Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns The wrong gun & the wrong training?

This thread is hilarious to me, because IIRC several years ago I was scorned by the majority in a thread here on this forum for suggesting that maybe new shooters should be trained first with an auto, partly because modern autos were arguably just as reliable and partly because they are easier to shoot well. I still hold to that opinion. Nice to see more now appear willing to accept it.




I'll give you two. A revolver requires no confirmation of reliability with untested factory loads. It's not a common issue these days, but we still mostly recommend a chosen carry round to undergo the usual "200 rounds with no malfunction". And sometimes during ammo shortages, 38 spl is the only thing on the shelf.

Doesn't normally apply to you, me, or anyone else who takes gun carrying seriously - but those are legitimate reasons for some.

I tailor to the individual student...

The problem with most instructors is that come in with the preconceived notion that because it works for them it has to work for everybody...and that isn't only talking about guns, but about stance, grip, kind of sight, holster...

Most "instructors"(not) just let students keep shooting and shooting until they get it right....most never do. LE instructors, most of whom aren't much more than a range officer, just have an officer who fails qualification keep shooting time after time till they make it...why, because they have no clue how to analyze what the officer is doing wrong and show the officer how to correct it.

As to guns, between what I have and my friends will let me borrow, there isn't much one of my students can't try before they invest. I don't steer a person in any direction... The guns will disqualify themselves as too big, too small, too complicated, too much recoil and so on...

Just started last Saturday with two young couples two of whom are the children of two of my students from 15 years ago. They have already purchased their guns and made pretty sound choices...now it is up to me to optimize their choices...but they will learn the basics on a .22 revolver...

Bob

Good insight, Bob.
Having worked with the US Army Marksmanship Unit taught me the importance of having an instructor who can properly analyze what's causing an individual to shoot poorly and help correct it in a way that works for THAT individual.

I can't comment on what current instructor schools are doing. I can tell you that for the past 30 years, the better law enforcement firearms instructor development schools included shooter error diagnosis and correction as part of their curriculum. If you can't do that, you're not an instructor at all.

And I'll agree with the comments that the instructor has to take into account an individual's strengths and weaknesses when sorting out a problem. There are no one-size-fits-all Solutions

Going with my usual concealed carry and larger and higher capacity backup weapon to simplify reloading when needed...or vice versa.

I'll go ahead and add my obligatory dissension.

There actually is a right way to hold a gun. There actually are better holsters and better sighting systems. There are outliers in anything. But there are ways to stand and hold a gun and look at a gun and handle a gun that work for 99.9% of the population, barring some bizarre physical deformity or disability.

A good instructor doesn't walk up to each student wondering what will work for them, because "do what works for you". A good instructor wastes his life away figuring out what's best so his students can skip to (near) the top of the mountain he had to climb without all that effort and heartache.

I've trained with some of the objectively best shooters on the planet and when it comes to how to stand, hold the gun, what sights to put on the gun, and how to look at those sights, they all agree. And it's not just wrong, it's irresponsible to tell Billy Bob from down the street that whatever crazy thing he came up is likely as good as what the best on the planet are doing.

When the shooter chooses the proper tools for the job/mission, never violates safety rules and never misses the target at selected distances...*then* the "instructor" becomes superfluous.

He started picking out his clothes this summer. 😂

Agreed

To Blue and JWP....not to get into it with you guys, again, but was just wondering...

Are you NRA certified instructors?

How many FORMAL certified classes have you been chief instructor for, done the classroom instruction or been on the line as an instructor...

Just wondering...Bob

Do you really want to go down this road?

Are we talking EVER, or do you want a more recent number like “in the last five years”?

No, we don't don't want to travel down that road - we can stop at "are you an NRA certified instructor?"

That is the question...are you an NRA Certified Instructor...

My number is 17929XXX...I know it by heart as I have put it on 1000+ certificates. I used to belong to a club that ran 4-5 Basic Pistol, 2 Basic Shotgun, 2 Personal Protection, one Basic Rifle and 2-3 Home Firearms Safety classes a year. 10-20 students per class. I was at every class except for some of the Basic Shotgun and Home Firearms Safety classes....

I was also a NRA Training Counselor for 8 years certifying instructors for the NRA...

In addition I ran 4-5 tactical shooting sessions a month from 1993 to 2013 at the same club and still run 6-8 classes a year to advanced students at a private range.

At another club I ran a women's only day long rifle/pistol/shotgun class every summer for 13 years...

Just started four new pistol shooters last Saturday...

...and you sir...

No, I’m not. In fact, the notion that “NRA Instructor” is your standard is pretty amusing.

So I guess it would be good to do this. I’ll start working on my shooting related CV. You’re welcome to do the same and we’ll all meet here again this afternoon to measure cyber dicks.

No, no, no.... you had several questions about how many classes and how many students.

Let’s all answer all of those.

There are some very good instructor schools besides NRA, folks. FBI and the some military combat schools come immediately to mind.

Then there is the level of instruction... basic handgun safety instructor schools are not the same as law enforcement instructor schools.

Blue and I don't always agree but I'm pretty sure he is a LE instructor. He can answer for himself.

I have questions too.

Were Ed McGivern, Jerry, Elmer, the Topperweins,Munden, Annie, John Wesley and Jordan trained by certified instructors?

Did Kareem take a skyhook course?

MO...with all due respect sir, we are talking about Basic firearms instruction, not advanced combat classes.

Ever been to the world class SIG Academy? The head of the Academy when it started out was Bank Miller...a friend of mine. I've taken the week long Tactical Pistol Instructor Course (Instructor level course to teach instructors how to transition officers from revolvers to semi-autos), Low Light Firing Course and their two day ammunition effectiveness class.

Over the years I had several of their Basic Pistol Students take the NRA BP Course...I noted that none of them were very good shots initially. One of the at the time "older" couples came up to me as raved that they could not believe they "had their own instructors" while on the line...I thought this was "odd". A few years later I found out why he had made this statement...

In 2013 one of my beginning tactical students opened Granite State Range in Hudson, NH. He wanted me to be his head of training and while I would have loved to take the job it was an hour and fourtyfive minute drive from my house and I didn't want to move to that area of the state. So instead I interviewed candidates for the position for him.

One of the guys was a sergeant for a local PD who was their chief firearms instructor and just happened to be an instructor at SIG on those weekends when all their big name instructors were off representing the company at shoots or trade shows. So I ask about the classes...9-16 students...he does all the classroom work... On the range...if they have over 10 students he gets an assistant!!!!! 10/1 student/instructor ratio... And that's why none of their people who came to my classes could shoot to the $150 they paid for the SIG class...

And it hasn't changed. Two summers ago a friend who helped out on the line at the clubs courses took his two daughters to SIG for their Basic class... On the range..9 students, one instructor. And the guns for these new students many of whom had never fired a handgun before... 9mm SIG pistols....shot about 50 rounds....really... Three hours in the classroom and three on the range. What they were taught was how to safely make noise... At $150 a piece.

The NRA classes...1/1 on line instruction. 100-150 rounds of .22 ammo and another 50 rounds of centerfire over the course of two days/16 hours for a whole $75.00.

Hope other big name academies are a little better....

Hawk...you are talking about the 1%ers... I'm talking about the other 99%...

I know you are, but I think "fundamentals", while important, take a back seat to practice.

The 1% invented a lot.