Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns .38 Special High Speed

Doing some reading and I'm kinda wishing this cartridge never went away. I get it, after .357 it was superfluous, but the factory loading went on for a couple decades after the .357 and it's kinda sad it went away. It's still much more potent than .38 Special +P, and not far off of .357.

.38 High Speed will tear the crap out of a Colt Police Positive, and to a lesser degree, the S&W M&P. But the post war M&P's can handle it just fine, and any of the medium to larger frame Colts could handle it quite well. For a pre-WWII LE carry gun, the Colt Official Police with High Speed loads was a pretty slick setup.

For the stouter .38 Specials like the SAA, Colt's New Service, and S&W's Heavy Duty, the .38 High Speed made for a decent load in the field, and could easily do anything a .357 magnum could do.

Looking at old 1930's ammunition catalogs, there were a surprising number of loads available for the High Spee. LSWCHP's, Semi-Wadcutter, Round nose, FMJ, Metal Piercing, and even some light bullet speed demons in the 110-125gr range. It was a legit cartridge at one point.

For handloaders, the High Speed is still an option. But it would be cool to see a return to the original 158gr loading at 1150fps from the factory as a defensive load. The only revolvers it's not safe in are crap revolvers to begin with and probably marginal for even +P.

I agree! There is a sweet spot in 158 grs. of bullet running about 1050 +/- a few fps in a medium frame .38 Special. Something more than a typical +P load and less than the .357 Magnum. You can get it from expensive boutique loaders like Underwood and Buffalo Bore. I wish I had a safe handload in that range that wouldn't shake my M15 apart.

I can't recall the date, but sometime after WWII, S&W started using the same cylinder steel as their magnums on all revolvers. I wanna say it was late 1950's. So if you have an M15 that was made after say 1960, it can take the High Speed loads just fine. Now it's still a K frame, just like the M19 so you can't go a zillion rounds, but it will handle the .38 High Speed every bit as well as the M19 can handle magnums.

In fact, at the Bill Davis service center, when we weren't building PPC guns, we did a LOT of .38 Special to .357 magnum conversions of M10's and M15's... And I mean a LOT...I can't recall one week we didn't do at least one. Funny thing is, seemed like a lot of conversions to me, yet I rarely ever encounter a converted revolver...oh well.

All that is to say, you're not going to hurt a model 15 without going WAY out of your way to do it.

I load a 158gr LSWC on top of 6gr of Unique in a .357 case and get about that same velocity. It's been my go to load for the .357 for years.

wasn’t that a 38/44? I have a load in my K frames and Ruger SP101 (38 spl only) that duplicates that.

I worked up a short ladder with Herco and 158gr cast. 5.4 to 6gr in .38spl cases. I got 3lbs of Herco from Grafs on sale for $19.99 per lb and was trying to get that 1Kfps or a little more. Speer #11 and Hornady #II list 5.9 to 6.1gr loads with 158gr. This Herco is not the new cleaner type and I am getting lube and carbon residue. I fired these in a LCRX and though strong they were not painful. All empty cases ejected with gentle thumb pressure and gave no pressure signs even though I was using Rem #1 1/2 primers which are known to have soft cups. I regard 5.4 to be +P and I don't intend to go above 6gr. I would not hesitate to use these loads in my LCRX or S&W M15-3 for HD, SD or carry. I did not use an overly firm crimp as I was just trying to get a feel for this powder but will try a more aggressive crimp in the future to see if that will clean it up a little. I don't recommend these loads and they are above recent book maximums so use caution if you decide to play...........

Tell me, smallfry what is your load if I may ask?

One of my favorite chapters in revolver history. I’m a big fan of the 38 Special and my favorite guns for it are the large frame revolvers. I have both a 4” HD and a 6.5” OD and they see a good bit of warm 38 loads. I generally don’t load them to the gills but I do have a couple loads that run 1050fps or so that I shoot all the time.

I’ve long been fascinated by all the different HiSpeed loads that were offered but it seems that they were largely overshadowed with the introduction of the “Magnum”. The old gun mags were so a flutter over the 357 for so long that the 38/44 was rarely mentioned.

38/44 was the name of S&W's revolver, and how S&W referred to the load. Colt called it the .38 Colt Special High Speed. Remington loaded both Colt and S&W "heavy duty/high speed", both were basically the same loads, but in different boxes. Peters called it the "high velocity" load. Winchester-Western called it the Super-X, although it was kinda half way between +P and HV.

S&W introduced the cartridge along with their revolver for the new cartridge. Colt chambered the New Service and they were good to go, but as it turns out their medium frame revolvers (E/I frame) were more than enough to handle the heavy loads (they could handle full magnum loads quite honestly). The cartridge was much more popular in the large frame guns as recoil was a bit stiff. The border patrol almost immediately adopted the new cartridge in the Colt New Service over their .45 ACP new service revolvers because the officers shot the .38's better...and they had more flexibility, people who couldn't handle the heavier loads could just use standard pressure .38 Special.

If I ever come across a .38-44 Heavy Duty that hasn't been reamed out to .357 and is in good shooter shape, but not ridiculously high collector condition, preferably 5" blue, it's going home with me.

My 90 year old mentor/ friend has a slew of neat vintage pistols, and when he asked me which I would like to have some day I replied " the .34/44 Smith". (Well, that and the Walther PP .22 Sport 6" barrel. Google it.) It seems when graduated college in '52 he went West from Queens, NY, and took a job as a ranch hand. Straight into some Wyoming town or another he went to outfit himself. In the emporium he bought a Stetson, boots, and the .38/44 - and walked out wearing all three. It's a sweet shooter.

2 loads, HS-6 and 2400. Will sling a 158 cast @1050 out a 2.25” SP101 (a 38 special only SP101). Huge fan of the 38 special but loading them up hot isn’t something I do much. It would be interesting to pressure test these loads however, I have my doubts they are far off from a max pressure +p. I doubt most +p is loaded to +p. It’s just a hunch but being that we are quite the litigiousness society I doubt it.

The latest Sierra manual gives +P 38 Special load with 158s at 1150-1200fps. and 170s to 1100 out of their 5.5 inch receiver.

There is no earthy reason in adequate revolvers the 38 Special cant be loaded to 3/4 the pressure level of the 9mm Federal rimmed without a hitch.

I generally use 5.5 grs Lonshot and a 172 cast bullet for the 38/44 HD, Outdoorsman and the 8 3/4 inch 14, although Ive used 10.5 grs. 2400 in all and the Colt OMM with the same bullet.

Other than the 357 making more noise and racket, the 38 case is perfectly adequate, plus all those 38's handle that bullet where many 357s wont. Rugers, Smith L frames and K frames do.

An old S&W ad from, presumably, the late 40's, for the 2" M&P (the gun shown is a "long action", made prior to 1949, as I recall. After that the "speed hammer" with the lower spur was used). If you can't read the picture, it says "The .38 S&W Special cartridge, for which this revolver is chambered, is the most famous of all hand arm cartridges. The ballistic tables list it as developing, with its 158 grain bullet, 960 foot-seconds of muzzle velocity, and 320 foot-pounds of muzzle energy, while the .38/44 S & W Special cartridge, which this revolver will safely handle, shows 1125 foot-seconds velocity and 425 foot-pounds energy, and will penetrate over twelve 7/8-inch boards...."

The lawyers would never allow S&W to say this today, but at the time, it was considered perfectly fine to shoot .38 Heavy Duty loads in an M&P (though recoil would be sharper, for sure). Note also the "standard velocity" 158 gr loads were as fast, or faster than the feared "+P" today!!!

Note also the recommendation of the sharp-shouldered wadcutter bullet for defense.





If you want .38/44 ammo, go to Buffalo Bore or Underwood. Good stuff.

Can't afford to shoot ammo at from $1.00 to $2.00 per round with shipping and tax. Have to load my own........

By the way most generic factory .38spl and loading manuals is just over 16,000psi and most .38spl+p is loaded to just over 17,000 to 18,500psi. check it out. The Federal 147gr +P+ only went @975fps. How much above +P do you think it was loaded........

We've been having this same discussion over on the Cast Boolit Forums and there seems to be mixed reactions as to how much a .38 Special can/should be pushed. GunGeek did an excellent post over there on velocities and pressures.

But of course just like the situation with the .38 Super being able to be used in the 1903 Colt Automatic, the Big3 ammo manufacturers always err on the side of caution (liability) when it comes to ammo pressure. In this case there would probably be a major question as to the J-frame Smiths (especially the stadard alminum AirWeight) being able to handle the loads. There are WAY more Js out there than 1903 Colts to worry about and you know that this ammo is going to end up in an old J one of these days. And think of the number of imports, Charter Arms and a lot more small frame .38s. There has to be a pretty good concern as the smaller high performance ammo companies like Buffalo Bore and CorBon think nothing of jacking up a .38 Super to its full potential where as their 158 .38 Special loads barely make +P+ let alone .38-44 velocities... This is going to be a handloading proposition forever...

I didn't have a lot of appreciation for the round either until a few years ago when I purchased my first Heavy Duty...it's a 1952 4"...





Back when I started shooting handguns in 1970 I used a Lyman/Thompson 358156 in a Model 19 for 95% of my shooting. Since getting this gun I've picked up a MP mold that casts both HPs and solids as well as a non-gas checked version that just throws solids....so I have come full circle...

Only load for now is 6.0 grains of UNIQUE which is supposed to be about 1000 fps from a 4". I've shot the load is a Model 67 and a 649 and it does fine... Eventually I'll work up something heavier with 2400 or AAC-9 as there are loads over on Load Data.com that run into the 1200s with those powders..

As to factory Hi-Speed .38s becoming available commercially...don't hold your breath...

Bob

ps..in looking at the Underwood ammo, they do have a 158 going 1160 fps...but don't specify the barrel length. Buffalo Bore is just as hot so apparently some of the high performance makers are making that ammo available...

Excellent post, GunGeek. And a lot of great info followed.


Tagged.

When S&W came out with their N-Frame .38 Special models (designed to digest the .38/44 loading), i.e., the Outdoorsman and Heavy Duty models, which is basically like the High Speed .38 Special, Colt immediately consulted their gunsmiths and determined that their "41 Frame" Official Police was more than up to the hot new .38/44 loading, and advertised it as such, so as to be competitive with S&W's new offering, but in a lighter weight gun.

Nice Heavy Duty, RJM.

So which guns are "safe" and which are not for the High Speed...

So as stated before, earlier S&W's used a different grade of steel and had different heat treating from that of the later "magnum" cylinders. Still, even an early J frame is not likely to have a catastrophic failure as the High Speed loads are very similar to a proof load. The issue is the level of safety beyond that which makes it a bad idea, and of course...the rest of the revolver. S&W made a calculated move with the 38/44 expecting that catastrophic failures were unlikely even in very early revolvers, and they were right (mostly). 5 shot J frames actually have a stronger cylinder than the K frames due to the offset cylinder bolt. Still, while the cylinder may not give way, the rest of the revolver just can't take it, and eventually you'll crack the frame under the crane...That goes for both J & K frame pre-war guns.

Colt's cylinders were full heat treated and there were no issues. Colt immediately "certified" all their .38 Special revolvers for the High Speed, including the Police Positive Special. And again, while the cylinder could handle the pressures just fine, the frame would break in exactly the same place as the S&W's. The medium frame Official Police and Officer's Model could handle all the High Speed you could throw at it.

So I'd steer away from the High Speed loads with the following...

Pre-War S&W J and K frames.
J frames made before the mid '80's (I can't recall the actual date that S&W certified all their J frames for +P)
Colt Police Positive and all the "D" frame revolvers on up to the mid '80's.
Charter Arms made before the '2000's