Historians love the great man in history, but if you look at history, it's surprising how consistent national interests act on history.
And some, how the great leader uses that interest!
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When Germany invaded Russia, they only had half the tanks per division that they had against Poland and France. German generals wanted to get the tank strength up. It was easy to get the manpower up quickly, but German tank production couldn't double the tanks until after 1942. Had Germany waited one more year and had their tank production up, as well as more aircraft, they could have been in Moscow the first year of invasion. Moscow was the nerve center of the Russian military. Without Moscow, Russian troops could not communicate with each other. Germany could have divided and conquered the remaining Russians by the second year and been at the Urals.
Also, the Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians, and Lithuainans cheered the Germans coming in as they wanted out from under Stalin. With their support it would have been easier to get the long supply lines up and running. Instead they turned their guns on them.
Declaring war on the US after they invaded Russia was also stupid. We kept England in the war and kept the Russians supplied to fight the Germans. I think 8-10,000 Shermans went to Russia as well as Jeeps and trucks. They they loved the Tommy guns for house to house fighting. We sent them food also.
When Germany invaded Russia, they only had half the tanks per division that they had against Poland and France. German generals wanted to get the tank strength up. It was easy to get the manpower up quickly, but German tank production couldn't double the tanks until after 1942. Had Germany waited one more year and had their tank production up, as well as more aircraft, they could have been in Moscow the first year of invasion...
Germany calculated it didn't have the oil reserves to go much beyond late 41' with its existing tanks, aircraft, and other vehicles... Hence the critical [strategic] push for the Caucasus. (Case Blue)
Hitler is on record saying:
"If I don't succeed in seizing the oilfields at Maykop and Grozny I must END the war."
So Hitler knew he was rolling the dice in his ambitious eastern campaign. Wagner (quartermaster General) calculated Germany had the resources to go 500-800 km into the Ukraine prior to Barbarossa,.. the 42' push fior oilfields in the South was some 1600 km... they made that push with poor-haphazard logistics and vastly insufficient number of divisions for the strategic objectives in mind. ============
Those oilfields were important for three reasons
- The German military needed them, - The German nation and its annexed territories were in desperate need of oil. -Seizing them would deny the Soviets the oil.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
It wasn't just the oil fields, but remember Germany starved during WW1 . The grain fields of the Ukraine were very important as well. Stalingrad was protection on the flank and would cut Volga oil transportation .There were rail links and tanks could drive there. Taking Stalingrad would have worked if it was taken on the march, instead the battle ground on from the summer.
. The grain fields of the Ukraine were very important as well..
Yes, Hitler had the strategic objectives of Ukraine r for food supply and Caucasus Oil.
Hitler was desperately sourcing food from annexed territories to feed his army.. and getting his army to supplement by living off the land in the east. (which meant stealing from the poor civilians)
Originally Posted by downwindtracker2
. Stalingrad was protection on the flank and would cut Volga oil transportation..
Case Blue didnt necessarily include taking Stalingrad when gruppe B- 6th Army were attempting to form the protective flank line to Astrakhan.
Hitler did however suggest destroying Stalingrad factories with artillery .. but I read Paulus told Hitler he could take Stalingrad 'on the march'..!!
Gruppe B (6th army, Hoth 4th Panzer, XXIX Corps) had all been battered prior to Stalingrad. Paulus then got reinforcements for 6th army, but didn't get the much needed fuel and ammunition.
Occupying Stalingrad was an afterthought by Hitler, and Paulus began such objective with just a few days worth of fuel and ammunition.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
The Nazis would have lost whenever they attacked Soviet Russia. As Victor Davis Hanson said, Hitler was successful in small border wars against his neighbors and never realized that war against Russia was a different game. When he did invade Russia, his supply lines became too long and his short-range attack strategy could not destroy Soviet manufacturing far behind the lines. Later in the war, Russian forces were more mobile than German forces which relied heavily on horses. The Russians had all those American lend-lease trucks.
And once they determined there would be no attack from the Japanese an could bring the Far Eastern divisions to bear on Germany, it was all over for Hitler.
Stalin drove the machine to superior (unrivaled) tank production. Something like 2,200/mo vs Germany's estimates of 500/month.. In addition to underestimating the T-32(?). And the determination of the Russian troops/commanders.
And of course Hitler's ADD played a role.. had he not waited so late in the season.... Much might have been different.... Divine providence, perhaps.
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Hitler was not planning on invading the Soviet Union in 1941. After the fall of France, they actually converted some wartime production back to civilian products and cut shifts across the board. One reason Stalin was so surprised in June of 41 was because the Germans were so seemingly unprepared at every level. Once the knockout blow failed, the Germans were done. In fact, that they didn’t end up in a disastrous retreat back to Germany in the winter of 41-42 ala Napoleon was a minor miracle.
Hitler was well aware of the German population's lack of support during the final years of the Great War. Britain went on to total war economy in '39, US in '42.
It could have been a Retreat From Moscow if Hitler had listened to his generals, instead he said stay put and big Russian offensive failed. Because it was failure, it didn't get much fanfare. It wore down the armies on both sides.
Bottom line for Germany was invade Russia or be invaded by Russia. Stalin was preparing to invade Germany when Germany invaded Russia. I don’t think Germany could have succeeded in defeating Russia but Germany probably saved all of Western Europe from Soviet socialism. If the Soviets had invaded on their timeline and terms I think the Soviets would have swept across all of Western Europe and imposed soul crushing Bolshevik socialism. The use of the atomic bombs on the Japanese was more a demonstration and message to Stalin than a means to defeat Japan. The Japanese had already sent word that they were willing to surrender under the terms that they ultimately surrendered under before the bombs were dropped. We demanded total surrender and refused to accept terms that allowed for the continuation of the Japanese Emperor. After we dropped the bombs we accepted surrender of the Japanese with the continuation of the Emperor.
Very interesting viewpoint, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that you were entirely correct.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them." -Master Chief Hershel Davis
When Germany invaded Russia, they only had half the tanks per division that they had against Poland and France. German generals wanted to get the tank strength up. It was easy to get the manpower up quickly, but German tank production couldn't double the tanks until after 1942. Had Germany waited one more year and had their tank production up, as well as more aircraft, they could have been in Moscow the first year of invasion. Moscow was the nerve center of the Russian military. Without Moscow, Russian troops could not communicate with each other. Germany could have divided and conquered the remaining Russians by the second year and been at the Urals.
Also, the Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians, and Lithuainans cheered the Germans coming in as they wanted out from under Stalin. With their support it would have been easier to get the long supply lines up and running. Instead they turned their guns on them.
Declaring war on the US after they invaded Russia was also stupid. We kept England in the war and kept the Russians supplied to fight the Germans. I think 8-10,000 Shermans went to Russia as well as Jeeps and trucks. They they loved the Tommy guns for house to house fighting. We sent them food also.
The wehrmacht could have took Moscow and it would have made little difference. Just ask Napoleon.
Bottom line for Germany was invade Russia or be invaded by Russia. Stalin was preparing to invade Germany when Germany invaded Russia. I don’t think Germany could have succeeded in defeating Russia but Germany probably saved all of Western Europe from Soviet socialism. If the Soviets had invaded on their timeline and terms I think the Soviets would have swept across all of Western Europe and imposed soul crushing Bolshevik socialism. The use of the atomic bombs on the Japanese was more a demonstration and message to Stalin than a means to defeat Japan. The Japanese had already sent word that they were willing to surrender under the terms that they ultimately surrendered under before the bombs were dropped. We demanded total surrender and refused to accept terms that allowed for the continuation of the Japanese Emperor. After we dropped the bombs we accepted surrender of the Japanese with the continuation of the Emperor.
Very interesting viewpoint, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that you were entirely correct.
When did Japan ever offer to surrender under any terms before we dropped the bombs? They had already told their people to prepare to die for their Emperor. To sharpen their bamboo spears and form up their Banzai suicide battalions. Operation “Ketsu-Go.”- Japanese slogan in the summer of 1945. To not lose "face" was more important than hundreds and hundreds of thousands of lives.
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“In Trump We Trust.” Right????
SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
Whatever mistakes they made I'm glad they made them.
It took the USA, England and various allies from late 1942 through spring 1945 to kick the Germans out of North Africa and drive them back across Italy and Europe - we were still slogging up Italy mountain by mountain and river by river on VE day - and we never fought more than a fraction of the German army. I really can't imagine how much longer the war in Europe would have taken and how many more casualties we would have taken facing those extra 100+ divisions plus the Luftwaffe that were engaged on the Eastern front.
I've heard it said that American steel, British intelligence and Russian blood won the war. That mix is okay with me.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery. Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
Declaring war on the US after they invaded Russia was also stupid. We kept England in the war and kept the Russians supplied to fight the Germans. I think 8-10,000 Shermans went to Russia as well as Jeeps and trucks. They they loved the Tommy guns for house to house fighting. We sent them food also.
not so fast. those shermans sent to russia had thompson's in them, but NO ammo. Besides they had a perfectly aedequate smg already in service. those thompsons sat in russia for many years, eventually were moved to croatia, and then repatriated here. I was at a business in tucson a number of years ago looking at those brand new thompsons being cut and turned into parts kits. a parts kit at the time minus the "bad" parts was about 800 dollars or so as i remember. i ended up buying a thompson barrel with a cutts compensator on it for not much money.
another comment, i see the word germany being used pretty loosely, in combination with the prussia kingdom. germany as a country didn't exist until the late 1800's. it was prussia that butted up against the russian conbination. my family were prussian, and along the baltic, re gdansk, and in pomerania. still trying to find where the ancestral lands were before confiscation.
That the Soviet Union was going to attack in '41 is an alternate history, eg BS. But there had been tensions between Prussia (then Germany) and the Russian Empire for a long time. German expansion into the east had been going on for centuries. There wasn't anything new there. Germany had won the WW1 war against the Russian Empire in 1917. So they thought they could do it again, look how easy 1940 was in the west compared to 1914-1918. Seems pretty logical doesn't it.
Frederick II was lucky he was presented in the middle of the fight with a Prussian friendly new regime in St. Petersburg. Potsdam, Brandenburg, San Souci and all were spared. Then it was on to Leuthen and a route of the Austrians, Maria Theresa, and all her allies!
Lets also not forget Hohenfriedberg
thank you for that robert, makes me want to get out and march in the street. how could i forget hohenfriedberg, given great great papa's history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Heinrich_von_Wedel lots of people don't know that a lot of northern poland was once prussian, until the end of WWII when they disemboweled prussia.
