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Quandry Cure #14992931 06/23/20
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DigitalDan Offline OP
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While back I was casting about looking for a gun loony project and want to let you wankers know it is about to unfold. BP birdshot/buckshot/big ol' balls from a W.C. Scott SxS 12 bore. Brass cases.....I'm gonna have some fun with this and keep you all up to date on progress.

DD


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


BP-B2

Re: Quandry Cure [Re: DigitalDan] #14994991 06/24/20
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DigitalDan Offline OP
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It is pleasantly peaceful here in this forum, praise be unto the gun gods!

General layout follows:

12 bore SxS W.&C. Scott and Son manufactured in 1895, Both barrels (Damascus) are F.C. with a bore diameter at the muzzle of .695". I have absolutely no idea when the gun was last fired, it came into my hands about 5 years ago at a gun show. About 15 minutes ago I put a couple of primed cases in the pipes just to see if the old cannon would pop the caps. OH YEAH! Very nice condition, all things considered. Left bore is pristine, right side has a very minor amount of light pitting on the right side of the about 10" from the breech. It looks more like dust specs than pitting it is so light.

Magtech brass gifted from a member here on the 'Fire along with a quantity of nitro and fiber wads. Another gift also arrived, a quantity of ancient but very well preserved...Remington/UMC production. Over shot wads arrived 2 days ago. Because the brass is thin walled all wads are 11 ga. wads. The brass ID Is ~.765" at the case mouth, length just a hair less than 2.5". Once loaded the over shot wad will receive a small ring of Duco cement on the perimeter as is the custom with loading shells of this nature.

All of the brass I received had been fired in the past, with smokeless powder as best I could determine. They were tumble cleaned and present as essentially new brass. I do not know how old the brass was, but the primer pocket geometry was not totally consistent so I ordered a pocket uniforming tool from Midsouth and cleaned them up a little. The use large pistol primers. The most obvious discrepancy however was that primer flash holes were not of uniform size, nor were they all centered. I do not think it will interfere with the project. I did not realize until looking into the history of brass shells that they were in common use up until the beginning of WWII.

Loads to be tested:

All will start with 3 dram equivalent loads and 1 to 1-1/8th ounce of shot or ball. CCI 300 primers and Swiss 1.5 FG powder. Why 1.5? It's what I have. Load data comes from the Lyman Blackpowder Load Manual. All charges are by volume, not weight.

#9 shot; 1 oz, 82 grains of powder. A friend wishes to toss some clays for this load. laugh
#4 buckshot, 1-1/8th oz (24 pellets) 82 grains of powder
.690" roundball, weight of approximately 490 gr., 82 grains of powder

I will use a single layer of thin paper as a shot sleeve in the first two loads and a .010" cloth patch around the ball in the last load.

Stand by, lots of smoke soon to be released.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


Re: Quandry Cure [Re: DigitalDan] #14995064 06/24/20
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If it'll help, I've got 3#s of Elephant FFFg that you are welcome to!................

[Linked Image from gunmart.net]

Last edited by muffin; 06/24/20.
Re: Quandry Cure [Re: DigitalDan] #14995199 06/24/20
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DigitalDan Offline OP
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I have about 15# of 3f and 21# of 1.5. Also about 3# of 4f. Thanks but I don't need anymore Lord Black at the moment.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


Re: Quandry Cure [Re: DigitalDan] #14995253 06/24/20
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44mc Offline
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this endeavor sounds like a lot of fun & smoke . DD to my understanding those old thin brass shells were military surplus purchased in the late 40s early 50s and shot in the mid 70s .i will stay tuned to this thread .my early teen dream was to load some of them brass shells that i shot .

IC-A

Re: Quandry Cure [Re: 44mc] #14995637 06/24/20
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DigitalDan Offline OP
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Well, I’m quite certain to learn a few things along the way. grin

Only tool I don’t have is a sizing die, but that’s a conundrum in itself. There is a 12 ga sizer in the market, but no 20 or 16 tools. All of which may be of little importance. All of the brass I have has been fired and it still chambers easily. 20, 16 and 12 ga.

That said my loading tools consist of a light hammer, 1/2 and 5/8” dowels. The dowels work quite well for seating primers and wads. Case closed, no pun intended.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


Re: Quandry Cure [Re: DigitalDan] #15002578 06/27/20
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DigitalDan Offline OP
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Loaded 6 #8’s and 5 ea. #4 buck and .690 balls. The balls were loaded with .010” cleaning patch cut in the form of a cross. The cloth compressed with ease and will pass thru the FC with a few light taps with a cleaning rod. Loads are 3 drams of 1.5 FG.

Was perusing the net on the topic and found an article by Ross Seyfried with load data. One was for Old Eynsford 1.5 fg....130 grains as I recall. Be still my heart!

Expect to shoot round 1 in about 9-10 days.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


Re: Quandry Cure [Re: DigitalDan] #15002687 06/27/20
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two thumbs up !

Re: Quandry Cure [Re: DigitalDan] #15072050 07/22/20
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DigitalDan Offline OP
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Well, I thought I'd lean something and boy did I!

Per prior conversation a supply of brass was donated and I set about making things happen. Round 1 was cleaning the brass a bit, checking some dims and other miscellany.

The gun is a W&C Scott and Son 12 ga SxS with FC on both barrels of ~30" length. Muzzle I.D. is .695".
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I just discovered today during the cleaning process it is the oldest gun I've shot. The proof mark dates production 1855-1868. Action is drum head tight, safety fully functional, and I popped a couple primers just to verify it would shoot before loading brass.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Not having dies/shell holders etc I reverted to my style with priming the .22 GTC with a hammer. Worked just dandy. I did use a wooded dowel also. -hint-
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Chucked a little powder in and started assembling the loads. 3 series of loads with #8 shot, #4 buck and a .690" lead round ball. By coincidence the ball weighed 1-1/8th oz so all the loads were of that charge weight. All propelled by 75 gr (volume) Swiss 1-1/2FG and a CCI LRP in the MagTech brass. Wads were of 11 ga size due to the thin walls of the brass, and worked well save for the overshot wad which was a little loose. I have since purchased some 10ga overshot wads. FYI, the ball was wrapped in a .010" thick cleaning patch and the shot was loads used a paper strip as a sleeve. No leading occurred with any of the loads fired.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


Re: Quandry Cure [Re: DigitalDan] #15072155 07/22/20
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DigitalDan Offline OP
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So, off to the range with my buddy Muffin. Rural part of the community, hilly and adjacent to some powder lines. We shot all loads at 20 long paces and I apologize about the #8 shot target...the holes are tiny. grin

I shot the right barrel, Muffin shot the left and we found the patterns well formed and fairly centered on the aiming dot in the 30" circle.

The target presented thus:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I must say it was with apprehension that I pulled the trigger on the first round. You see, I have a .45-70 named Thumper by my esteemed friend and it is a valid name. The load for that one runs around 65 gr of Swiss with a 530 gr bullet. The gun weighs 11-12# It thumps on BOTH ends. The WC Scott weighs a rather svelte 7# or so. The load mentioned earlier is roughly equivalent in all regards, save the charge weight. I loaded for the shotgun with charges based on volume. They weighed about 85 gr. Sooooo, I stood up like a man and pulled the trigger. What a pussy cat! Felt about like a 20 ga. We waited about 5 minutes for the smoke to clear and found the target.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The pattern was well centered and only a very few hit the paper outside the 30" range.

So, next up was the #4 buck. 24 pellets as I recall....BOOM!
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The pigs aren't happy at all about this. grin

Lastly, the ball load. When loading these it was obvious the ball would rattle around in the case, thus the .010" patch I mentioned. It started 1-1/2" in diameter and I cut 4 pie shaped wedges to avoid overlaps when inserted. Sufficiently cautious I was that I explored whether or not it would pass thru the choke without splintering ancient metal. It worked with only mild resistance. So, boom and boom! I shot the right one, Muffin shot the left.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Now that I know this sucker works I got some loading to do. I also need to find a bag of #5 or 6 shot. laugh

Misc. info for you fellas. I have a couple of cases that are/were a snug fit and the one I shot like that was difficult to extract. RCBS makes a 12ga sized die kit for this enterprise, but I have not found any tools for other gauges at all. All the brass I have has been fired previously, how many times is a guess, but most of it is easy in and out. Also FYI, all overshot wads had a ring of Duco cement on the circumference and it holds well enough that it holds together during firing of the other barrel. Oooo Raaah!

By the way, unlike BP in rifles I found no need to swab the bore between shots. Worked just dandy. Then I went to clean it after the shoot and....wow...talk about dirty patches!! Had to use three patches on each tube, then a coat of oil just for grins. Took all of about 10 minutes. Know what? I got some 20 ga brass as well, and a Webley Scott 20ga SxS that's never been fired....


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


IC-B

Re: Quandry Cure [Re: DigitalDan] #15072531 07/22/20
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great wright up DD . if you need any more brass i still have the shipping info.nothing like the smell of lord black in the morning grin

Re: Quandry Cure [Re: DigitalDan] #15072549 07/22/20
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DigitalDan Offline OP
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Thanks for all, I probably have enough to keep me occupied for now.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


Re: Quandry Cure [Re: DigitalDan] #15072628 07/22/20
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jimy Online Content
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I might need to buy some ammo for you when you get up to full production . laugh

I have an Idea for cutting an over wad from waxed cardboard, the kind they ship hams and such, they would seal well and protect at the same time, I will look through my "stuff" and see what I have for brass. And a sizing die would be simple if you can't find one that suits you.


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Re: Quandry Cure [Re: DigitalDan] #15073959 07/23/20
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DigitalDan Offline OP
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Thanks Jimy.

After my first dive into the deep end several thoughts come to mind. The brass is ballpark 2-5/8” OAL and in general terms uses wads one gauge larger for loading. That said, it seems to me that any case, paper or plastic, could be loaded in the same fashion with same gauge wads. All that would be necessary is to trim the crimp segment or use a press to crimp the case. Black or smokeless? How new is the steel in your barrel? The base wad incorporated in paper and plastic shells will change load internal geometry. With the brass and loads I’ve assembled there is about 1/2” of empty case remaining. Doubt that would occur with paper/plastic hulls. OTOH, all of my scatterguns have 2-3/4” chambers. New kids on the block are likely playing with 3” chambers.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


Re: Quandry Cure [Re: DigitalDan] #15074658 07/23/20
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jimy Online Content
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I think I sent you pictures of the piece I picked up a year or so back, I just sent a the only picture I could find on my phone, The gun and its info are in my safe, I will get it out this evening, right now I'm having some water issues that require my prompt attention.

Black powder as its Damascus barreled , I'm thinking British 1900-1920 mid level quality, a Father & son company. "Fowler" maybe????????


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Re: Quandry Cure [Re: DigitalDan] #15092674 07/29/20
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Why do you guys use imported black powder? The only U.S. maker of black I know of is about 8 miles from where I sit.

Re: Quandry Cure [Re: DigitalDan] #15093068 07/29/20
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DigitalDan Offline OP
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I use Goex too, just not for the boomers.

Feel better?


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


Re: Quandry Cure [Re: DigitalDan] #15099273 08/01/20
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bartman Online Content
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"No find dead pig through heap big smoke"

Re: Quandry Cure [Re: DigitalDan] #15100717 08/01/20
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DigitalDan Offline OP
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laugh

Pigs: Smoke’m if ya got’m.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


Re: Quandry Cure [Re: DigitalDan] #15104356 08/02/20
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Very nice. I really like that shotgun! Always liked sxs guns. I know the feeling of touching off that first shot in a damascus gun.
I just bought a Lee round ball .690 mould to play with, but mine will be in a not so purty 870.
I remember your post looking for ideas on a "project". Looks like ya found a good one!
Best of luck.

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