Home Forums Reloading Handgun Reloading 38 Special plinking/defense load.

What would be a good standard load, not +P for plinking and self defense?

Jacketed or cast?

3" J frame.

I don't have anything that is not +P, but I do have some that you might try with less powder. Mine are 6.3 grs. of Ramshot Silhouette w/ 110 gr. Barnes Tac-X. Or 6.6 grs. of Ramshot True Blue.
Ramshot says 6.3 grs. of True Blue w/ 110 gr. Hdy. XTP generates 15, 687 psi. My 3" Smith 60 throws 2 inch groups for five, off hand, @ 15 yds. for me with my loads. E

Two desires at the opposite ends of the spectrum. Kind of like asking for a sports car that can also tow a 30' travel trailer.

I look at a plinking load as primarily being inexpensive to load with low recoil. This typically is a lead round nose bullet or maybe a semi wadcutter with a lower powder charge. Not something overly desired for self defense but works well punching paper, knocking over cans, or throwing up dust.

A self defense load would not spare cost as a primary objective but it would pack more velocity and recoil than something for plinking. I prefer a 158 gr lead hollow point semi wadcutter pushed as fast as I can go as that is most likely to give the penetration needed for this use. If the bullet expands along the way is a bonus provided it does not detract from adequate penetration.

I have used jacketed bullets in 4" and longer barreled guns but they have been somewhat inconsistent in terminal performance which I feel negates their higher cost. I do have them in defensive loadings but they are not my first choice most of the time. The jacketed bullets do have some advantages but not necessarily in actual use, in my opinion.

Not +P... 3" steel J-frame. .. plinking AND self defense? A 158 gr. cast SWC at 850 fps, about 5 grs. of Unique should do it.

The 158 LSWCHP would be fine for both. Could load up mild for targets and have hotter loads for carry.

I have a mold for 158SWCHP bullets. Even out of a 2” they’ll rivet or expand a little when cast out of wheel weights and pushed with 5gr Unique. Pushed harder out of a 6.5” barrel N frame with more Unique behind them they’ll expand pretty violently and often shear the expanded nose off leaving the solid base to penetrate further. Main issue with them for me is they’re time consuming to make in a single cavity mold.

For one load for both uses, I would suggest a 148 grain Double Ended Coated Lead Wadcutter under 3.3 grains of Titegroup. This load in my M-36 J frame 2" barrel gets me 754 FPS and 187 Ft. Lbs. energy. Recoil is mild. With your 3" barrel you will get a little more velocity. For self defense, you really may want to up that a little unless over penetration is a concern. Several companies manufacture these bullets, such as Missouri Bullet Company. ACME may also have them, not sure. I know that Bayou does not.

I know you are asking for one bullet/load for both uses, but for defensive purposes, not +P, I would use a 130 grain HST jacketed hollow point wadcutter under 3.6 grains Titegroup. The hollow point cavity is huge. Midway currently has them as blems. I don't know of any other source. They are made by or for Federal for their HST ammo. In my 2" barrel, I get 803 FPS and 186 Ft. Lbs. energy. However, that bad boy usually expands to about .65 - .70 caliber and with 10 - 12 inch penetration, also with mild recoil. They are quite accurate out to 7 yards. That is as far as I have tried them, however I have heard that they are reasonably accurate out to 50 feet. This limitation is due to the huge hollow point cavity. That is what I now carry in my snubbies.

Recently placed another order with Missouri Bullet Company for 500 of their .38 Special 158 gr. LSWC's. They cast them at brinell hardness of 12 which is ideal for the velocities we are talking about.
My S&W 67 4" loves this bullet. MBC now states orders are taking 3-4 weeks, I had mine in less than two weeks.

Need to give em a shout. They are less than 10 miles from the house.

4.5grs of Unique, or Universal and 158-160gr cast.


As I said in another thread, fixed sight S&W 38's, regardless of frame, are on the money with the 158's. I also shoot cast bullets about 99.9% of the time in the 38.

Actually, in every revolver.

A post by Mackay Sagebrush from the thread "Best snub nose round 38SPL +P". Note the last sentence address your standard load requirement. There are a lot of good general purpose pistoleros at the fire but when it comes to self defense, when Mackay talks I listen.

Link to post If you click the link look at the very next post showing the accuracy attainable with a small J-frame.

"Full wadcutters for straight and consistent penetration on the initial load. The very majority of the most ballistically experienced gunmen I know do this for their initial load. After this use a reload that is easier to top off, such as the Speer Gold Dot short barrel load.

Wadcutters load attributes are excellent accuracy, low recoil, and deep penetration along with excellent tissue disruption compared to typical round nose designs, due to the sharp profile.

A friend and former FBI SAC has also specifically recommended the Lee 358-160-RF for it's penetration capabilities similar to wadcutters, yet being much easier to reload than a standard wadcutter.

Frankly, it has been my experience and observation that people tend to pick loads for the J frames that they are not able to shoot well at all instead of a load that they can shoot precisely. There is a reason that lesser recoiling, deep penetrating full wadcutters have long been recommended. They shoot to POA/POI, and the very vast majority of users can shoot them accurately, as opposed to +P loads."



Hits in the right place count more than sheer power. Hmmm, something like that might make a good sig line....

Fwiw, I should be getting a 3" J-frame delivered this coming week. Already have some initial wadcutter rounds loaded up using Missouri Bullet Company powder coated DEWC and bought them as a specific reaction to Mackay's advice.

Re/accuracy with +p 38 spl loads: Up through the early 1970s our dept., all 38 spl. revolver issue, about 110 members, shot the FBI PPC (practical pistol course) once a year. IMO it's a relatively difficult course for anyone that doesn't shoot a lot. The course has different stages of timed fire from different distances, some behind barricades out to as I recall, 50 yards, at a silhouette target. Double and single action using the right and left hand for single action.

We carried round nose police issue ammo and were each given a box of wadcutters for PPC qualification until we got a new chief around 1970. He had issue ammo changed to something hotter and he required it be used for the PPC. I can't recall the specific brand but there was a noticeable increase in recoil. Until then we had a few guys that shot a lot and usually had high scores, sometimes perfect. When the hotter loads were issued and required for the course there were no more perfect scores for the first few years and everyone's scores dropped noticeably.

My .38 Special plinking/carry load for my Ruger SP101 features a 158gr Cast Performance SWC combined with Trail Boss. I'm still fine-tuning recipes and have not chronographed anything yet, but recoil is more than manageable to me and accuracy is good enough for any chores I might assign to a snubby; center-of-mass every time at 20-25 feet. This is not my EDC. It sits in my "fire alarm" bag and sometimes goes on my belt when I'm hunting with a rifle.

I shoot coated cast 125's from the Lee mold for plinking, and the short barrel Speer ammo for EDC. Hornady has some really low recoil stuff for snubbies if that is your game.

I load between 3.2 grains and 3.6 grains of Red dot under a 158 cast lead bullet. The 3.2 for plinking and the 3.6 for a carry load. Nicely accurate and low recoil.

kwg

Wadcutter 148 grain slugs (BB or hollow base)... touch of Bullseye powder. LuckyGunner says 18 inches of penetration and it's a dandy .38 load for self defense. Groups 10x better than lots of 'self defense' loads to!

https://www.grantcunningham.com/2011/11/ed-harris-revisiting-the-full-charge-wadcutter/

3.5 grains + 148 grain hard-cast double-ended ( not hollow base) wadcutter.

Delete. Dupe post

plinker

Trailboss ??????

Some may disagree as to importance in the age old question of what is more important expansion or penetration. I for one feel penetration trumps expansion by a long shot, without penetration you won’t get to the vitals. The best commercial defense plinking load that is low cost and penetrates greatly from a sub 2” J frame is the Hornady 125 XTP. 13 - 17 inches of penetration with minimal expansion a true 900 fps load from a sub 2” that is not a +P.

I've almost 100% positive that it's against the law in at least 46 states, and a few territories, to shoot anything but lead out of a 38 special.

I'd load wadcutters and call it done.

I've got a bunch of those speer swaged 158g hpswc bullets. I'm just starting to load them and I'm going to use 5g of universal because I have a few cans of universal I needed to find a use for. We'll see how they do from my lcr and 360pd. Hoping for around 900fps from 2" barrels.

Bb

My experience is that you seem to need about 850 fps to get 158 LSWCHPs to open up. Not bad recoil, but not plinking either. Of course from a 3" that will not take as a hot a load as required in a 2"

I think the best overall .38 bullet is probably the 135 gold dot. I have shot it at many different velocities, from 900 fps to 1300 fps and it doesn't care how fast you drive it-- it holds together well and expands with very sharp cutting edges to about 0.60. It doesn't get any bigger when you drive it faster-- it just goes deeper. It's a very predictable bullet.

The remington 125gr golden sabers were available super cheap for a while. They open up around 900 fps, get very big and sharp and cut well. Only downside is that as you drive this bullet faster you get more expansion rather than more penetration. At 1100 fps they still held together but opened up to about .75 as I remember. Very sharp edges and definitely cutting a .75 hole.

What might make the decision in the end is what the sights are regulated for.

Wadcutters are also fine but in a 3" you can definitely squeeze enough velocity out to make an expanding bullet work. Big difference between a .75 or .60 hole and a .358 hole.

Do what? Please provide your source for that? I have never heard anything remotely like that. However, I have been wrong before. Just ask my mother-in-law.

Sarcasm.

Meaning that the 38 is a great cast bullet cartridge and it's all I ever shoot in them.

I haven't shot any of those swaged semi wadcutters in years but back when I did they leaded the bore terribly when pushed much over 850 fps. In fact, they were the reason I began casting bullets for handguns. The want I had to drive a lead SWC to 1,000+ fps required a hard cast slug.

I've heard they can foul pretty bad. Even speer says not to load them over 1000fps. I'll try for 900 and see how they do. I'm hoping to find a window where they are going fast enough to expand but not leading the bore like crazy. I'll get them to 900 fps and see how they do on milk jugs. I've got a few thousand I need to use up. If I have to ill slow them down and just plink with them.

Bb

The trick to eliminating leading and improving accuracy lies not in using a harder lead bullet. A "soft" bullet of, say, bhn 9-12 will work wonders in those regards, as well as expand reliably if driven 800fps and faster. Size the bullet for a slight interference fit in the cylinder throats - ignore barrel groove diameter - and use a good lube. (Hot powder gasses blasting past the too small bullets is what causes leading in throats, forcing cones, and bores.) I know that going softer is counter intuitive, but a soft bullet will obturate to fill out and seal those gasses in, and a hard bullet won't.

Those Speer lead SWC's are good bullets, but they make them on the small side so as to work in all guns. (Yes, Virginia, there was/is a large discrepancy in throat diameters over the years. It's why I keep .356, .357, and .358 diameter bullet sizing dies handy so as to match my bullets to the particular gun.*) That, plus the minimally efficient dry lube they use, is why the Speers aren't the greatest choice when working up loads at the upper end of the scale.


*I have three .38's I load/have loaded for: a 40's vintage Colt Officer's Model Match took .356's, a 60's vintage S&W K-38 took .358's, and my current 1949-vintage S&W K-38 takes .357's.

Lee Liquid Alox helps that leading.

Just don’t respond to the dang trolls

These speers are already sized a little small so I'll just have to see how they do in my guns. Would it be worth trying Lee alox over the top of the factory lube? I'm hoping for 900 fps.

Bb

I used Lee Alox over the Speer 158 grain swchp, and it did help, but not eliminate, the leading in my revolvers with that bullet.

For the guys reccomending full wadcutters, I completely agree and that's what is in my wife's j frame, with short barrel gold dots in the speedloaders to facilitate reloading,
exactly as someone mentioned above.

I would add this though, pick a wadcutter that has a sharp leading edge rather than a beveled leading edge. That sharp edged wadcutter performs better on soft tissue than the rounded edge and penetrates just as well.

3.5 grains BULLSEYE + 148 grain hard-cast double-ended (not hollow base) wadcutters.
Left out the powder, but it was in the link.

Shoots well in my S&W 649-2 and S&W 60-4 (3" bbl)-both 38 specials.

Just loaded 5.5gr power pistol under 158gr [actually weigh 164gr] Keith bullets for Moms 38 Special, they ran 922 over the chrono, I would NOT bet against them for defense, and surely fun to plink with, very comfortable load with a mild report to boot.

These are some loads that i got and use some of the powders for my air weight pistol in 38 spl.

Bullseye-2.8 to 3.7 speed is 710-875 fps
Reddot-3.0 to 3.9 speed is 750-895fps
Green dot-3.0 to 4.2 speed is 675-890 fps
Unique-3.8 to 5.1 speed is 710-955 fps
700x-2.8 to 3.6 speed is 700-855 fps

They come from an old Lyman load book.

I use the lower load because my hand has arthritis and they don't hurt it.