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Thanks. That’s pretty general and I’m not finding anything to sink my teeth into; nothing solid. Do you have personal examples of how you have grown in knowledge and in your relationship with God outside what we find in scripture?

When I read what Paul writes in Romans 8 where he uses the word translate as predestined I see God as the actor and predestined as a verb. That gives a very different understanding of the concept, an action by God rather than God’s knowledge of something.

Without and before getting into a break down of what Paul means I have to acknowledge that Paul is saying that God, in some way, is actively involved.

I can’t remember the exact differences at the moment but Luther and Calvin differed on their understanding of predestination. Luther held the view that Christ’s work was for all mankind and not just the elect.

I’m working on memory but to the best of my recollection Augustine began studying and writing about the subject later in life and hadn’t fully worked through the matter. Both Calvin and Luther studied his work but differed in their understanding of what he was saying. This was in part because Augustine hadn’t worked all the way through but mostly because of differences in their approach to study. Calvin was more Platonic and Luther Aristotelian in technique.

So ‘you’ consider it “pretty general” and can’t find “anything” to sink your teeth into regarding the facts that early first century Christianity began as a small, despised, illicit religious sect, they were treated as criminals, and endured 300 years of empire-wide hostility and persecution, yet Christianity continued to gain adherents among both Jews and non-Jews throughout the Roman world, and ‘they are’ responsible for the survival of the faith that means so much to us today...and they did ALL of this without the Christian Bible which didn’t even exist yet...and ‘you’ find “nothing solid” about any of it...?

I encourage you to finish, you haven't made it to the meat. I'm not trying to persuade you to change your doctrine, but to know your opponent. Consider it a challenge.

FWIW, there are two pastors that I love, respect, and listen to nearly daily. RC Sproul and Ray Stedman. Ray Stedman believes in Free Will. I probably listen to him more than Sproul, even though I differ from him on Free Will. Its worth noting that John Piper studied under Ray Stedman for some time. Piper being a well respected Reformed Baptist (predestination).

I am asking you for specifics about the knowledge that you have gained and the growth in God that you have seen outside what is taught to and understood regarding scripture.

So you have no answer, or choose not to provide an answer, to ‘my’ question above...? Got it. Well earlier you asked for examples of “obtaining knowledge of God and growing spiritually” outside of Biblical guidance, and I provided you with some very real and solid examples. And you dismissed them out of hand.

Your view of the early church is very general but you offered that view as a premise for how the Christian is to operate. That being the case, and you practicing your faith through that means, you should be able to give a few (but I would anticipate a great many personal examples) personal examples of growth in knowledge about God and so forth.

My view of the early church is accurate, and I offered that view as examples of people obtaining knowledge of God and growing spiritually outside of the guidance of the Bible.

This predestination thing is really easy for me. It's like when someone starts a company. Many are called. Some are chosen (hired). (See Revelation 17:14) Some are faithful and keep their jobs. From the very beginning of the thought to have a business some were predestined to be workers and some were predestined not to be workers. No individual was predestined to be a worker. No one was predestined no to be a worker.

It seems someone already posted....... we are making this way to complicated.

So you can’t or won’t give personal examples?

This.
Pretty easy to predestine some will go to Hell rejecting Christ when they are freaking people and are given free will. Hell, some will even vote dimocrap.

How about starting a new thread soon. Maybe list 3 things you are thankful to God for. You could post numerous times. I see a great benefit there. God gets glory, & there's no debate. It's not that I haven't enjoyed reading everyone's views, but it doesn't seem to be very fruitful to argue this much further. At the moment I see everyone standing firm on this subject in their own belief.
BTW Good morning & Godbless

AMEN, narrow is the way

You’re asking for detailed and personal and very private and specific experiences and results of my life and my walk with God. I won’t.

As Biden would say, Come on Man! Then whats your advice to a new Christian? How do they grow in knowledge depart from the Bible?

It doesn't matter who says what, if the end is known from the beginning, the world and all its events are determined. That is the very definition of determinism.

That Jesus doesn’t want robots. He wants fellowship. That obtaining knowledge of God and growing spiritually isn’t ‘only’ accomplished through Bible reading. That reading the Bible isn’t the ‘only’ avenue to know the way and the truth and the life. That the Spirit of the Living God dwells inside of you, and reading the Bible isn’t the ‘only’ way to know this. Not to place ‘all’ of your faith and trust and abilities and confidence and hope in ‘only’ the Bible...rather than in the Living God Himself. To pursue and petition God through prayer, rather than ‘just’ through Bible reading. To trust that God is leading and guiding them, and not ‘only’ by reading the Bible. To ask God for wisdom and discernment, and know that He’ll provide it, other than by ‘just’ reading the Bible. That God can use circumstances...and not ‘just’ reading the Bible...to communicate with you, and provide you with wisdom to discern His hand in the circumstances. To not be motivated by fear and uncertainty, but instead by faith...and realize that it doesn’t ‘only’ come from reading the Bible. To take Jesus into consideration in whatever you do, and seek God first, and trust that the things you need in life will be added to you...and know that this isn’t ‘only’ accomplished by reading the Bible. And to seek to line up your life with God’s design, and know that God faithfully reveals the specifics of His will, and not ‘only’ by reading the Bible.

What do you do with, "There is no other name than Jesus by which we are saved,"? Could we learn that from our own minds?