You do need to have enough frontal area driven at enough speed. The flat might not be earth shattering in gel versus the RN, but anyone who's ever killed anything generally skip the RN.
The good news is that as ranges get longer and speed goes down, their performance is also less effected.
They are handguns. Its not like the expanding bullets are bomblike in the difference...or compare to a 12 or 20 gauge Brenneke, which is nothing but a solid.
Clay is meaningless since it only provides an image of the maximum, non-permanent, wound channel. That's why they use gel instead of clay. All that impressive clay expansion, were it flesh or ballistic gelatin, would just bounce back into shape.
Clay is meaningless since it only provides an image of the maximum, non-permanent, wound channel. That's why they use gel instead of clay. All that impressive clay expansion, were it flesh or ballistic gelatin, would just bounce back into shape.
I dont find it useless it gives a reference. Some FMJ ammo expands readily such as tge Winchester white box 147 grain FMJ FP.The soft lead core and the soft plated jacket combine for an easily expandable bullet
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Clay is meaningless since it only provides an image of the maximum, non-permanent, wound channel. That's why they use gel instead of clay. All that impressive clay expansion, were it flesh or ballistic gelatin, would just bounce back into shape.
Arteries in flesh/organs rupture and that force disruption isnt accounted for in gel.
Its akin to hitting the gel with a ball bat, sap or whatever force object. But that apparently plays no role, unless of course youve actually tested the concept on living animals. The gel worship is a bit much.
Clay is meaningless since it only provides an image of the maximum, non-permanent, wound channel. That's why they use gel instead of clay. All that impressive clay expansion, were it flesh or ballistic gelatin, would just bounce back into shape.
Arteries in flesh/organs rupture and that force disruption isnt accounted for in gel.
Its akin to hitting the gel with a ball bat, sap or whatever force object. But that apparently plays no role, unless of course youve actually tested the concept on living animals. The gel worship is a bit much.
Indeed
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Temporary wound channel has an affect, for sure. It's a violent disruption of living tissue. But clay exaggerates this affect. Big impressive holes in clay aren't nearly as meaningful as they appear, is all I'm saying.
Temporary wound channel has an affect, for sure. It's a violent disruption of living tissue. But clay exaggerates this affect. Big impressive holes in clay aren't nearly as meaningful as they appear, is all I'm saying.
You clearly do not understand that clay gives an accurate reference, the hole from an expanding bullet will be larger and penetrate less the same as it does in ballistics gel. A little common sense and one should gain useful info from clay
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Clay is meaningless since it only provides an image of the maximum, non-permanent, wound channel. That's why they use gel instead of clay. All that impressive clay expansion, were it flesh or ballistic gelatin, would just bounce back into shape.
Arteries in flesh/organs rupture and that force disruption isnt accounted for in gel.
Its akin to hitting the gel with a ball bat, sap or whatever force object. But that apparently plays no role, unless of course youve actually tested the concept on living animals. The gel worship is a bit much.
All that is true. It is also true that gel is probably the best medium there is unless you've got a bunch of goats to shoot.
You do need to have enough frontal area driven at enough speed. The flat might not be earth shattering in gel versus the RN, but anyone who's ever killed anything generally skip the RN.
Flat nosed 45s seem to "whomp" armadillos harder than round nosed. Not scientific I admit.
A decent flatnosed solid from a 357 can go from the pooper out the brisket of about any whitetail deer or medium hog. Its a poor shot with about any "good" hollowpoint Ive come across, cause they wont make it.
If peaceful protesters are tossing molotovs at my windows, catching as many per round makes sense.
If everything consisted of a blob of lungs and livers and it was all shot inside 35 yards, I'd give creedence to how "realistic" ballistic gel "tests" are.
You do need to have enough frontal area driven at enough speed. The flat might not be earth shattering in gel versus the RN, but anyone who's ever killed anything generally skip the RN.
Flat nosed 45s seem to "whomp" armadillos harder than round nosed. Not scientific I admit.
It needs to be duplicated in a lab, preferably by a company that sells bullets in order to be quantified properly.
Ignore the facts that as far back as WWI, militaries banned the truncated cone and Colt New Police cartridges generally differed from S&W counterparts in one regard: bullet nose profile.
A real armadillo whomp difference effect can be seen with 45 Colt comparing old school round nose to the NEI 454-270-PBK which has the same meplat as an LBT WFN and the SWC shoulder to boot.
A real armadillo whomp difference effect can be seen with 45 Colt comparing old school round nose to the NEI 454-270-PBK which has the same meplat as an LBT WFN and the SWC shoulder to boot.
I'd put more emphasis on gel tests if they illustrated what people like you who actually shoot things experience and have demonstrated for eons.
The best medium is Paul Harrell's meat target. Only problem is difficulty in perfect repeatability, since you can't have 100% identical meat targets, as it's basically impossible, so not 100% scientific.
"At the suggestion from someone in another forum, I shot two rounds of some M882 9mm into some bare gel. This was the same blocks I used for the Underwood test. To my surprise, both rounds only penetrated about a block and a half, 24.5 and 24.75 inches. I was expecting much more."
From "UNDERWOOD 9MM & .40 S&W HARD CAST IN CLEAR BALLISTICS GEL"
Good stuff folks, it would be interested in Gel tests, to see the same profiles as in a WFN hardcast that hunters use in revolvers.......
Yet, perhaps not all handguns will reliably run them. I agree that as a PD round, a top JHP is usually the way to go. But it's of interest I am sure to many, how FMJ performs, no doubt they are less effective. I have heard exactly what JWP475 has said about some Flat FMJ rounds expanding.
It seems makers of the premium priced JHP would rather folks not know that some of those FMJ rounds might do more than just pencil thru. I am sure they are no where near as effective as an HST or Gold Dot.....but it would be interesting to see more tests done.
I've used one or another version of the 45 ACP 230 cast flat point for ridding the place of the nuisance critters that invade here every year. That bullet at 825-950 fps anchors them PDQ with a good hit.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
The best medium is Paul Harrell's meat target. Only problem is difficulty in perfect repeatability, since you can't have 100% identical meat targets, as it's basically impossible, so not 100% scientific.
True, and you can’t have the exact same Communists. They come in all shapes and sizes😆
Good stuff folks, it would be interested in Gel tests, to see the same profiles as in a WFN hardcast that hunters use in revolvers.......
Yet, perhaps not all handguns will reliably run them. I agree that as a PD round, a top JHP is usually the way to go. But it's of interest I am sure to many, how FMJ performs, no doubt they are less effective. I have heard exactly what JWP475 has said about some Flat FMJ rounds expanding.
It seems makers of the premium priced JHP would rather folks not know that some of those FMJ rounds might do more than just pencil thru. I am sure they are no where near as effective as an HST or Gold Dot.....but it would be interesting to see more tests done.
Thanks everyone for contributing.
Read the link I gave you. He tests WFN profiles in 9mm, 40sw, 10mm, and 45acp. Maybe even 357mag.
I've used one or another version of the 45 ACP 230 cast flat point for ridding the place of the nuisance critters that invade here every year. That bullet at 825-950 fps anchors them PDQ with a good hit.
I've used one or another version of the 45 ACP 230 cast flat point for ridding the place of the nuisance critters that invade here every year. That bullet at 825-950 fps anchors them PDQ with a good hit.
Did you have problems getting them to feed?
No sir they fed slick in everything from a Cobra Patriot 45, I had around here for a S&G gun, to a 70's lightweight Commander. Walther PPQ, M&P45 Midsize, G30SF, Shield 45 etc no diff. I run them at 1.220” OAL
Edited to add: with a very firm taper crimp.
In fact the only guns that didn't like them much were a trio of XDS 45s that belonged to a couple of my sons and a son in law. After looking at the chambers on two of them, my opinion is those tend to either be short-chambered or have next to leade into the rifling. They'll feed hardball just fine along with most JHPs that follow the hardball profile (HST, Golden Saber WW-USA 230).
Some notes on the load using Missouri Bullet's 225 grain 'Flathead'. These days I am using Bear Creek's 230 grain version, one of the first coated bullets I've tried that shoots fully as well as the cast version.
These are pretty interesting. Missouri Bullet's 215 grain '45 Express' coated 45 ACP/Colt bullet. It is essentially the old SAECO #58 with the lube groove removed to simplify application of the 'Hi-Tek 2' coating. The Express/SAECO 58 has a large .355" meplat and made its bones in bowling pin shoots popular a few years ago. At 20 BHN it isn't going to expand but it will hit hard and leave a big hole, coming and going.
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