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Originally Posted by JRaw
Boxerdog,
Don't forget what KC said about using a sleeping pad on a cot. Or a wool blanket doubled over if you don't have a pad. But a closed cell foam pad is pretty cheap.

A cheap foam pad is a necessary accessory for sleeping in a bag on the ground or on a cot. Remember that a cot has no insulation unless you add some with a pad of some kind.

I recently had a discussion with and old hand. We both started camping and backpacking in warm climates a long time ago. He slept on the ground with only a tarp and claimed that I was a whimp because I used a cheap foam (Ensolite) pad. I said that I liked my luxury. We both had a chuckle over that.


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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
A cot without good insulation can be brutal. I have an insulated air mattress and put a piece of ensolite on top of that. I've slept warm down to 5 with it so far.

A couple of years ago, I backpacked into timberline at 11,000' elev. It was mid-May and a cold front was moving in. I had a down sleeping bag rated at 5°, a Thermarest air mattress and a foam pad that was only 4' long. When I laid down to sleep I realized that there was a leak in the Thermarest. That short foam pad saved me from getting up in the middle of the night and packing out. Only my feet got cold, but I laid my backpack at the foot of my sleeping bag and used that to keep my feet warm.


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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
A cot without good insulation can be brutal. I have an insulated air mattress and put a piece of ensolite on top of that. I've slept warm down to 5 with it so far.

Do you have trouble with condensation under your sleeping bag?
I do, maybe my setup is wrong when using a cot. I put down a thin closed cell pad, on top of that a foam “egg crate” pad 3” thick and down bag on top of that. The bottom of my sleeping bag gets quite wet. Solution?


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Originally Posted by ruffcutt
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
A cot without good insulation can be brutal. I have an insulated air mattress and put a piece of ensolite on top of that. I've slept warm down to 5 with it so far.

Do you have trouble with condensation under your sleeping bag?
I do, maybe my setup is wrong when using a cot. I put down a thin closed cell pad, on top of that a foam “egg crate” pad 3” thick and down bag on top of that. The bottom of my sleeping bag gets quite wet. Solution?
Sounds like your feet are too warm and sweating.
I've never had a problem with condensation with the ensolite. Mostly I use it under a quilt so I'm sleeping right on it. If I do that with the air mattress, I get a lot of condensation.


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When my wife and I were climbing Kilimanjaro last year, both of our pads deflated and we were essentially sleeping on the ground one night at 11,000 feet and the next at 13,000 feet, until they could run replacement insulated pads up to us. There were closed cell mats under us, or it would have been a total fail.

“Hard to stay warm” doesn’t do that experience justice. Thank God we had good jackets and warm hats along to help us make it through the night.

Sleeping cold sucks. Sleeping cold at altitude double sucks.

Originally Posted by KC

A couple of years ago, I backpacked into timberline at 11,000' elev. It was mid-May and a cold front was moving in. I had a down sleeping bag rated at 5°, a Thermarest air mattress and a foam pad that was only 4' long. When I laid down to sleep I realized that there was a leak in the Thermarest. That short foam pad saved me from getting up in the middle of the night and packing out. Only my feet got cold, but I laid my backpack at the foot of my sleeping bag and used that to keep my feet warm.



Last edited by David_Walter; 09/13/20.

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Originally Posted by KC
Originally Posted by MontanaCreekHunter

Just honest questions.

I do have several bags, all quality bags. I never took the road of buying average gear. I took the time to ask questions from guys doing what I wanted to do. I opted to listen to the advice from experienced guys. I worked extra jobs and saved up to afford it.

MCH:

Your buying strategy is the best way to buy expensive outdoor gear, maybe the best for buying anything. Maybe I am a slow learner, because I have repeated the same mistake many times with many different types of gear. I have multiples of all the most popular kinds of outdoor gear. I use only the best gear now because I have learned first hand why it's the best. But if you borrow gear from me, you will get the gear that I bought initially. smirk

I guess that old adage is true; The cheaper your gear is, the tougher you have to be.



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My first time hiking Mount Whitney I was in the Corps stationed in Tustin. My buddy a Marine as well decided he was going to go too. I offered him a few gear items but he insisted on using his ALICE Pack, Canteens, Sleeping bag, and issued boots. On the long boring drive from MCAS Tustin to Bishop he busted my balls about buying expensive gear and not using my issued USMC gear. At Outpost camp I was the one doing the laughing. A few weekends after that we did Mount Baldy and he had all new gear!


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I don't know what kind of sleeping bags the military uses now. Mine was the '70's version, stuffed with chicken feathers (with a few chickens still attached), and as warm as an ice cube. One time when in the Nat Guard, we were on maneuvers in March and sleeping on cots in the back of a 2.5. We like to have frozen in those bags. The next morning some officer discovered that he'd forgotten something important back at the armory. I quickly volunteered to drive the 50 miles back to get it. I detoured by home and grabbed my good down bag and slept comfortably the next night.


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Anytime you're sleeping on a bag, you're compressing the bottom, and the R value goes to crap.

That's why Big Agnes makes bags with no insulation on the bottom, but has a sleeve to fit their insulated pad in there.

That's also why a hammock is so cold, of you don't have a bottom quilt hanging just beneath the fabric on the bottom.

I have a cot for sleeping in elk camp, and it has insulation on the underside, where me sleeping on it won't compress it.

When sleeping on the ground, I have a Thermarest or Big Agnes, and a space blanket under that.

The new military three bag system (patrol bag, inside of a heavy bag, inside of a Goretex bivy) is pretty good, although very heavy, IF you have an insulated mat and a space blanket to sleep on.

Sleeping cold sucks.


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Anytime you're sleeping on a bag, you're compressing the bottom, and the R value goes to crap.

That's why Big Agnes makes bags with no insulation on the bottom, but has a sleeve to fit their insulated pad in there.

That's also why a hammock is so cold, of you don't have a bottom quilt hanging just beneath the fabric on the bottom.

I have a cot for sleeping in elk camp, and it has insulation on the underside, where me sleeping on it won't compress it.

When sleeping on the ground, I have a Thermarest or Big Agnes, and a space blanket under that.

The new military three bag system (patrol bag, inside of a heavy bag, inside of a Goretex bivy) is pretty good, although very heavy, IF you have an insulated mat and a space blanket to sleep on.

Sleeping cold sucks.


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Originally Posted by David_Walter
Anytime you're sleeping on a bag, you're compressing the bottom, and the R value goes to crap.

That's why Big Agnes makes bags with no insulation on the bottom, but has a sleeve to fit their insulated pad in there.


That's also why a hammock is so cold, of you don't have a bottom quilt hanging just beneath the fabric on the bottom.

I have a cot for sleeping in elk camp, and it has insulation on the underside, where me sleeping on it won't compress it.

When sleeping on the ground, I have a Thermarest or Big Agnes, and a space blanket under that.

The new military three bag system (patrol bag, inside of a heavy bag, inside of a Goretex bivy) is pretty good, although very heavy, IF you have an insulated mat and a space blanket to sleep on.

Sleeping cold sucks.

That's the whole idea behind backpacking quilts. Since the bottom insulation is worthless, they leave it off along with the zipper and bottom of the bag. You get the same warmth but without the weight and bulk. A good 0 degree quilt will weigh less than 3lb.


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OP, you are in the sweet spot. In the places you describe, neither weight nor precipitation are a challenge. You didn't mention price. If you don't need a backpacking bag, with max performance and min weight, then go down all the way. It's vastly more comfortable than syn. In a bunkhouse or truck, a comfy sleeping pad is a given. It's easy for the bag to dry during the day in a truck or bunkhouse, should perspiration be a problem. When using down, I leave the bag open to dry unless I'm carrying it. I would look at CraigsList, Marketplace, or OfferUp. I find down bags easy to wash in a modern washing machine, or by hand. Better quality down is more expensive than average quality down, but is worth it. If you want to buy a premium bag, I'm sure you won't be disappointed, but I would not for your situation. For backpacking, canoeing/rafting, or float plane hunting, disregard everything I just wrote.

Good luck!


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@Rock Chuck,

Agreed. I use mostly quilts now, and even when using a bag I open it like a quilt.

Better mousetrap.

Last edited by David_Walter; 09/14/20.

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Originally Posted by David_Walter
The new military three bag system (patrol bag, inside of a heavy bag, inside of a Goretex bivy) is pretty good, although very heavy, IF you have an insulated mat and a space blanket to sleep on.

I actually have used this system for ultralight hiking. It is not a light system (10 pounds with the cold weather bag, 5.5 without it), but it works VERY well. What I did was take the patrol bag, bivy sack, and compression sack. I used a tarp for the tent (again this is hiking/camping during Summer/Spring, but above treeline (10k+)) in the Rockies. I used a closed cell foam pad that I cut to fit inside the bivy sack, but below the patrol bag. I also used a thermal blanket on the ground both for heat and to protect the bivy sack a bit. The bivy sack is Gore-tex and kept water/snow from getting in to the bag. I normally wore socks to bed and if it was snowing/cold I wore a base layer. I was never really uncomfortable using this system. Even using the MSS (minus the cold weather bag that is), I was able to keep my total pack weight under 30 pounds with a week's worth of food and 2 liters of water.

While there are civilian equivalents, the way the system works is great. Because the mattress pad was inside the bivy sack I never rolled off of it. It also provided a bit more heat retention. For car camping (where you can afford the 4.5 pounds extra for the cold weather bag), it is very hard to beat the MSS on cost vs. performance.

Last edited by DanGilbertTX; 09/15/20.
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Originally Posted by DanGilbertTX
Originally Posted by David_Walter
The new military three bag system (patrol bag, inside of a heavy bag, inside of a Goretex bivy) is pretty good, although very heavy, IF you have an insulated mat and a space blanket to sleep on.

I actually have used this system for ultralight hiking. It is not a light system (10 pounds with the cold weather bag, 5.5 without it), but it works VERY well. What I did was take the patrol bag, bivy sack, and compression sack. I used a tarp for the tent (again this is hiking/camping during Summer/Spring, but above treeline (10k+)) in the Rockies. I used a closed cell foam pad that I cut to fit inside the bivy sack, but below the patrol bag. I also used a thermal blanket on the ground both for heat and to protect the bivy sack a bit. The bivy sack is Gore-tex and kept water/snow from getting in to the bag. I normally wore socks to bed and if it was snowing/cold I wore a base layer. I was never really uncomfortable using this system. Even using the MSS (minus the cold weather bag that is), I was able to keep my total pack weight under 30 pounds with a week's worth of food and 2 liters of water.

While there are civilian equivalents, the way the system works is great. Because the mattress pad was inside the bivy sack I never rolled off of it. It also provided a bit more heat retention. For car camping (where you can afford the 4.5 pounds extra for the cold weather bag), it is very hard to beat the MSS on cost vs. performance.


I have used this Mil-surp system a lot, and it's a good one. It's more bulky than the higher-priced, high performance bags. I found the GoreTex bivvy that comes with it to be excellent.

As far as inflatable pads go, this thread reminds me of what I already know -- I don't trust them. A closed-cell pad is un-fugg-uppable.


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When packing with my llamas in cold weather, I've found that the 3/4" felt saddle pads are great insulation. They aren't soft, though. They're like sleeping on a board. Some kind of inflatable on top of them makes a great bed.


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You guys haven’t been challenged enough. Let’s find a 0 degree, ultra light (back packing) for someone 7’ tall and 245 lbs. Now where to?

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If money and weight is no object, get you a Exped Mega Mat and a big old Wiggys bag and youll sleep like a baby.

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Personally, I can’t stand mummy bags. My feet stayed “tied up” all night.

For the conditions you are talking about where weight isn’t a factor, I take two bags..a medium weight one inside a heavier bag and a couple of wool blankets just in case. If it comes down to using the blanket(s) I open them out, put the bags on top and then pull the blankets over the bags.

You can always remove layers but you can’t add any if you don’t have them available.


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Originally Posted by 1845crusader
You guys haven’t been challenged enough. Let’s find a 0 degree, ultra light (back packing) for someone 7’ tall and 245 lbs. Now where to?

I would contact UNDERGROUND QUILTS. It's a small privately owned and operated company making high grade quilts. They might agree to making a custom size. It wouldn't be cheap but it would be high quality.


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+1 on Wiggy’s, especially for truck camping, bunkhouse use. Very high quality, made in the USA and, as already mentioned, can be repeatedly washed without degrading the bag’s ability to keep you warm. Also, Wiggy’s bags can be stored in their stuff sacks and will still hold their loft.

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