Savage. HD lived in Little Falls, NY, close to both Remington at Ilion and Savage in Utica.

Both of his claims appear in print in his book, "Yours Truly".

Old Harvey claimed credit for a lot of stuff.

That's the generally accepted answers..

Bailey Brower says the model 1915 pistol was introduced in February, 1915.

The model 250-3000 first shows up in catalog #55. I don't have the complete catalog, but I'm pretty sure the model 1915 pistol isn't in it. Maybe somebody who has a #55 catalog can check? Catalog #55 first came out no later than the end of February, 1915 because I've seen a jobber's list for it with Feb. 25th, 1915 date. The model 1915 pistol isn't listed on the jobber's list, just the 1907.

Both the 250-3000 and the model 1915 pistol are in catalog #57. No idea when it came out.

And maybe some info has come into my hands.. one should never quit looking for new data.

Keep throwing out what you know. I don't remember hearing the Harvey Donaldson stuff.

I met him while I was a pre-teen spotter on a couple of my Father's woodchuck safaris in Western VT and in the Susquehanna River valley in NY back in the mid-1960's. My Father was a hard man who could sense BS like a shark senses blood in the water and he thought that HD was the real deal.

That's good to know. Harvey was one of those old guys I would love to meet at the gun range in the sky some day. It's just that he always jumped up and said he did it first so many times that I had to wonder how much of a BS'er he was. Ya gotta admire a guy who drove Corvettes into his 80's.

I see Harvey Donaldson also claimed credit for telling Savage how to design their 70gr 22HP bullet. Must have been on staff at Savage Arms.

I think that HD saw himself as the mid-Mohawk River Valley expert on all things shooting related. That said, he had a lot more documented accomplishments in the shooting sports venue during the first half of the 20th Century than most people can claim.

If all he ever contributed was the .219 Donaldson Wasp that would be enough!

That's true, the man was a genius. But was he involved directly with Savage? Or did he write articles saying he did something and it worked well, and then if the manufacturer did something similar he though he was the source?

I really don't know. Savage worked with gun writers back in the day, it could be all true.

Looks like he was a Southpaw as well... hmmm.

Harvey Donaldson story...

He claimed to have received the 0.228" bore barrel blank that he used to make a 228-250 from someone at Savage who was in a position of some authority. HD published the name of that person in his book, but I don't remember it off the top of my head.

Thanks for the link. I hadn't heard of him before. Interesting fellow.

Okay.. here's what I found. To me, this reads as though Charles Newton proposed a high power 25 caliber cartridge to Savage.

But the cartridge dimensions and pressure wouldn't work in a 1914 era Savage 1899 without redesigning the receiver (think of the 1950's changes for 243/308/358).

So Charles Nelson, head engineer I believe and with his name on a ton of Savage patents from that time, created the final 250-3000 cartridge specifications to fit and work inside the existing 1899.

It's from an April, 1915 issue of Rod and Gun Canade, written by Edward C. Crossman, who said he'd been working with Savage since March, 1914 in test firing the new cartridge and in taking it hunting.

The article says the 250-3000 cartridge and rifle was released on February 24th, 1915.

As detailed as this is... I'm leaning towards believing it.

So in my mind.. Charles Newton is the father of the 250-3000, but not the person who actually developed it. That would be Charles Nelson.

I'm wondering if this isn't how the 300 Savage came about in 1921 also. Charles Newton gives something to Savage arms for the 300 Savage, and Charles Nelson finishes it. On the 300 Savage there were always rumors that it was developed by an "unnamed engineer" at Savage Arms.

Great thread Rory!

Thanks, Rory, for the insight.

Little by little we learn.

Like I said, Savage

Except it looks like Savage developed both the cartridge and the name. Newton either just had the concept, or his initial proposed cartridge was too large for the 1899.

So could be said developed the 35-300 but never made production?

That must be catalog 55A which I have never seen a copy of. Catalog # 55 does not have the 250-3000, available calibers were 25-35, 30-30, 303, 32-40 and 38-55 in most models and 25-35, 30-30, 303 and 22HP in the featherweight.

No model 1915 pistol but they have the 1907 pistol with the standard cocking piece listed as the hammerless automatic and the early optional heavy spur cocking piece listed as the hammer automatic. Catalog #57 does not list the optional spur 'hammer' but has the true hammerless 1915. I also has a note: "Model 1907 furnished only in 32 caliber".

Interesting. Thank you, Gene.

The first inside page just says Catalog 55, the 22 High Power is on page 6, the model 250-3000 is on page 7. Fancy grades start on page 8.

Why is it known as 55A? Is that printed on it somewhere, or is it a name for a second variation?

I don't have the pistol pages. But I think I might be able to get them if it's necessary.

This might clear things up.. if there was a catalog 55 without the 250-3000, that would be 1914. 55A would be late February, 1915. 57 would be.. later sometime 1915.

very interesting

Great read thanks everyone!!

So after Gene helped with catalog deep diving, we found there are two versions of catalog #55 as he and Rick thought. The early one does not list the 250-3000, and probably dates to 1914. It's quickly identifiable by the fact it doesn't have the model 250-3000 in it on page 7.

Also it doesn't list Hamburg as a place of operations for Savage on the inside cover page.

The 2nd variation has the 250-3000 inserted on page 7, and then they tighten up the named grades and probably rimfires on pages 8-10 to keep the total page count identical. And it lists Hamburg on the inside cover page. This one probably dates to February, 1915.