24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,505
65BR Offline OP
Campfire Ranger
OP Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,505
Curious how 9, 40, and 45 do in penetration with say a Flat nose FMJ, and does it add any meaningful effectiveness vs roundnose FMJ.

Thinking 147 in 9, 165 in 40.....

I have not been able to find any test or info.

BP-B2

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,017
V
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
V
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,017
Brass Fetcher might.

As a matter of fact I bought some 147 and 165s today. Not so much for me.

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 130,943
T
Campfire Sage
Offline
Campfire Sage
T
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 130,943
Originally Posted by 65BR
Curious how 9, 40, and 45 do in penetration with say a Flat nose FMJ, and does it add any meaningful effectiveness vs roundnose FMJ.

Thinking 147 in 9, 165 in 40.....

I have not been able to find any test or info.

They sail through in a narrow path, causing little damage around the wound channel. You have to hope to hit solid bone, CNS, or a major artery.

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,914
H
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
H
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,914
Not really.

You do need to have enough frontal area driven at enough speed. The flat might not be earth shattering in gel versus the RN, but anyone who's ever killed anything generally skip the RN.

The good news is that as ranges get longer and speed goes down, their performance is also less effected.

They are handguns. Its not like the expanding bullets are bomblike in the difference...or compare to a 12 or 20 gauge Brenneke, which is nothing but a solid.

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,017
V
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
V
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,017

IC B2

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 130,943
T
Campfire Sage
Offline
Campfire Sage
T
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 130,943
Originally Posted by viking

Clay is meaningless since it only provides an image of the maximum, non-permanent, wound channel. That's why they use gel instead of clay. All that impressive clay expansion, were it flesh or ballistic gelatin, would just bounce back into shape.

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,017
V
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
V
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,017
Yeah I know, but it was about the only thing I could find with 3 different weights.

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812
J
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by viking

Clay is meaningless since it only provides an image of the maximum, non-permanent, wound channel. That's why they use gel instead of clay. All that impressive clay expansion, were it flesh or ballistic gelatin, would just bounce back into shape.


I dont find it useless it gives a reference. Some FMJ ammo expands readily such as tge Winchester white box 147 grain FMJ FP.The soft lead core and the soft plated jacket combine for an easily expandable bullet



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,914
H
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
H
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,914
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by viking

Clay is meaningless since it only provides an image of the maximum, non-permanent, wound channel. That's why they use gel instead of clay. All that impressive clay expansion, were it flesh or ballistic gelatin, would just bounce back into shape.


Arteries in flesh/organs rupture and that force disruption isnt accounted for in gel.

Its akin to hitting the gel with a ball bat, sap or whatever force object. But that apparently plays no role, unless of course youve actually tested the concept on living animals.
The gel worship is a bit much.

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,017
V
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
V
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,017
I ain’t saying it’s right or wrong, just posted it. It is what it is.

IC B3

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812
J
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812
Originally Posted by HawkI
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by viking

Clay is meaningless since it only provides an image of the maximum, non-permanent, wound channel. That's why they use gel instead of clay. All that impressive clay expansion, were it flesh or ballistic gelatin, would just bounce back into shape.


Arteries in flesh/organs rupture and that force disruption isnt accounted for in gel.

Its akin to hitting the gel with a ball bat, sap or whatever force object. But that apparently plays no role, unless of course youve actually tested the concept on living animals.
The gel worship is a bit much.


Indeed



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 130,943
T
Campfire Sage
Offline
Campfire Sage
T
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 130,943
Temporary wound channel has an affect, for sure. It's a violent disruption of living tissue. But clay exaggerates this affect. Big impressive holes in clay aren't nearly as meaningful as they appear, is all I'm saying.

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812
J
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Temporary wound channel has an affect, for sure. It's a violent disruption of living tissue. But clay exaggerates this affect. Big impressive holes in clay aren't nearly as meaningful as they appear, is all I'm saying.


You clearly do not understand that clay gives an accurate reference, the hole from an expanding bullet will be larger and penetrate less the same as it does in ballistics gel. A little common sense and one should gain useful info from clay



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Originally Posted by HawkI
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by viking

Clay is meaningless since it only provides an image of the maximum, non-permanent, wound channel. That's why they use gel instead of clay. All that impressive clay expansion, were it flesh or ballistic gelatin, would just bounce back into shape.


Arteries in flesh/organs rupture and that force disruption isnt accounted for in gel.

Its akin to hitting the gel with a ball bat, sap or whatever force object. But that apparently plays no role, unless of course youve actually tested the concept on living animals.
The gel worship is a bit much.
All that is true. It is also true that gel is probably the best medium there is unless you've got a bunch of goats to shoot.

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,017
V
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
V
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,017

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,187
W
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
W
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,187
To answer the OP's question, I have seen gel tests that report 26" to 28" penetration in bare gel for 9mm FMJ, vs. 12" to 18" for expanding bullets.


Life is like a purple antelope on a field of tuna fish...
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812
J
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812
Originally Posted by viking



A slow load only 782 FPS that wouldn't impress in a JHP



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,603
A
Campfire 'Bwana
Online Content
Campfire 'Bwana
A
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,603
Here's another reference point for you.

.357 Flat nose FMJ in gel.

It not much more then a hole straight through:



You are better off with good HP's.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,707
M
Campfire 'Bwana
Online Content
Campfire 'Bwana
M
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,707
Originally Posted by HawkI

You do need to have enough frontal area driven at enough speed. The flat might not be earth shattering in gel versus the RN, but anyone who's ever killed anything generally skip the RN.


Flat nosed 45s seem to "whomp" armadillos harder than round nosed. Not scientific I admit.

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,914
H
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
H
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,914
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Here's another reference point for you.

.357 Flat nose FMJ in gel.

It not much more then a hole straight through:



You are better off with good HP's.


Depends on a lot of things.

A decent flatnosed solid from a 357 can go from the pooper out the brisket of about any whitetail deer or medium hog. Its a poor shot with about any "good" hollowpoint Ive come across, cause they wont make it.

If peaceful protesters are tossing molotovs at my windows, catching as many per round makes sense.

If everything consisted of a blob of lungs and livers and it
was all shot inside 35 yards, I'd give creedence to how "realistic" ballistic gel "tests" are.

Last edited by HawkI; 09/19/20.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
721 members (10gaugemag, 10Glocks, 11point, 12344mag, 17CalFan, 160user, 91 invisible), 2,720 guests, and 1,285 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,695
Posts18,399,890
Members73,820
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.151s Queries: 15 (0.006s) Memory: 0.8969 MB (Peak: 1.0493 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-28 23:23:44 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS