Easy peasy. 405 grain Woodleigh. 1) They are bonded so cling together 2) The lead and copper are brittle enough to lose some weight thus NOT maintaining a huge mushroom that limits penetration. This gives them a great combination of expansion, wound channel and penetration. At the velocities we are talking about the 350 grain Hornady flatnose with interlock is also a winner. The old 300 Nosler Partition which has been discontinued was truly amazing but now long gone. I made a video on this topic 4 years ago if you are interested. I have also testted the 400 Speer and it is really soft and the enormous expansion reduced penetration. I have also tested 440 grain Hard Cast bullets with a wide meplat and while they penetrate through a huge amount of tissue the wound channel is quite a bit less.
Good points along with research , North. I have used the 350 Hornady for years , along with a supply of Hawk 400 gr FP and Kodiak 400 FPs. They perform in my pre-war Model 71 450 Alaskan. The Kodiaks like the Woodleighs are bonded core.
However, for reduced velocity-the Hawk 350-400 perform very well indeed. They were designed to perform well below max velocity in older rifles like the 1876-1886 Winchesters. The Hawk performance at 1500 FPS with a 350-400 458-FP is amazing.
The 1895 Marlin is not my first choice LA rifle, but my 22 in version with no extra safeties is a tough rifle-and not for sale. It will do the job almost as well as the original smokeless 45-70 - 1886 -or 450 Alaskan Model 71.
Last edited by 450Fuller; 08/30/20.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena-not the critic"-T. Roosevelt There are no atheists in fox holes or in the open doors of a para's aircraft.....
Timely thread. I just picked up a box of Swift factory 45-70 ammo with the 350 A Frame. I hope I never find out how well they work for brown bear defense. They are for use in a shared rifle, with some of the users not up for the recoil of the hottest loads. I see Buffalo Bore loads a 430 hard cast at 1550 and considered that one as well. I'll happily leave the bears alone if they will agree to the same.
I agree.
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go
Easy peasy. 405 grain Woodleigh. 1) They are bonded so cling together 2) The lead and copper are brittle enough to lose some weight thus NOT maintaining a huge mushroom that limits penetration. This gives them a great combination of expansion, wound channel and penetration. At the velocities we are talking about the 350 grain Hornady flatnose with interlock is also a winner. The old 300 Nosler Partition which has been discontinued was truly amazing but now long gone. I made a video on this topic 4 years ago if you are interested. I have also testted the 400 Speer and it is really soft and the enormous expansion reduced penetration. I have also tested 440 grain Hard Cast bullets with a wide meplat and while they penetrate through a huge amount of tissue the wound channel is quite a bit less.
I know nothing about these loads but what has worked for me for 50 years in Alaska is as above. If they don’t try to put big ugly holes in me, I won’t them. It’s been win win all around. So far.
I can tell you from close personal experience that 30yds would be a luxury for a bear encounter. My last one was five yards when I saw the bear. I was on my knees skinning an elk when we met up and my rifle was five yards in the opposite direction. My encounters on Afognak and Kodiak were way less than 30yds. No time to be scared as there is literally...no time.
Velocity is not much of an option for my 18" Model 94 in .450 Marlin. They all go slow. They all kick the crap out of the shooter in a light, handy package despite the integrated brake and this is my least favorite range gun. My suggestion is to consider a large and solid bullet for bear country. I had a particularly bad experience with Hornady 350gr interlock factory ammo--multiple shots with jacket separation from the lead core. I would have preferred a large, straight wound channel as shot placement was spot-on. Since then I switched to Kodiak Bonded bullets and hard cast lead. No great stories on bullet performance as I have yet to use them on game.
Looking for a good expanding bullet at low velocity for bear protection. 400 grain range.
Low velocity for 450 Marlin/45-70 Govt standards, or low velocity as compared to more contemporary rounds? Is this the same rifle you plan to carry for moose/caribou or a separate rifle only to be carried when packing meat out?
I used the 325 flex tip on a big bull moose and it worked fine, but don't think that's the most appropriate for bear defense. I'd at least consider the 405 grain Woodleigh. They make several heavier bullets, more designed for the .458 Win that may be of interest too. Those other bullets may be designed for common twists in .458 Win rifles (as opposed to slower twisted 450/45-70 lever rifles) though...I'm not sure about that.
Try a 402gr Shock Hammer. The gapping hollowpoint will likely open at any reasonable impact velocity and the core (90%) will pound through a lot of muscle. They are also available in 260gr and 300gr.
Try a 402gr Shock Hammer. The gapping hollowpoint will likely open at any reasonable impact velocity and the core (90%) will pound through a lot of muscle. They are also available in 260gr and 300gr.
Charlie-NY, The name says it all.
T_Inman,
Low velocity for 450 Marlin/45-70 Govt standards, or low velocity as compared to more contemporary rounds? (Lower velocity than the standard rounds , my 1900 fps might be considered high for the 420 grain Cast Performance?
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go
I can tell you from close personal experience that 30yds would be a luxury for a bear encounter. My last one was five yards when I saw the bear. I was on my knees skinning an elk when we met up and my rifle was five yards in the opposite direction. My encounters on Afognak and Kodiak were way less than 30yds. No time to be scared as there is literally...no time.
Velocity is not much of an option for my 18" Model 94 in .450 Marlin. They all go slow. They all kick the crap out of the shooter in a light, handy package despite the integrated brake and this is my least favorite range gun. My suggestion is to consider a large and solid bullet for bear country. I had a particularly bad experience with Hornady 350gr interlock factory ammo--multiple shots with jacket separation from the lead core. I would have preferred a large, straight wound channel as shot placement was spot-on. Since then I switched to Kodiak Bonded bullets and hard cast lead. No great stories on bullet performance as I have yet to use them on game.
5 yards must of been chilling. When we might be in the thick stuff I would be on my guard like no-other, one in the chamber ready to go. I have a friend that was attacked by a brown while salmon fishing over there, he is alive to say luckily. The bear apparently had a kill near-by the authorities say. Uncertain as to if the bear was destroyed.
T_Inman
I guess I would plan to hunt with the rifle as well as carry for anytime protection if that makes any sense? I have a bolt action 300 Winchester Mag I would like to try on Moose though. Maybe across some marshy flats or open areas, but that is another thread.
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go
The hard cast is an option, but I have no field experience with these. I have a box of Cast Performance in 420 gr. but again, everything is theoretical. Looking for some field instances if any? At 1900 fps starting point I don't think the A frame's would expand much at any threatening range in time? Would like to start at 400 grain at least. Before anyone tells me to use a 12 gauge slug, my choice is already the guide-gun, why?, because I already have it.
I use a 350 grain hardcast from an NOE ranchndog style mold in my 45/70. Never used it on bear, but I have used a 300 grain hardcast in my 444 marlin, again from an NOE ranchndog style mold in a couple of DLP situations with grizzly. Performance is about as good as it gets in my book. You will have two holes, that I can promise you.
The hard cast is an option, but I have no field experience with these. I have a box of Cast Performance in 420 gr. but again, everything is theoretical. Looking for some field instances if any? At 1900 fps starting point I don't think the A frame's would expand much at any threatening range in time? Would like to start at 400 grain at least. Before anyone tells me to use a 12 gauge slug, my choice is already the guide-gun, why?, because I already have it.
I use a 350 grain hardcast from an NOE ranchndog style mold in my 45/70. Never used it on bear, but I have used a 300 grain hardcast in my 444 marlin, again from an NOE ranchndog style mold in a couple of DLP situations with grizzly. Performance is about as good as it gets in my book. You will have two holes, that I can promise you.
The hard cast is an option, but I have no field experience with these. I have a box of Cast Performance in 420 gr. but again, everything is theoretical. Looking for some field instances if any? At 1900 fps starting point I don't think the A frame's would expand much at any threatening range in time? Would like to start at 400 grain at least. Before anyone tells me to use a 12 gauge slug, my choice is already the guide-gun, why?, because I already have it.
I use a 350 grain hardcast from an NOE ranchndog style mold in my 45/70. Never used it on bear, but I have used a 300 grain hardcast in my 444 marlin, again from an NOE ranchndog style mold in a couple of DLP situations with grizzly. Performance is about as good as it gets in my book. You will have two holes, that I can promise you.
What velocity are you using with those 300s?
Right at 2000 fps. The 444 is an under appreciated cartridge. In my experience it will do anything the 45/70 will do with less recoil, and it shoots flatter.
The hard cast is an option, but I have no field experience with these. I have a box of Cast Performance in 420 gr. but again, everything is theoretical. Looking for some field instances if any? At 1900 fps starting point I don't think the A frame's would expand much at any threatening range in time? Would like to start at 400 grain at least. Before anyone tells me to use a 12 gauge slug, my choice is already the guide-gun, why?, because I already have it.
I use a 350 grain hardcast from an NOE ranchndog style mold in my 45/70. Never used it on bear, but I have used a 300 grain hardcast in my 444 marlin, again from an NOE ranchndog style mold in a couple of DLP situations with grizzly. Performance is about as good as it gets in my book. You will have two holes, that I can promise you.
What velocity are you using with those 300s?
Right at 2000 fps. The 444 is an under appreciated cartridge. In my experience it will do anything the 45/70 will do with less recoil, and it shoots flatter.
I agree. I had a fairly light taper Marlin TK .30-30 rebored and find I get .45-70-like performance in a handier rifle. I've used a 300gr WFN on deer and now have some A-Frames to try. I may just go back to the cast bullets since there was nothing wrong with the wound channels I was getting with those.
I've had three or four Marlin .45-70s before. I like what they do on game, but found the bulk of the forearms and barrels unnecessary for my purposes. The 1895CBA with the 18" octagon barrel looks to have some potential but the one I handled in a store was rough and the wood was gappy. In the end I'm pleased with my .444
Looking for a good expanding bullet at low velocity for bear protection. 400 grain range.
What TheKid says about the 400 grain Speer is true but if you want low velocity and expansion, it may indeed be a good choice. Back when I had a SS Marlin Guide Gun my load of choice was the 400 grain speer, 52 grains of H4895, WW brass, and Fed 210 primers. It was good for 0.6 inches at 100 yards for 3 shots. The only thing I ever shot with it was a deer. Bullet was not recovered. It was broadside, knocked the aorta off the heart. The exit was pretty small .. not sure how much it expanded, but that's a pretty dang soft target.
Tom
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
Looking for a good expanding bullet at low velocity for bear protection. 400 grain range.
What TheKid says about the 400 grain Speer is true but if you want low velocity and expansion, it may indeed be a good choice. Back when I had a SS Marlin Guide Gun my load of choice was the 400 grain speer, 52 grains of H4895, WW brass, and Fed 210 primers. It was good for 0.6 inches at 100 yards for 3 shots. The only thing I ever shot with it was a deer. Bullet was not recovered. It was broadside, knocked the aorta off the heart. The exit was pretty small .. not sure how much it expanded, but that's a pretty dang soft target.
Tom
I might try some on wet phone books. If I can get my hands on some Barnes originals I will give those a try too. In the end you just never know anyway, it is all theory until it's happening. I just don't want it to happen.
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/0YGjyjw/Barnes-400-grain.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/88jRQjp/IM000073-JPG.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/8712S66/Uberti-1886-1.jpg)