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Thanks to all for the comments and opinions. Its helped in selecting my weapon of choice and is very much appreciated.


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Good comments from JJ and Flinch! Unfortunately, I shoot a .357mag better than a .44mag and a 4" barrel is more "packable" than a 6" barrel. But then again I'm not hunting, but more of a "woods gun" type use.

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Absolutely agree with JJHACK. Nicely said.

There's basically 4 conditions.

Adequately armed, mentally ready enough to take useful action.
Empty handed and scared smart.
Empty handed and clueless.
Armed but lulled by a false sense of security.

I prefer the first, I can get by with the second, I want no part of the last two. There is no replacement for having your wits about you, being observant, and making smart choices.

Tom


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Here be dragons ...
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Originally Posted by teesh
Just wondering what most would consider the minimum size handgun for Black bear and Cougar? Or more directly, would a .357 suffice or would the .44 be more appropriate? What loads would be reasonable in the .357 for either? I'm assuming 125 gr JHP (man-eaters) wouldn't be the first choice.

_____________________________________________________________
Yep..357 magnum will easily kill black bear and mtn lion in the hands of a decent hangunner...proper bullets, and acceptable range...and good initial hit...with follow up SA as required.

A reliable S&W wheelgun N frame is preferred by me and has served me well on many bear and lion kills when I didn't kill them with a well placed arrow....

My input doesn't include night attacks when one is camped and a black bear want's ther jerky you foolishly stashed under your pillow ..or you used bacon grease for your hair..:)..:)...or charging or wounded critters at close quarters..:) Jim

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I have only shot one bear with a handgun. It was not by choice but by necessity. I was at a friend's home and a big black bear decided it wanted to come in for tea. The only gun in the house was a government colt 45ACP. We lost track of the bear, I opened the door to see where the bear was and it stood up rght in front of me. I put four in the chest and three in the head of 230 gr hardball. Distance five feet, heart rate 200. It will get the job done, but I don't know if I would reccomend it. I butchered the bear and it ate really well. That was 20 years ago and I have not repeated the event again

Randy


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medicman,

You have cogently conveyed the reason why I have chosen an S&W 1911 .45 ACP as my trail gun. While I fish where there is no griz, black bears are more than common. I appreciate the idea of a powerful cartridge in a handgun design that facilitates easy deployment and incredibly fast and accurate follow-up shots. While a .41 Mag would be better, I am not willing to accept the trade-offs of greater length and width, increased recoil, and not as quick follow-up shots!

To me, it is most difficult to eliminate the venerable 1911 handgun in .45 ACP as the single best handgun for nearly all applications, from target practice/plinking to self-defense, to trail use.

When was the 1911 invented and who invented it???

Just kidding!!!

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JJ,
I'd love to know any autopsy results you found on those bear shot by cops with their duty guns. I'm assuming the chest hits just lacked penetration?

SOS


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MEDICMAN - " I have only shot one bear with a handgun. It was not by choice but by necessity. I was at a friend's home..."

Medicman, where were you?

L.W.


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Yes, that is correct, very limited penetration with expanding bullets, and with the round nose FMJ bullets they just pushed the important things out of the way and did little internal damage.

Mando, as far as the 45ACP and the personal feelings you have, I wish you well. Sometimes deep rooted emotional feelings are very hard to overcome, even for an intelligent person with a lot of common sense. The object for most is not to kill the attacking animal eventually but to crumple it on the spot. Re-read the part of my prior post where they used a 45ACP. It killed bears, but only after they lived long enough to chew and claw a person to bits. The penetration and tissue disruption was not in the same league as 41 and 44 mags or the 45 long colt and Casull. I also think it prudent to accept that your gonna get a single shot or at the very most two before contact is made. Speaking only for myself I want significant damage internal to reduce the time an animal like a bear has to disrupt my soft tissue.

I'm not sure what big game you have seen shot with a 45ACP, I have seen plenty shot with it. You have to remove the concept that an animal will react like a human when hit. A human hit anyplace with a 45ACP quits the fight right now. A 200 lb deer shot in the chest will run well over 100 yards and live for a long time. A 450lb black bear will not even react to the hit and leave you with the feeling you missed him. About the time you realize that he will be on you and your gun will have been knocked flying out of your hands.

Sometimes our emotions get the best of us, they can even screw with our logic and good common sense. I'm just as guilty at times of this character flaw. I wish you well with a 45ACP, but nothing you can shoot from that gun will really crumple a big black bear they way you will be hoping it does. Re-Read that article I wrote, most of the cops also had significant dissapointment in it's performance after they shot bears.

It's your call. For the most part people who prepare at all are never bothered or need the gun anyway. So odds are slim and none that you will actually put it to use. Even in the unlikely event that you do need it, it's a long shot better then a sharp stick!


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Originally Posted by jbuck
I'd rather take a .41 mag as a minimum. But I don't see why a good .357 with the right load wouldn't work.

Similar to my thinking!

I'd choose hard-cast boolits with stout charges of powder behind them. Whether DA's or single-actions, my sidearm would have 4 to 5 1/2 inch barrels.

But how proficient are you with your piece? After putting together your woods-arm, are you going to put a couple thousand rounds through it to be come "good?"

As for me? I need to get busy! grin

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Originally Posted by teesh
Just wondering what most would consider the minimum size handgun for Black bear and Cougar? Or more directly, would a .357 suffice or would the .44 be more appropriate? What loads would be reasonable in the .357 for either? I'm assuming 125 gr JHP (man-eaters) wouldn't be the first choice.


Cougars? 22RF are quite popular with outfitters, many like the 32 H&R, or 38 Spec. 357 is overkill.

Bears? 41 Mag is about right, 44 mag, 45 LC, 44 Spec all work just fine.......keep in mind, the odds of catching up with a 150 lb bear is far greater than a 350+ pounder.....

When I used to go bear hunting with some outfitter/houndsman buddies, I generally packed a 357 with 158gr hard cast or Sierra hollowpoints--but I never had occasion to try them out......

Casey


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Having said that, MAGA.
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Dear JJHack,

Originally Posted by JJHACK
Yes, that is correct, very limited penetration with expanding bullets, and with the round nose FMJ bullets they just pushed the important things out of the way and did little internal damage.

Mando, as far as the 45ACP and the personal feelings you have, I wish you well. Sometimes deep rooted emotional feelings are very hard to overcome, even for an intelligent person with a lot of common sense. The object for most is not to kill the attacking animal eventually but to crumple it on the spot. Re-read the part of my prior post where they used a 45ACP. It killed bears, but only after they lived long enough to chew and claw a person to bits. The penetration and tissue disruption was not in the same league as 41 and 44 mags or the 45 long colt and Casull. I also think it prudent to accept that your gonna get a single shot or at the very most two before contact is made. Speaking only for myself I want significant damage internal to reduce the time an animal like a bear has to disrupt my soft tissue.

I'm not sure what big game you have seen shot with a 45ACP, I have seen plenty shot with it. You have to remove the concept that an animal will react like a human when hit. A human hit anyplace with a 45ACP quits the fight right now. A 200 lb deer shot in the chest will run well over 100 yards and live for a long time. A 450lb black bear will not even react to the hit and leave you with the feeling you missed him. About the time you realize that he will be on you and your gun will have been knocked flying out of your hands.

Sometimes our emotions get the best of us, they can even screw with our logic and good common sense. I'm just as guilty at times of this character flaw. I wish you well with a 45ACP, but nothing you can shoot from that gun will really crumple a big black bear they way you will be hoping it does. Re-Read that article I wrote, most of the cops also had significant dissapointment in it's performance after they shot bears.

It's your call. For the most part people who prepare at all are never bothered or need the gun anyway. So odds are slim and none that you will actually put it to use. Even in the unlikely event that you do need it, it's a long shot better then a sharp stick!


I wish I were able to take exception to a single thing you wrote, but in all honesty I cannot. I know you're absolutely right. I have been hunting long enough to know that unless struck by a decent well-placed bullet, they do not easily give up the ghost! I wish I could tell you I have not tracked wounded animals, but I cannot write that either.

I wish S&W would build a five-shot .41 Mag on the L Frame. I'd be in hog heaven!

Thanks for your advice!!!

Merry Christmas,

Mando

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my very minuim would be 41 mag and would prefer the 44 mag if given choice move to 475 linebaugh and guranteed job done unless bad shot


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Whatever you use, make it count - for your family's sake, don't p*ss off the bear.

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Originally Posted by Leanwolf
MEDICMAN - " I have only shot one bear with a handgun. It was not by choice but by necessity. I was at a friend's home..."

Medicman, where were you?

L.W.


I was outside of Elie (query spelling) Minnesota. It was at a friend's home and he was at work. I actually live in NW Ontario now.
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Thanks, Medicman. Reason I asked was I know a man who had the same thing happen to him up in the high Sierra of Calif. Thought you might coincidentally be my friend.

L.W.


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Originally Posted by JJHACK
...Sometimes our emotions get the best of us, they can even screw with our logic and good common sense. I'm just as guilty at times of this character flaw. I wish you well with a 45ACP, but nothing you can shoot from that gun will really crumple a big black bear they way you will be hoping it does. Re-Read that article I wrote, most of the cops also had significant dissapointment in it's performance after they shot bears...


Yes, emotions do get in the way of reason on this subject. I've been butting heads with internet ninjas on this topic for years. JJHACK, Kutenay, I appreciate what y'all have had to say on this thread.

I've had a lot of "bear encounters". I would estimate the number at somewhere between 40 and 60 over 40 years of back country hiking, fishing, and hunting. Some have been very close, as in being able to smell the bear's breath. Because almost all occurred in Canada's mountain parks, I was unarmed for most of them. Being educated about bears was/is what saved my fat @ss. Now I live in Wisconsin and hunt, hike and fish without fear because 1) I can now carry a handgun openly in the woods and 2) there ain't that many bears here.

I'm not a bear hunting expert. The only black bear I've ever killed died 30 years ago, and I shot it in my friend's garden in the Swan Hills under an agricultural protection permit, using an army surplus 303. But I've gone through the National Parks bear course, and I've killed a number of deer and hogs with handguns, and I've got access to a lot of data on the performance of handguns on human targets thru my medical and LE connections. For good measure, I've spent a lot of time over the years researching actual handgun performance on bears, mostly because I like bears and I like hunting with handguns.

Everything I've experienced in bear country, and the sum of knowledge I've accumulated about handgun GSW's lines up pretty straight with what JJHACK has posted. I've not been mauled personally (sorry about that, JJ, sucked to be you!), but I've witnessed the effects of a bear mauling on two occasions in backcountry, and several more times in the hospital. (That doesn't count the steel outhouse in the Kananaskis that I watched a juvenile grizzly crumple up like an empty Budweiser can, BTW...)

For handgun hunting purposes on bear, I would be willing to use any caliber from the .41 Magnum on up, not including the .45 ACP (or God forbid the .45 GAP). The .45 ACP's statistical performance on human targets in officer-involved shootings isn't that much better than the 9mm, and is outshone by the newest factory ammo in the .40 S&W. I happen to carry a .45 ACP as my off-duty gun most of the time, but I have no illusions about it being the 'ultimate' round. I carry a 1911 because I like the ergonomics, I shoot it well, and BTW, I carry the fastest, heaviest ammo I can buy. Even then I expect to have to put multiple rounds into an adversary if I have to finish a fight. I have several cases in my files of felons who absorbed 4 or more rounds of .45 ACP in the chest and kept on fighting.

In truth, the only rounds that really have DRT potential fire projectiles of significant mass at significant velocities. These are almost all "magnum" calibers. We're talking 230+ grains at 1100+ fps, and in truth, I like 1300 fps better, and I like 1400 fps a LOT better. In an autoloading pistol I think a hot 10mm would be minimally acceptable, but a .460 Rowland would be a lot better. A good double-action revolver with a 4- to 6-inch barrel chambered in .44 Magnum (or possibly .44 Special, if you handload) or .45 Colt is ideal. I prefer S&W N-frames to the big Rugers, but that's quibbling. I like the .357 Magnum and have taken several deer with this caliber, but it would not be my preference for bear or lion. Still, as JJ says it will do with a good 158 gr bullet at 1300 fps or a 180 gr pill at 1150 fps, I have no reason to argue otherwiwse.

I lived through the whole hardcast bullet fad and survived, and managed to harvest every animal I shot with those dang things, thought it involved a lot of blood trail tracking sometimes. I cast my bullets soft now, 1:20 to 1:30 alloys (tin:lead), mostly. I still like the way LBT-WFN profile bullets work on game though in these soft alloys, but a Keith-style SWC may be as good. Soft lead bullets work very, very well on game (and people). I've grown to mistrust Cor-Bon ammunition over the years, but their new DPX ammunition may win me over. We shall see. I've seen very good performance on deer with .44 and .45 caliber Speer Gold Dot HP bullets and there's nothing there to suggest they wouldn't work well on bear or lion as well.

Fact is that bears are big, strong, determined animals. If you think you will have to deter one with a firearm, it had better be a powerful firearm. This means a serious rifle or a slug gun, not a handgun. If you are very skilled with a big bore handgun, you might have the opportunity to stop a charging bear, but I wouldn't take those odds to Vegas.



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Used to catch bear and lion for clients, with hounds. They were treed, holed, or ledged up.
For bear,45lc, 41 or 44 mag , 30-30 better (more accuracy)
For lion 9mm, 357, 45lc. Even had a guy shoot one with 375H&H, pin hole in, pin hole out. Don't know why, but never had a one shot kill with 223.


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Very spot on review regarding the effectiveness of the 9's, 45's and the .40's......tough for many to accept the order in which you listed their effectiveness. The ballistics are indisputable, as are the many records compiled by those who are paid to closely monitor such activities, of which you made mention.

As to the original question...not sure where I'd draw the line as to a minimum, but I carry a 629 4in. with handloads consisting of 300gr. WFNHC's with a MV of 1,250 fps. This way, concerning myself with the "is this enough gun" question doesn't take up the precious few moments I might need to act accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Leanwolf
Thanks, Medicman. Reason I asked was I know a man who had the same thing happen to him up in the high Sierra of Calif. Thought you might coincidentally be my friend.

L.W.

He sounds like a good man to have as a friend.
I lived in Alberta in the 70's and did quite a bit of vertical hunting. Mountains are some pretty special are they not?
Randy the flat lander


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