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Looking for a good expanding bullet at low velocity for bear protection. 400 grain range.
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Oscar Wilde~~
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I researched this issue a fair bit for my .444 and decided on a 300gr A-Frame. I've still not killed anything with this bullet but it bids fair to do well. They post pics on their site showing expansion at various velocities.
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What you want is a Hardcast flat nosed bullet with a .280 to .350 meplat. My personal favorite in my Marlin Cowboy 45-70 is a 480 grain bullet out of a Lyman 457121PH mold over 38.5 grains of 3031. Low recoil and cycles through the Marlin like it is greased. It will shoot through and through any bear in Alaska from any angle. I have taken buffalo, elk, wildebeast, zebra and a lot of smaller animals with this bullet out of a 45-70 and have yet to recover a bullet. This bullet is a stone cold , accurate killer at the 1350 fps velocity of this load. As my PH in South Africa said, that load "kills them DEAD!"
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Just use a 405 Gov slug and don't sweat expansion. With a near 1/2 hole, ones bears should be quite safe.
1Minute
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The hard cast is an option, but I have no field experience with these. I have a box of Cast Performance in 420 gr. but again, everything is theoretical. Looking for some field instances if any?
At 1900 fps starting point I don't think the A frame's would expand much at any threatening range in time? Would like to start at 400 grain at least. Before anyone tells me to use a 12 gauge slug, my choice is already the guide-gun, why?, because I already have it.
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go
Oscar Wilde~~
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Yes, I have a few Cast Performance bullets, they seem hard as a rock though. Within close quarters they would pass right through I think with the animal still charging, unless a head shot was present.
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go
Oscar Wilde~~
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Yes, I have a few Cast Performance bullets, they seem hard as a rock though. Within close quarters they would pass right through I think with the animal still charging, unless a head shot was present. Absolutely nothing wrong with a pass-through.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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The 400 Speer is soft as chewing gum, it will expand wide at 1900fps. The 350 Swift is designed for 45/70 speeds and will expand at any reasonable range. Up close the front section may lose some weight but not much. The 350 Hornady will also expand at 45/70 speeds, it’s billed as a 458 bullet but I’ve had it come apart at 458 speeds.
I’m a little confused by your concern of bullets not expanding in time? Are you indicating you’re worried the bullets will zip through without having a chance to open due to the close range and higher velocity? If that’s what you mean you have no need to worry, the faster a bullet is traveling when it hits the quicker and wider it will expand. If that’s not what you meant then disregard as I’m just confused.
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Kid
(I’m a little confused by your concern of bullets not expanding in time? Are you indicating you’re worried the bullets will zip through without having a chance to open due to the close range and higher velocity?) Yes, I was questioning expansion and it's merits on killing power. Strictly, a self defense situation I'm referring to. Bigger holes causing more damage.
I really like the A frames, do they carry a 400 grain for the .458? Heard something about lever-action bullets from one of these company's. I have envisioned a charging bear within 30 yards and gave some serious thought as how bullet performance would come into play. Quick expanding, tough, heavy bullets.
Like 1 minute mentioned, "Just use a 405 Gov slug". I believe he was speaking of Remington bullets.
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go
Oscar Wilde~~
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Kid
(I’m a little confused by your concern of bullets not expanding in time? Are you indicating you’re worried the bullets will zip through without having a chance to open due to the close range and higher velocity?) Yes, I was questioning expansion and it's merits on killing power. Strictly, a self defense situation I'm referring to. Bigger holes causing more damage.
I really like the A frames, do they carry a 400 grain for the .458? Heard something about lever-action bullets from one of these company's. I have envisioned a charging bear within 30 yards and gave some serious thought as how bullet performance would come into play. Quick expanding, tough, heavy bullets.
Like 1 minute mentioned, "Just use a 405 Gov slug". I believe he was speaking of Remington bullets.
Yes, Swift makes a 400 gr .458 flatnose.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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I don’t think the 400 Swift will cycle through a Marlin, nose is too long. The 350 was designed for the 45/70 and has a short nose. Kodiak was about the only company making a really tough 400 for the 45/70 but now he’s passed and I don’t know if anyone is going to pick up the business. The old heavy jacket Barnes Original was a fairly stout bullet but who knows if you can find some.
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Before he passed Karl Melkie who was the owner of Alaska Bullet Works told me the guides in Alaska preferred the 405 grain version of his bonded 45-70 bullet. That and his 350 grain version featured heavy jackets and have a good reputation in Alaska. Alas, they are no longer being made.
If I was looking for a good 45-70 bullet for elk, moose, bison and bears I would look at the 405 grain Woodleigh, Barnes original or 350 grain Swift A Frame. There are some smaller custom bullet makers such as North Fork, Cutting Edge, etc. Others prefer hard cast heavies, which definitely penetrate, I am just not experienced with them and wonder about their permanent wound channel.
My 45-70 is a customized Marlin 1895 that weighs about 7.5 pounds and kicks harder then any mule!
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Yes, I have a few Cast Performance bullets, they seem hard as a rock though. Within close quarters they would pass right through I think with the animal still charging, unless a head shot was present. Absolutely nothing wrong with a pass-through. Goin' with Sitka deer on this one. 380gr WFN copper solids and 405-420gr WFN hardcast are my choices for my six .45-70s. I do alternate 305 gr Lehigh Penetrators in the mix. Medium velocity is recommended by most .45-70 users.
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Barnes Buster in 400 grain?
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go
Oscar Wilde~~
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I have to say, my marlin guide with the 420 grain Cast is also, very stout in recoil.
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go
Oscar Wilde~~
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The Barnes Buster is a hard cast flat nose with a jacket. It’s not made to expand. Cheaper to go with cast unless you absolutely cannot get your rifle to shoot them.
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Don't ask me about my military service or heroic acts...most of it is untrue.
Pronoun: Yes, SIR !
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Joined: May 2013
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What you want is a Hardcast flat nosed bullet with a .280 to .350 meplat. My personal favorite in my Marlin Cowboy 45-70 is a 480 grain bullet out of a Lyman 457121PH mold over 38.5 grains of 3031. Low recoil and cycles through the Marlin like it is greased. It will shoot through and through any bear in Alaska from any angle. I have taken buffalo, elk, wildebeast, zebra and a lot of smaller animals with this bullet out of a 45-70 and have yet to recover a bullet. This bullet is a stone cold , accurate killer at the 1350 fps velocity of this load. As my PH in South Africa said, that load "kills them DEAD!" Sounds like a performer.
Last edited by Adk_BackCountry; 08/27/20.
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go
Oscar Wilde~~
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Timely thread. I just picked up a box of Swift factory 45-70 ammo with the 350 A Frame. I hope I never find out how well they work for brown bear defense. They are for use in a shared rifle, with some of the users not up for the recoil of the hottest loads. I see Buffalo Bore loads a 430 hard cast at 1550 and considered that one as well. I'll happily leave the bears alone if they will agree to the same.
Last edited by WMR; 08/29/20.
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Since Nosler discontinued the 45 Partition, I'd go with the Swift 350. It will penetrate and expand. 55 grains of 3031 is a great place to start.
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