24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Neck size vs full length for accuracy #15063181 07/19/20
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 31
M
Mkopmani Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 31
I'm returning to precision shooting after about 25 yrs off. While it used to be trend to neck size, I'm seeming a majority of benchrest guys full length sizing. Bushing dies were new to me and I 've been using them to neck size for 0/002" bullet press fit. I trim to maintain headspace, and maintain neck O/D and I/D for concentricity.

Question i have is if everyone has migrated to full length sizing, what's the theory behind it?

Is the FL Redding bushing size just a plain sized die except for the bushing?

I have a shoulder bump die but have not needed it yet, bolt closes ok. I'm shooting 264 WM and 308 Win.

BP-B2

Re: Neck size vs full length for accuracy [Re: Mkopmani] #15077168 07/24/20
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 850
C
Creeker Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
C
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 850
I'm with you. I neck size even for my lever guns. Never a problem & I'm not convinced yet to switch.


Joshua 1:9
Re: Neck size vs full length for accuracy [Re: Mkopmani] #15077564 07/24/20
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 12,551
G
gunswizard Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
G
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 12,551
I FL sized for years then drank the NS Kool-aid and switched. Guess what I had chambering problems so went back to FL sizing, should have never switched as I never had any problems with FL sized cases.

Re: Neck size vs full length for accuracy [Re: Mkopmani] #15079605 07/25/20
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 33,934
M
mathman Offline
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
M
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 33,934
There are too many variables in play to give a blanket answer.


"In the real world, think of the 6.5 Creedmoor as the modernized/standardized/optimized version of the 6.5x55/.260." John Barsness 2019
Re: Neck size vs full length for accuracy [Re: Mkopmani] #15080026 07/25/20
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,150
D
DocEd Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
D
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,150
The term, "Full Length" as it is used in modern bench rest, is really "partial full length". A special die is custom made to reduce the body diameter minimally while "bumping the shoulder" back .001-.002". This allows a round to be chambered without disturbing the rifle in the front rest. When neck sizing only, the cases become tighter after a few firings and will require considerable pressure on the bolt to chamber a round. Partial full length resizing, with shoulder bump, eliminates this problem.


NRA Life Patron Member Benefactor Level
USN/USMC Vietnam Vet 1969-70
IC-A

Re: Neck size vs full length for accuracy [Re: mathman] #15080461 07/25/20
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 32,847
bsa1917hunter Offline
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 32,847
Originally Posted by mathman
There are too many variables in play to give a blanket answer.


I agree with mathman. This is the "competitive shooting" forums, so one would have to assume major competitive shooting. Like camp perry and the like. How many here are really in that competitive world? I shoot local competitive matches, but not to the level where I really feel like I need to do more than just partial full length size my chidt. I really don't think there are too many guys here on the fire that shoot competitively. Not even in this forum, as I don't see any guys posting in the moa all day long challenge in the ar and tactical rifle forums. If there were very many guys that shoot competitively here, they would be on that like a fly on stink.. I also agree about the "too many variables". That's, what type of competition are we talking? What chamber, no hunting rifles here, just full on target rifles with tight chambers. Are you turning your necks and measuring your neck to chamber clearance? That's critical for accuracy, as well as maintaining minimal concentricity. If that's the case, maybe the guys that full on compete will reply to the OP. Maybe they will participate in the MOA all day long challenge here too. Maybe unicorns are real too...


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.

Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
P


BSA
Re: Neck size vs full length for accuracy [Re: Mkopmani] #15080576 07/25/20
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 572
R
rayporter Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
R
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 572
the OP said bench rest not hunting and then talks of hunting calibers like comparing apples to peanuts. Doc hit it well enough. why say anything if he is talking hunting.
there are more competitors around than you might think, it is just that we cant teach an old dog new tricks so we dont try.

the centerfire benchrest of 1995 was a far cry from today. the ppc was just coming into it own and VV113 was just being discovered. people neck sized or did not size all, they dumped powder and seated a bullet with their fingers- and could win.

now days a case full of 133 will consist of 30.4 gr and you must full length if you wish to get the case back in the chamber.
most new shooters that try to get 30 gr of 133 in a case will pour powder all over the table the first time they try.

everyone thought you had to neck size to keep the case straight in the chamber but as record after record fell it became clear that full length was the way to go.

one other invention changed the game too. the joystick rest. you see shooters that can get 5 shots off in 10 seconds when the wind is right. and break records doing it, cause if you wait the wind will change. as Doc said, in order for the ammo to chamber with out upsetting the rifle you had to full length.

Re: Neck size vs full length for accuracy [Re: bsa1917hunter] #15081042 07/25/20
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 31
M
Mkopmani Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 31
My process for brass: fired brass for chamber forming. Measure neck size to determine chamber size. Size necks to provide dust cleanup of I/D, then pilot in custom hard turned handed to dust O/D, providing ear zero runout. Then fish my size to provide 0.002" bullet press fit. My next step is to anneal necks and perform this to see if neck tension. Until this point I've not had to bump size, but that's next after annealed test.

Re: Neck size vs full length for accuracy [Re: rayporter] #15082100 07/26/20
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,557
G
greydog Offline
Campfire Guide
Offline
Campfire Guide
G
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,557
Originally Posted by rayporter
the OP said bench rest not hunting and then talks of hunting calibers like comparing apples to peanuts. Doc hit it well enough. why say anything if he is talking hunting.
there are more competitors around than you might think, it is just that we cant teach an old dog new tricks so we dont try.

the centerfire benchrest of 1995 was a far cry from today. the ppc was just coming into it own and VV113 was just being discovered. people neck sized or did not size all, they dumped powder and seated a bullet with their fingers- and could win.

now days a case full of 133 will consist of 30.4 gr and you must full length if you wish to get the case back in the chamber.
most new shooters that try to get 30 gr of 133 in a case will pour powder all over the table the first time they try.

everyone thought you had to neck size to keep the case straight in the chamber but as record after record fell it became clear that full length was the way to go.

one other invention changed the game too. the joystick rest. you see shooters that can get 5 shots off in 10 seconds when the wind is right. and break records doing it, cause if you wait the wind will change. as Doc said, in order for the ammo to chamber with out upsetting the rifle you had to full length.






An interesting observation but in 1995, the PPC had been in use and winning for nearly twenty years. In the mid to late seventies, there were proponents for every technique. Fitted necks, neck sizing, fl sizing, shoulder bumping (especially with the 6BR), were all in use. I used fitted necks in a 6x47 and a PPC and fl sized for the PPC as well. I neck sized for the 6BR. It became obvious, over time, fl sizing was more consistent and easier than other methods. Keep in mind, full length sizing, with these rifles, didn't really alter case dimensions very much. Rifle chamber size was just not that much different than sizing die size so the sizer did little more than touch the body and support the sidewalls as the shoulder was bumped.
I feel that things are being done by much the same methods today as they were 40 years ago but they are being done better. Also, competitors are spending a lot more money to accomplish their goals.
In the end, regardless of the type of shooting, I think one will enjoy the most consistent results by full length sizing. GD

Re: Neck size vs full length for accuracy [Re: Mkopmani] #15082556 07/26/20
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 572
R
rayporter Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
R
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 572
my thought process was that the ppc had just about pushed all other cartridges into the background. a few hold outs were out there just as now. but it was becoming obvious that the ppc was dominant.

IC-B

Re: Neck size vs full length for accuracy [Re: rayporter] #15082609 07/26/20
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,150
D
DocEd Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
D
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,150
If 95% of the rifles on the line are 6PPC, does that not skew the odds towards a PPC being the winner?. We ran IBS score matches for over 20 years, and for at least the first 15 years the 6PPC dominated the Varmint for Score competition. Rarely, if ever, did any other cartridge even compete. There were a few guys who ran 308W and variants thereof but, for the most part the 6PPC was the boss. Once the 30BR hit the scene, the 6PPC all but disappeared from the score matches.

None of the above has anything to do with the original question however.
There are several spot-on explanations concerning sizing for accuracy in the preceding posts.

Last edited by DocEd; 07/26/20.

NRA Life Patron Member Benefactor Level
USN/USMC Vietnam Vet 1969-70
Re: Neck size vs full length for accuracy [Re: DocEd] #15082648 07/26/20
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,623
Swifty52 Offline
Campfire Guide
Offline
Campfire Guide
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,623
Originally Posted by DocEd
If 95% of the rifles on the line are 6PPC, does that not skew the odds towards a PPC being the winner?. We ran IBS score matches for over 20 years, and for at least the first 15 years the 6PPC dominated the Varmint for Score competition. Rarely, if ever, did any other cartridge even compete. There were a few guys who ran 308W and variants thereof but, for the most part the 6PPC was the boss. Once the 30BR hit the scene, the 6PPC all but disappeared from the score matches.

None of the above has anything to do with the original question however.
There are several spot-on explanations concerning sizing for accuracy in the preceding posts.


Yepper, .308 diameter gives you a larger margin of miss than .243.



Swifty
Re: Neck size vs full length for accuracy [Re: Mkopmani] #15082773 07/26/20
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 572
R
rayporter Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
R
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 572
except that is not true in UBR score

Re: Neck size vs full length for accuracy [Re: Mkopmani] #15085822 07/27/20
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 386
blindshooter Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 386
My comp days are over. Spine issues and evil wife #2 brought that to a screeching halt. Except for some IPSC in the late 80's all my match shooting was NMC and HP LR. The across the course stuff was all FL sized, pushing the shoulder back as little as possible but still allowing easy chambering. I tried just neck sizing the LR stuff but the loads I was using barely went back in so annealing and min shoulder bump worked best for me.
Personally, at least in sling shooting, range time with good loads gained better scores over time spent wearing out barrels trying to find perfect loads.

Don't know my azz from a hole in the ground about bench rest.

Re: Neck size vs full length for accuracy [Re: Mkopmani] #15087106 07/27/20
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 31
M
Mkopmani Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 31
I don't want to mislead anyone here, thanks to those who offered feedback and valuable information. I am not a competitive benches shooter. I am shooting from a bench for personal enjoyment. This was the closest/best place I found to post and ask questions. I used to shoot NM High Power and always neck sized with no issues and good results. I still shot a couple 40X Remingtons and am playing with a Sendero 264 WM. I also have a 40X Hart action/barreled bench gun that shot in the 0.130's that is like to play with again.

My questions were to try to educate myself in the latest trends and practices since I laid off shooting, focused on work and family for the last 25yrs. Hope that provides those here with a fuller perspective.

Re: Neck size vs full length for accuracy [Re: Mkopmani] #15088025 07/28/20
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,557
G
greydog Offline
Campfire Guide
Offline
Campfire Guide
G
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,557
I recall reading in a very early Lyman manual that their testing indicated that FL sizing produced better accuracy. I think they were talking about a Springfield 30/06 but I think their statement still holds true. Ultimately, as long as the body of the case is supported for the sizing of the neck, there is probably little difference. If, as with the typical neck sizer, the body is unsupported, FL sizing will produce a more concentric round.
When I first started shooting a Ruger No.1, I was convinced that the tendency for the breech block to lift the rear of the case up, meant that neck sizing would produce better accuracy. I was probably wrong. GD

Re: Neck size vs full length for accuracy [Re: Mkopmani] #15088391 07/28/20
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,808
slm9s Offline
Campfire Guide
Offline
Campfire Guide
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,808
For maximum accuracy you want everything the same every time. If you only neck size, your brass grows a tiny bit every firing (and possibly not uniformly between pieces of brass), eventually needing to be FL sized. You can get very good accuracy doing this. To get the best accuracy though IMO, you want to just barely FL size every time giving every piece of brass (hopefully) uniform size.

I mostly neck size my brass for tactical and varmint guns, FL for hunting rifles, and do minimum FL for 6ppc.


Steve in Tacoma
Re: Neck size vs full length for accuracy [Re: Mkopmani] #15099970 08/01/20
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,497
Reba Offline
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,497
The most important part is to start with really good brass.

Say LAPUA.

Without regard to the dies you use the best dies can not fix bad brass.

The game here is CONCENTRIC, just as in building a great preforming engine.

Setting up your dies properly is also very important.

Get your self a concentricty gage and see what your results are.

With good brass maybe all you need is a set of Lee Collet Dies


When the tailgate drops the BS stops.

Moderated by  RickBin, SYSOP 

RR1
Who's Online Now
68 registered members (BABore, 35, 4and1, 10gaugemag, 257_X_50, 2ndwind, 7 invisible), 738 guests, and 901 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
RR2/3










Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2020 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
 
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3
(Release build 20190728)
PHP: 7.3.20 Page Time: 0.041s Queries: 14 (0.004s) Memory: 0.8589 MB (Peak: 1.0018 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2020-08-07 08:53:41 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS