Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire General Milley calls the Confederacy treasonous and traitors

Secession was certainly legal though perhaps not desirable.

The Constitution was originally said to be in effect after a certain number of the original states ratified it. At least two of those states--New York and New Jersey ratified it conditionally, the condition being they would be allowed to secede at any time.

After the war, Jefferson Davis was held without being charged with anything for four years. Or tried for anything. He wanted to be tried for treason. The federal government didn't want to try him. Both he and they felt he would be acquitted based on the (fairly obvious) provision in the Constitution that a state could do anything not prohibited to it. And secession was not prohibited or even mentioned.

That said, a lot had changed between 1789 and 1861. Lincoln realized--correctly--that letting the South secede would lead to the destruction of the United States. What if New England wanted to secede sometime? What if Texas seceded from the Confederacy? In 1860 California came close to seceding (not to join the Confederacy but to be independent from both North and South).

Lincoln realized that letting the South go would lead to the piecemeal conquest of the various states by foreign powers. He was willing to break the law to save the union, as he himself said.

You can accuse the South of many things but treason is not among them.

Yes. The treasonous south.


Im all for the few southern states to be kicked out of the US.. enough taxpayer money gets funneled into those backwards states.

Might want to research your facts a little better. All the High Paying Jobs have fled or in the process of fleeing the North. These Backward states handled the Covid response better then your stupid Northern states without exception.

Endless caravans from NY escaping to the south is priceless.

home being Northern Virginia, when I was young, the number of remenents of the Civil War were left all over the place.. in almost every grove of trees, were what was left of artillery positions from 1861 to 1865....finding musket balls was like finding pennies in a parking lot... even then, you could tell if they were built by Confederate Troops or Northern Troops, based on what direction was where the most damage was... if it was facing north bound, it was a Confederate Emplacement.. if it was facing South it was a Northern Emplacement...

Growing up around that you understood what the south fought for... defense of homeland...invaded because Washington was right across the Potomac River.. people fought to defend their home land, out numbered heavily.. yet it held the Union back for 4 years of heavy fighting... the remains, you could tell it wasn't about Slavery... because of the number of men that left their homes, families, farms and loved ones to fight for their state....and none of these people owned slaves.. it wasn't slave owners out there putting their asses on the line...for the rich folks and their money....helll there never was many plantations in Northern VA ever...

these men were not traitors to their nation.. they were loyal to their home state...and the Union invaded it...and started destroying everything in Arlington and Fairfax Counties.. until they were stopped in Prince William at a little place called Manassas...

when I was a kid growing up and living in Manassas, at the Centennial in 1961 and 1962, its population was about 2500 people... exactly what it had been 100 yrs earlier in 1861 and 1862.. that is why so much damage and remains of the Civil War was quite obvious 100 years after the fact....

it was the Union who were traitors to the Southern States....

Nope. A very small demographic of black slaveholsers existed. More importantly, they *did* discriminate concerning who *could* be enslaved.

"The Constitution was originally said to be in effect after a certain number of the original states ratified it. At least two of those states--New York and New Jersey ratified it conditionally, the condition being they would be allowed to secede at any time."

This is entirely false. No such thing as conditional ratification. The document is ratified as passed or not. No middle.

Also, the Irish could not be sold as property. If there's a lower form of life than being property, that's news to me.

Plantation America Bookstore
Plantation America is an exploration of the early history of the United States of America, which were not often called colonies at the time, but plantations. They were plantations of unfree people from Britain, Germany, and elsewhere in Europe. These slaves and servants were bought and sold at auction, beaten and cruelly used, and then their history was erased. James LaFond is working to restore a part of it here.

The reading order perhaps depends on your motive for reading it. Assuming a desire for general learning, I will make a reading order list with an exception out to the side:

#1 [volume 2]: American in Chains places Caucasian slavery in context with a chronology of slave ages and slavery events going back to the middle ages, and numerous reviews of African American slavery narratives. This is very accessible to someone who has not read a lot of history. This is the first volume an African American should read.

#2 [volume 3]: Into Wicked Company is the shortest and easiest to read and I would recommend it to people who find reading a burden. It provides more context for Stillbirth of a Nation and would be the first volume I'd give to a teenager or person who likes verse.

#3 [volume 1]: Stillbirth of a nation is the saga of thrice abducted Peter Williamson, and would be my first choice for a military man to read.

#4 [volume 4]: A Bright Shining lie at Dusk was an attempt to bundle a mess of errata on Plantation America and put it out as a companion to readers of volumes 1-3 in an attempt to wash my hands of the series. If you buy Crackerboy or The Greatest Lie Ever Sold on the site I'll send this to you for free. If you ask for it, I'll send it. I'm emailing you a copy. It is just a companion to the better-formed volumes.

#5 [volume 7] The Lies That Bind Us lays out the foundations for Plantation America via a study of The Magna Carta and is otherwise a mass of support material like A Bright Shining Lie at Dusk.

#6 [Volume 9] The Greatest Lie Ever Sold makes the case that American history is a lie stemming from the abdication of the English king at the signing of the Magna Carta. It is the op-ed companion to the annoatted litany of Crackerboy.

#7 [Volume 8]: Cracker-Boy is the one volume that needs to be read by anyone who would argue against the narrative mainstream in America which claims that only Africans can be owned as human property. If you only buy one Plantation America book, this is the one.

#8 [Volume 5] So Her Master May Have Her Again is the first read I recommend for women, looking at the specific economics of being a runaway broad in Plantation America.

#9 [volume 6] So His Master May Have Him Again is the one book you should give to a working class liberal ghost man and is all about the economics of being a broke-ass cracker-boy in the land of the wee and the home of the knave.
Note: Paleface, the white Indian history, will not be written. Rather each of the following books will have a paleface section on white Indians, who were very often escaped slaves.

#10: [volume 10]: American Spartacus is about the over 400 acts of slave revolt I have documented, along with various reviews of primary sources sketching the conditions and histories of some non-slave uprisings in the United States and earlier Plantations. It will be 2 volumes at about 1,000 pages and will probably replace Cracker-Boy as the best single source.

#11 [volume 11]: The Thirteenth Tribe is about religiously sanctioned slavery in America and focuses on Pennsylvania and New England the myth of the Christian abolitionist movement and the reality that every slave in America, no matter his race, was held in bondage according to Judeo-Christian law. This will be the most heavily weighted volume towards piracy and the white Indian situation.

#12 [volume 12] Plantation America: A history Denied will serve as an overview, an index, a list of corrections to mistakes in earlier volumes and will take the story of the runaway white boy into the realm of the mixed race runaway, as virtually every extant slave narrative by a runaway African American" was the story of a man who was at least half European.

Fiction: the novel Sold is complete and the sequel Bound is just started. I recommend Sold to anyone at any time in tis reading who would like more immediate texture and to anyone who just can't get through a history text. It is the real story of Thomas Hellier and two fictional composite characters patterned on Peter Williamson and other targets of the soul-drivers who staffed Plantation America in its misery with the toiling souls of the doomed and forgotten.

it aint what you know, but what you know that aint so.



if you mean that eventually laws were passed prohibiting blacks from owning white slaves, sure, you're correct. but that implies a littel something most folk have been trained to overlook...



news: irish were sold as property in north america. usually at 1/4 the cost of black slaves for several reasons.

The irish were sold as property in n america. As were teh scottish and the english and some other euros. from the tip of florida up through canada. Roughly 2X the number of whites were sold into slavery relative to blacks until the end of the cw.

you have to seek out primary source material as the ruling class has deemed factual history unhelpful and has instead imposed new & improved & helpful (to the ruling class) narrative. to include myths such as blacks were the only sorts held in bondage/as chattel in na.

james lafond, though lacking in academic sophistication, has accumulated a rather large trove of primary source material. if you have an interest in this topic, lafond has written about 10 books on it of various structure: primary source narrative with commentary, nigh stright-up primary source material published in a book for the first time, Q&A, etc.

https://jameslafond.blogspot.com/p/plantation-america-bookstore.html



http://jameslafond.com/article.php?id=12030

"The Constitution was originally said to be in effect after a certain number of the original states ratified it. At least two of those states--New York and New Jersey ratified it conditionally, the condition being they would be allowed to secede at any time."

This is entirely false. No such thing as conditional ratification. The document is ratified as passed or not. No middle.

Also, the Irish could not be sold as property. If there's a lower form of life than being property, that's news to me.

Sorry, but this is totally bogus. There is a huge body of actual scholarship about the slave trade and this ain't part of it. Were whites indentured in America before slavery became entrenched? Absolutely. Were they frequently treated poorly or scammed? Yes. Were they legally and culturally distinguished from slaves. Absolutely. Were Irishmen sold as slaves in North America and owned as chattel? Hard no. Think it through: if you're willing to cross the color line and enslave the Irish, the English have no reason to make the triangle trade a triangle. You'd just ship the Irish to the New World in chains and seize the land. But they didn't. Because they weren't interested in setting up a slippery slope of which white people weren't above slavery.

That's not to say the Irish were treated well, but crummy urban conditions and enslavement aren't remotely the same thing.

There were black slaveholders up to the point of emancipation in places like Louisiana and many Indian tribes also adopted race-based slavery to become "whiter" in southern society. None of this is really new...

Preface: yes, I realize the response this will generate and no, I'm not from California.

1. The Articles of Confederstion created an intentionally weak central government that had very little coercive power over member states (no taxes, etc.). This was by design after waging an improbably successful revolt against a tyrannical government.

2. The original Constitution of 1789 -- which had no 10th amendment -- specifically states that it continued the AOC with noted changes/upgrades. The continuation language is critically important because the full title of the AOC was actually "The Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union."

3. You know what perpetual means, and so did the Founders. Patrick Henry specifically argues against ratification -- as did other prominent anti-Federalists (Warren, etc.) *because* once in, a state could not legally leave the Union. The Bill of Rights was added later to get ratification over the hump, but the 9th and 10th amendments did not supersede the original frame of the Union itself or its central government. Again: anti-Federalists knew this and didn't like it.

4. The American Revolution constituted high treason and its leaders knew that. What do you think "give me liberty or give me death" means? Win = freedom. Lose = gallows. All rebellions from a mother country are treasonous until they're successful, then to the rebels, their history is written as a revolution. The Brits teach the Am Rev as a *civil war* to this day.

5. If you go back and actually read secessionist sources and responses to it from the 1830s, 40s, and 50s, you'll see that the vast majority of southerners reject secession specifically because it meant violating the Constitution, which they viewed as a sacred legacy passes down from other *southerners* like GW, Madison, etc. And then when the war begins, Confederate authors put out tons of material justifying the rebellion as the Am Rev 2.0 and cloaking themselves in Revolutionary era rhetoric, but in that writing, they recognize that the Declaration amounted to high treason -- and simply believed that some treason was justified.

6. If you genuinely think Lincoln wanted the war, you've never actually read a word he wrote and there's nothing I can do for you. After federal property was occupied, he sat still to let things fizzle out as they always had since 1832 (Nullification issues).

7. You can make the case that rank and file men enlisted in the CSA army to protect home and hearth but it's much harder to extend that to CSA brass when virtually all of them had previously taken a federal oath and then went back on it. Lee *agonized* over what to do when offered command from Scott because he understood this in real-time. Many of the other West Pointers wrote about similar dilemmas.

8.Long story short: *after* the war a lot of work was done to remove treaaon from the act secession, but at the time, men undersrood what they were doing and did it anyway because they believed that such a course was justified. So, it's pretty ironic how many of you are lauding the creation of the Confederacy as a justified rebellion but don't believe it justified enough to be worth risking treason.

I've got my fire-proof suit on now...

" ... Endless caravans from NY escaping to the south is priceless.