Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Shooting experiment .

Got a couple of rifles tuned in loads and scopes zero'd .

Noticed what slightly different hold and placement on the bags did to the groups so I shot a couple of groups with extremely different holds and bag placements .

Groups went from .4/.5/.6'' [had one .088'' :)] to 1.7/1.8/1.9'' , I'd place the rifle on the rest out at the end of the stock , then get a full grip with my trigger hand , pull rifle hard into my shoulder . Next shot do about the opposite , next shot place the Toe [recoil pad] high on my shoulder change the adjustable rest height and rear bag positions . Just whatever I could randomly think of changing . Groups quadrupled in size .

Still minute of deer but was an eye opener when I thought about shooting long range from field positions , varying angles and such . I can ALWAYS use more field position shooting practice when I see my groups shot from different field positions .

How many shots did you fire per group?

Could tell a years worth of stories watching guys in HP shoot all around the clock, 6, 9, 12, 3, (and I`m not talking in the x-ring) because of position change in mounting their rifle. Then chase the bullets with sight adjustments.

Good for you....the operator DOES matter.

I'm convinced that's why Kimbers and other light rifles often get blamed for shooting poorly.


I shot my Montana with no support...rested on a hard sand bag on the front and rear and turned the trigger down low so I barely had to grip or touch anything. It shot pretty poorly. It's sub 6 pounds scoped and rechambered to 358win.


Same gun..loads...day. Held onto the grip and slightly supported the forend with my left hand. Nice groups around an inch.

can't explain it other than the recoil starts moving the gun before the bullet is gone when the rifle isn't supported.



Same thing can be seen with flimsy stocks and bags/rests/bipods etc.

I see a difference between when my buddy shoots his guns and when I shoot his guns.. Go figure..

5 shot groups .

Rem. 700 LRI 6.5x47L , bought it off of J-Pro .

Plus did same with CZ 17hmr , not quite as differing groups - didn't measure them just eyeballed it .

CGPaul ,

Howdy .
When I got back into archery 10 years ago-- being older and a bit wiser I related how important 'hold' was to rifle shooting , it taught me a lot !

The ''then chase the bullets with sight adjustments'' doesn't surprise me in the least .

Didn't you buy a Nikon Black Scope ?
I think it was you who gave one a try on tracking and zero retention - [if not forget everything I just said] , , never did hear/read how the scope performed ? --- ?

Mauser -6 ,

Howdy .
I went through the same thing with a Rem. Model Seven 260rem. , then did a little youtubing and reading on shooting a lightweight rifle - did a lot better .

I still can't shoot the first three shots inside an inch ''every time'' or with the same type rifle chambered 308 .

Just rewatched a video - guy who makes lightweight stocks shooting from a full size BullsBag with his wrist laying over the front scope ring . He gives some good advise on shooting a lightweight like a Kimber or ULA .

My shooting I mentioned in the beginning of the thread was with a heavy barrel rifle , a Kimber Montana shot that way - wow I don't know what the groups [patterns] might be .

If you have good technique, you don't need to shoot wonky for a light rifle. Shoot them all the same. Good fundamentals are a lost art I guess...

NO you don't shoot them all the same .

He might but I don't, my heavy rifles I held down on the bag/rest, and my light rifles I hold in my left hand and have my hand resting on the bag/rest, the butt is on my shoulder with the toe on a rear bag to stop movement.

And I hold them as consistently as I can.

That is exactly what happens, and this is why differences in hold affect POI. Lighter rifles tend to show this more, all else being equal, simply because they have less inertia, and so move more. Holding them in both hands, so the movement is less, and focussing on good consistency of hold - same position and pressure on the shoulder, same position of the hands, not dragging on the stock with your trigger finger, anchoring your elbows in the same place each time (preferably not moving at all between shots), same cheek/eye position, natural point of aim - all pay dividends.

You can see the effect on the target when any of these is forgotten. Let the buttstock drift outward between shots as the string progresses, for example, and you see the shots start to string laterally. You'll also often see differences in POI as between positions, including as between supported and unsupported positions, though all going well they'll be small - or small enough.

Ol_Mike,

I did an experiment like that years ago and got the same type of results with one rifle, then I tired it with a different heavier one and it varied but not as quiet as much.
Years later I got some shooting training in the military on “tactical” precise shooting, and then I shot high power, and even got some competitive shooting coaching.

Essentially what I learned was that beyond the physics of how the gun fires under recoil due to it’s own weight distribution (if it was floating in the air) the rifle will react to any pressure on it in all directions and change the group.

The best training that improved my groups by far was from the military guy who taught me to minimize the effects of my rests by shouldering in the exact same place each time, and loading (force) the rifle with my left hand back into my shoulder with the same amount of force (regardless of what I was wearing) each time... and NOT to effect the rifle with my right hand... just pinch the trigger like a crab claw between my finger & thumb.
This ultimately helps create a standard amount of force on the front & rest bag (that’s the goal) so the rifle recoils the same. They also taught me more on how to work a bolt without moving the gun or my head.. that didn’t change the shooting position.

Over the decades I worked to perfected that “hold” practice - high power helped figure it out BIG time... I once lost first place in a match because in the last shooting string the sling on my forearm was pinching the palm of my hand so I put the sling on top of my hand instead of under it for the last 5 shots... My group moved up almost 5” at 500 yard, and it took me a couple shots to verify I hand to change my dope - which put me in second place.

Anyway - In my experience... a starting place to minimize what you are seeing is consistent force from your left hand on the forearm pushing back the rifle into your shoulder with the same amount of force each time, and try to make sure the forces on the rifle from other contact points are minimized so that it recoils the same regardless of what it’s on.

Yep - your experiment is very, very correct.

Keep shooting !!

Spotshooter ,

Good Morning .

What type of Rest are you using ?
And are you shooting left handed ?

My left hand is on the Rear Bag - using it to fine tune my aim . Not sure I follow what you're explaining ,, ''left hand on forearm pushing rifle back into shoulder'' . How do you operate your rear bag ?

Ol_Mike -

I’m right handed so If you are a left handed shooter switch hands on what I said in the other post.

At the end of the day - I try to keep the rifle on the rest or anything it touches in the “neutral” or natural shooting position meaning when if I let go of the gun it’s still pointing at the target when laying fully on the rest and rear bag or other support, this ensures I’m not putting pressure in any other direction than my shoulder, because if there is sideway or up and down pressure on the rifle it’s going to shoot differently - swing swivels contacting during recoil will also throw things off big time. I generally slide the rifle front and back and impact it down into the rest a few times to try to get in position, then I move the rear bag enough to get it “neutral” or pointing at the target without any pressure, and at the same time ensure it’s going to slide without moving out of position.
in field shooting we often used a pack as a front rest, and smaller bag towel / pack or what ever we had for a rear rest.

* So if you are right handed...
Grab the fore arm With your left hand, and apply rearward pressure to your shoulder with the butt of the rifle.
* If you are a lefty
GrAB the forearm with your right and apply rearward pressure with it...

The key was to have slightly more pressure into the shoulder than rides on the bags to lower the amount of influence the bags have, or at least regulate it.

Rest wise -
I have a couple of rests.. One is a $100-150 dollar type callweld, the other is a $1,200 SEB NEO Rest... (I only use that for benchrest & F Class).
95% of the time I’m using a simple rest.

Good thread and a some timely advice for what I am doing here.

Thanks.

I've found that for off-hand shooting, from standing, that shotgunners with years of trap/skeet understand the importance of fit and mounting the gun
the same every time and it usually shows even in their rifle shooting.

Couple other things I was taught that had impacts on my ability to shoot.

Trigger hand Orientation /placement -
Think of your trigger hand as a set of pinchers that you only apply pressure between your trigger finger and your thumb.... in a way that doesn’t alter the pressure on the rifle.
Some guys like thier thumb straight up because it’s harder to put side pressure on the stock if you keep your thumb up like you are shaking hands - this of course works better on stocks with thumb rests... and you’ll note that PRS stocks often have those. My coach explained it like this - put you arm out with your palm facing down and it’s easy to push left and right (strength) but if you palm is facing sideways it’s harder to move anything left and right, but easier up and down.... so the best way to not influence the gun is to have your palm facing left or right and only pinch the stock vs. putting pressure like jerking the trigger rearward.


Forearm hand -

Palm under the forearm makes it easy to pull in to your shoulder, and use your waist to rotate NOT your arm.(think of it as a shooting “frame”).. you want your arm pulling the butt of the gun into your shoulder without left or right force. Your arm can’t really push up / down with your arm extended so as long as you relax and use the trunk of your body to and or sliding the gun up / down the bags to change elevation you have a pretty neutral hold on the rifle that can be maintained easily.

Basically you want to take you moving “jerking” the gun out of the equation so it recoils the same, and you are less apt to use your strength to move your firing piont which will change the way the gun recoils and it’s resulting POI.


Sorry I suck at explaining this stuff... I am thinking through what I learned, and trying my best to relay what works or worked for me that they thought me.

Why not use simple sand bags under the forend with the the forend supported with your hand?

I have a couple lightweight rifles here that are giving me trouble including 7.5lb scoped 300H&H.

Outside of benchrest, all my shooting is more tuned to field / tactical where I’m holding the forearm.
This works for me...

So, I put my hand on the forearm either ahead or behind the bag / rest /...

If you change the “drag” encountered by the forearm by your hand it will shoot differently... meaning when you shoot and the rfifle kicks upward your hand pressure will hold it down to some extent. I changed a sling from under my hand which pulls down when fired, to on top of my palm where it moved with my rifle and the 500 yard POI changed by almost 1 MOA...in a match.