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Can't have a rational argument with someone who admittedly lives in fantasy land. The rest of it doesn't make any difference to me. If you're looking for sympathy because you feel that your physical appearance doesn't match your towering intellect, you'll find it in the dictionary between sh*t and syphilis. Actually, it's not all about you. It's mostly about the people you continually make disparaging remarks about.

You said in another post that you love your country. Do you love it enough to forgive it and help it recover?


Go tell the Spartans,Travelers passing by,That here,Obedient to their laws we lie.

I'm older now but I'm still runnin' against the wind


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Actually, it's not all about you. It's mostly about the people you continually make disparaging remarks about.

People I make disparaging remarks about? Please--to whom are you referring?

Oh--politicians? You're concerned that I make disparaging remarks about politicians?? Chuckle. C'mon--can you seriously think of some response appropriate to politicians other than disparagement?* (Perhaps, "He was young! He needed the money!"?) If you can, then I guess you're right: it's tough to have a rational argument with someone who admittedly lives in fantasy land.

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You said in another post that you love your country. Do you love it enough to forgive it and help it recover?

Forgive it? Forgive it for what? My country has never sinned against me. It can't sin: it's an idea, bequeathed to us at great cost by great men. I (and you, and he, and they over there by that tree) have sinned against it by succumbing to our cowardice and electing politicians who are worthy of nothing but disparagement,* and then by cowering in craven acquiescence to their demands and their presumption.

* The honorable Dr. Ron Paul hastily excepted, of course.


"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain--that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." --Lysander Spooner, 1867
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Forgive it? Forgive it for what? My country has never sinned against me. It can't sin: it's an idea, bequeathed to us at great cost by great men. I (and you, and he, and they over there by that tree) have sinned against it by succumbing to our cowardice and electing politicians who are worthy of nothing but disparagement,* and then by cowering in craven acquiescence to their demands and their presumption.


Here you go again. You just can't seem to grasp the fact that the government is just as much a part of your country as you are: just as much a part of your country as your nose is a part of your face.

Our country is the sum total of all it's parts. That would include the military, the politicians, "I (and you and he and they over there by that tree)," et al. You don't get to pick and choose this part and that part because those are the parts that you approve of and like and leave everything that you don't approve of or like out.

If you don't like the path that our country is going down what are you doing to correct that?


Go tell the Spartans,Travelers passing by,That here,Obedient to their laws we lie.

I'm older now but I'm still runnin' against the wind


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Our country is the sum total of all it's parts. That would include the military, the politicians, "I (and you and he and they over there by that tree)," et al. You don't get to pick and choose this part and that part because those are the parts that you approve of and like and leave everything that you don't approve of or like out.

We seem to be talking past each other. Even the likes of politicians understand the differences between a country and its government and its military: that's why they were trying to shoot soldiers and politicians in Iraq but not civilians.

The vision of individual liberty that our forefathers had is what I love. It is imperfectly codified in the Constitution, was somewhat less perfectly (but still with good faith and honest effort) implemented by George Washington and company, and then brutally gang-raped by our present government and its political ancestors back at least to Abraham Lincoln--as we and our political ancestors stood by and watched, some of us even cheering them on.

(No, I'm not one of those Constitution-as-Holy-Scripture libertarians. As Lysander Spooner said, "Either [the Constitution] has allowed such a government as we now have, or it has been powerless to prevent it.")

If you're defining "country" differently than I am, then it will be useless for you to assume that I love it the way you have defined it simply because I have claimed to love it the way I defined it.

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If you don't like the path that our country is going down what are you doing to correct that?

I've gone into this in more depth elsewhere on this site, so I won't go into the whole thing again, but I believe that in the current climate lovers of liberty should have two main priorities: First, to acquire militarily serviceable guns and ammunition off paper and protect them against the coming confiscations. Second, to teach succeeding generations about liberty wherever and whenever possible.

Voting? Well, yes, I still vote, but mostly I have lost faith in its effectiveness. (No matter whom you vote for, the government always wins.) Donating money to political action groups? Well, I still do that too, but again, the very largest effect one can possibly hope for is to delay the inevitable crisis, and time is decidedly on the government's side: delay will only make the crisis bigger. Preach? Persuade? Orate? Well, as you know, I do that too; but I also despair of the effectiveness of that. Compared to giants like L. Neil Smith, Vin Suprynowicz, Claire Wolfe, Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and others, I'm less than an insect: and the combined horsepower of all those plus others has not succeeded in waking up enough Americans for the libertarian vote to break 5% in a Presidential election year. If you're going to turn people's hearts toward liberty, I think you probably have to do it when they're very young. Run for office? Yeah, right. What a tremendous waste of time, money, and intelligence--and there's always the slight danger that I might accidentally win, and put myself squarely in the crosshairs of people like me.

So I'm doing the two things I think are important. I'll keep doing them, and eventually I'll be arrested and thrown in prison or killed like everyone else who refuses to be a slave. It's the least I can do for the founders who did so much for me.


"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain--that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." --Lysander Spooner, 1867
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I've never been in the standing military, only in the militia. Can somebody who has been in the standing military explain to me what the big deal is about supporting the troops? I mean, they're professionals with a job to do, right? I don't mean to offend anybody, but if they are professionals, should our support really matter to them?

For example: I'm a professional software developer. I'm paid to do a job too. (One difference is that I'm compensated with money that somebody willingly chose to pay me in exchange for the exercise of my talents, rather than with money that was forcibly extorted from people by a government agency whether or not those people advocated that particular use of the money; that may or may not be relevant here.) How many of you folks support me? Have any of you sent me care packages or mail expressing your hopes and encouragement that I'll be able to bear up under the stress of my job and overcome its obstacles?



You are correct I am sure no one has sent you any care packages. We in the military are professionals, just as you are. But if you stopped being a computer programmer tomorrow, they would hire another. If they couldn't find enough programmers, I am sure they would up the salary until enough people decided to go that path.

Support our troops. To me it means that you should be greatful for every jelly doughnut you eat in the morning. It doen't appear as if you could run a mile with a 50 pound pack. If there are not enough programmers, Microsoft will not start a draft. If there are not enough members in the military, you can be sure the government will start a draft. Perhaps it will be you. That is why we support the troops. We thank them for doing what many of you would not do willingly.

Yes you can go on about the military being to big, there shouldn't be a draft etc, etc. But that doesn't change the facts. Support the Troops (read) Thank GOD they picked that as a profession, I wouldn't want to give up my Starbucks and jelly doughnut in the morning. If enough people hadn't choose the military as a profession, it might be YOU.

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So then in other words what you are saying is that there is no hope for curtailing the infringement imposed by government on our personal liberty through any Constitutional means other than armed rebellion? That any attempt to correct government injustices is futile other than by armed rebellion? That politics is merely mental masterbation and meaningless as a way to effect governmental change? That in the end it all comes down to one man, one bullet rather than one man, one vote?


Go tell the Spartans,Travelers passing by,That here,Obedient to their laws we lie.

I'm older now but I'm still runnin' against the wind


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Felt somebody reading over my shoulder, which has always been able to break my chain of thought. Looked around and lo! I beheld the Energizer bunny.

"You've stopped!" I blurted in surprise.

He nodded.

"Those guys on that thread!" he said. "Sure wish I could go on and on like that. Looks like dissidence just has it all over us batteries."


"Good enough" isn't.

Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.



















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Please don't try to scare me with the prospect of a draft. A draft is nothing but slavery. If the government can't find volunteers willing to die for its objectives, then it ought to be eminently clear to all concerned that those objectives are misguided and wrong--and what is needed is less government, not more soldiers.

Trying to motivate somebody with the threat of a draft is every bit as morally bankrupt as trying to motivate somebody with the threat of any other form of slavery. I will never be drafted, and neither will any other lover of liberty.

In WWII, whether the objectives of the government were met or not might possibly have had something to do with my coffee and donuts in the morning, if I drank coffee or ate donuts, which I don't. But all the wars since then have had far more to do with projecting American imperialism than protecting American freedom--and there are people who would even argue with me about WWII.


"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain--that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." --Lysander Spooner, 1867
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So then in other words what you are saying is that there is no hope for curtailing the infringement imposed by government on our personal liberty through any Constitutional means other than armed rebellion? That any attempt to correct government injustices is futile other than by armed rebellion? That politics is merely mental masterbation and meaningless as a way to effect governmental change? That in the end it all comes down to one man, one bullet rather than one man, one vote?

I think there's one hope other than armed rebellion. Even as huge and powerful and oppressive as our government has become, it is still too small to force on us anything that a majority of the population is violently unwilling to accept. That means that if enough people become unwilling to accept the privileges and powers that the government arrogates to itself, our corrupt politicians can be further corrupted back into keeping their oaths of office rather than ignoring them.

I look with no small amount of awe on what was accomplished a few years ago by the feminist and homosexual-rights lobbies. They didn't truly convince hardly any politicians, and they killed very few people, but they did fix it so that one's days as a politician were severely numbered unless one mouthed the proper party line. By blackmailing them and threatening their jobs (and not directly through the voting process either), these two lobbies corrupted already corrupt politicians into supporting their causes.

So if enough people in this country want their liberty back, and are willing to do what is necessary to take it, it's quite possible that we could take it back without much bloodshed at all.

The question, of course, is the same as it has always been: how does the message of liberty reach and convince that many people? You, for example: you are under the impression that you already live in a free country. The government perpetrates a few minor inconveniences on you, but you're convinced that it's your duty to put up with them (because they were perpetrated by what you consider to be duly-elected politicians), and, within reason, with whatever other indignities the politicians invent (provided, of course, that they're your particular brand of politicians, rather than the other kind), and that in addition to your tax money, you should support the government in other ways as well--for example, cheering on government troops in combat regardless of who or why they're fighting. You already think you're a liberty advocate, and you dismiss anyone who says you're not as a nutcase. How can libertarians possibly wake up people like you?

The answer, I think, is not reasoned argument, but simple naked force. Most existing liberty advocates (including me) didn't get this way because one day we decided to do a little careful research into the history and the writings of the founding fathers and the great libertarian philosophers. We got this way because we found ourselves legally coerced into or out of something, and it didn't seem fair to us. (All humans have an innate sense of what's fair and what's not, that is entirely independent of custom, law, or tradition.) So we started thinking and reading and researching about what it ought to be fair for government to be able to do, and along the way we all found horrifying, appalling things that this government and others had done not because they had any right to, but simply because nobody stopped them.

I think you're the same as we used to be. For me, it was Brady II in November 1998. For you, I don't know. For now, whenever the government decides to claim it has a right to something of yours--your money, your guns, your children, your land, your car, your house, your privacy, whatever--you say to yourself, "Well, okay, they're the government; I suppose they can handle it better than I can--and besides, it's free, right?" But eventually the government will get around to claiming rights and privileges from you that even you think are unfair, and you'll begin looking around and finding out that it's not right, the government can not handle it better than you can, it's not free, and that in fact the only real difference between you and the government is that you have to do what the government says, while the government can do anything it wants because it can legally kill people.

So that's the one hope I think we have. If the government should begin trampling liberties at a little too quick a rate, or if it turns out that a little more true American blood than it had anticipated runs in the veins of the people, then suddenly there will be tens or hundreds of thousands of people demanding to know who the government thinks it is to be able to take those liberties away--and come to think of it, what about all these other liberties that have already been suppressed for years and decades? Once such a movement catches on, you could theoretically find politicians scrambling all over themselves to be the first to suggest restoring a liberty so as not to lose their jobs and have to work for a living.

A groundswell of outrage fueled by government overreach: that's my dream. But it has to happen before the government reaches the point where public opinion no longer means anything to it; once that happens, then I think we do have to kill people to get anywhere--and where we get after that will be anybody's guess. And as long as the government can keep control of itself and takes away only one small liberty at a time, and allows enough time for acclimatization before it goes after the next, that dream may never materialize.

But I'll tell you what: I'm thinking a President like Al Gore or Dick Gephardt or Hillary! Clinton might just be what we need to stimulate that groundswell of outrage.


"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain--that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." --Lysander Spooner, 1867
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The question, of course, is the same as it has always been: how does the message of liberty reach and convince that many people? You, for example: you are under the impression that you already live in a free country. The government perpetrates a few minor inconveniences on you, but you're convinced that it's your duty to put up with them (because they were perpetrated by what you consider to be duly-elected politicians), and, within reason, with whatever other indignities the politicians invent (provided, of course, that they're your particular brand of politicians, rather than the other kind), and that in addition to your tax money, you should support the government in other ways as well--for example, cheering on government troops in combat regardless of who or why they're fighting. You already think you're a liberty advocate, and you dismiss anyone who says you're not as a nutcase. How can libertarians possibly wake up people like you?


You seem to assume quite a bit about me. Actually, it seems that you are more interested in expressing your opinion than in listening to someone else's. Most of the above has been discussed previously and you've gotten most of it wrong.

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The answer, I think, is not reasoned argument, but simple naked force. Most existing liberty advocates (including me) didn't get this way because one day we decided to do a little careful research into the history and the writings of the founding fathers and the great libertarian philosophers. We got this way because we found ourselves legally coerced into or out of something, and it didn't seem fair to us. (All humans have an innate sense of what's fair and what's not, that is entirely independent of custom, law, or tradition.) So we started thinking and reading and researching about what it ought to be fair for government to be able to do, and along the way we all found horrifying, appalling things that this government and others had done not because they had any right to, but simply because nobody stopped them.


Sounds to me like you simply want to get back at the government for something that may or may not have happened to you in the past. More like revenge than the pursuit of liberty.


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I think you're the same as we used to be. For me, it was Brady II in November 1998. For you, I don't know. For now, whenever the government decides to claim it has a right to something of yours--your money, your guns, your children, your land, your car, your house, your privacy, whatever--you say to yourself, "Well, okay, they're the government; I suppose they can handle it better than I can--and besides, it's free, right?" But eventually the government will get around to claiming rights and privileges from you that even you think are unfair, and you'll begin looking around and finding out that it's not right, the government can not handle it better than you can, it's not free, and that in fact the only real difference between you and the government is that you have to do what the government says, while the government can do anything it wants because it can legally kill people.


You've stated most of this before and again you assume quite a bit and again you're wrong.

I do believe that we have found one thing that we agree on though. I think that we can agree that we disagree and probably always will.




Go tell the Spartans,Travelers passing by,That here,Obedient to their laws we lie.

I'm older now but I'm still runnin' against the wind


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You seem to assume quite a bit about me. Actually, it seems that you are more interested in expressing your opinion than in listening to someone else's.

Oh--I'm sorry. I didn't realize that presumption would be a problem with you, given your earlier facility with it in regard to autism.

I'll try to keep your sensitivities in mind in the future.


"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain--that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." --Lysander Spooner, 1867
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Oh--I'm sorry. I didn't realize that presumption would be a problem with you, given your earlier facility with it in regard to autism.


See below:

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Given that I'm autistic, sarcasm ("Yeah, I know that's why Data Programmers are smarter than Soldiers are") is also largely lost on me.


Doesn't appear to be presumtion. It appears to be a direct quote from your post in which you discribe yourself as autistic. I simply posted the dictionary definition for the benefit of those who may have been unfamiliar with the word. Here's another definition from the Merrriam/Webster Dictionary.

"Autism, Absorption in self-centered subjective mental activity (as daydreaming, fantasies, delusions, and hallucinations) esp. when accompanied by marked withdrawal from reality - autistic."

Your arguements continue to deteriorate.

Now hurry up and make another post so that you can have the last word.


Go tell the Spartans,Travelers passing by,That here,Obedient to their laws we lie.

I'm older now but I'm still runnin' against the wind


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It's okay: you can have the last word, if you like. I deserve to lose it, for succumbing to the temptation to expand the argument to include personalities.

Congratulations; you win this one. Don't get used to it, though.


"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain--that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." --Lysander Spooner, 1867
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No, I get the last word here!
This was supposed to be a board about dissent versus patriotism.
Just today I went by the offices of the Montana Wilderness Association, a Green group, and they've STILL got the No Iraq War sign in their window. Never mind that the local antiwar protests here in Montana were marshalled by, you guessed it, anti-Bush Greens and "progressives."
The argument was, it's all about oil. Never mind that our country runs on resources and ecos seem to oppose all resource production unless it's organic, which means buggy and of spotty supply and reliability.
These folks simply don't like America -- the great IDEA as I think Barak mentioned.
Fine, let them make idiots of themselves...when they come to the table later or want to do business, let's just say the relationship will be strained. They have a right to be stupid, and I have a right to treat them accordingly.
Okay, now for some dissent.
I have a HUGE problem with the USA Patriot Act, the kind of inept knee-jerk garbage that terrorist acts have the potential to tweak from the puny minds of our political betters.
And THAT's why I support the war, and our troops. The import of terror from bases overseas onto American shores is not necessarily such a physical threat, but terrorism always spawns repression in a vicious cycle.
Terrorists operate in a universe where they have no other option, such as voting, or carping on a Web board, or cussing out their Senator at a public meeting. That's why terroristic acts are so rare in America...we as citizens have other options for shaping our destinies, both individually and collectively.
Not going for the throat would have allowed Muslim terrorism to fester unchecked, and in the future we would have seen more murder and even more wasteful "security" actions. Been to an airport lately? That's just a peek at life in a police state, and I HATE it.
"Where are you traveling, sir. What's in your bag sir. What's this thing. Why are you reading that wolf report here, sir. Take off your shoes, sir. I'm sorry, sir, but this set of camera screwdrivers you've had for 20 years could be used as a weapon, so we'll have to confiscate them."
A failure to kick ass overseas, even with the problems we are now having with the Saddamites, would have only led to more of the same.
As for justification...let's put a pinko liberal media spin on this. Say some evil right wing militia kooks were training in the U.S. and heading to Tel Aviv to kill Jews or Riyadh to kill Muslims on Hajj, while the US government did nothing to stop it. Can you imagine the diplomatic crapstorm if citizens of one sovereign nation traveled to another to kill its citizens without the home country taking action to control such crime? Act of war.
The Talibs weren't doing it. Saddam took no action, and in fact supported award systems for "successful" Hamas families.
So now we have a forward operating base with rapid deployment capabilities right at the center of the terror tumor zone. Syria, Iran, and so on and so forth are blinking rapidly and casting worried glances within their borders...governments that rule by force understand that it can be used against them, too.
Not pretty, but more EFFECTIVE than the alternative.
Finally, Barak, I'm a quasi-libertarian. I have a problem with the "libertarian" purists because I believe government, especially the United States version, has a job: to protect the freedoms of the individual citizen from all encroachments, foreign and domestic, whatever the source...be it Big Brother, Big Labor, Big Religion, Big Business, Big Green, or just plain old Big Government.
Being in Iraq sucks...but not being there would have sucked worse in the long run. Thank God we have troops willing to suck it up.


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Down hills fast
Tonnage first and
Safety last.
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