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Originally Posted by mathman
Originally Posted by HawkI

You do need to have enough frontal area driven at enough speed. The flat might not be earth shattering in gel versus the RN, but anyone who's ever killed anything generally skip the RN.


Flat nosed 45s seem to "whomp" armadillos harder than round nosed. Not scientific I admit.


It needs to be duplicated in a lab, preferably by a company that sells bullets in order to be quantified properly.

Ignore the facts that as far back as WWI, militaries banned the truncated cone and Colt New Police cartridges generally differed from S&W counterparts in one regard: bullet nose profile.

If they only had ballistics gel....

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A real armadillo whomp difference effect can be seen with 45 Colt comparing old school round nose to the NEI 454-270-PBK which has the same meplat as an LBT WFN and the SWC shoulder to boot.

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Yes, I've plunked a lot of dillos over the years. grin

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Originally Posted by mathman
A real armadillo whomp difference effect can be seen with 45 Colt comparing old school round nose to the NEI 454-270-PBK which has the same meplat as an LBT WFN and the SWC shoulder to boot.


I'd put more emphasis on gel tests if they illustrated what people like you who actually shoot things experience and have demonstrated for eons.

But they dont.

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The best medium is Paul Harrell's meat target. Only problem is difficulty in perfect repeatability, since you can't have 100% identical meat targets, as it's basically impossible, so not 100% scientific.

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Originally Posted by 65BR
Curious how 9, 40, and 45 do in penetration with say a Flat nose FMJ, and does it add any meaningful effectiveness vs roundnose FMJ.

Thinking 147 in 9, 165 in 40.....

I have not been able to find any test or info.

This fellow has done that testing while testing other bullet styles. Bookmark this link as it has a lot of good info.

https://general-cartridge.com/

"At the suggestion from someone in another forum, I shot two rounds of some M882 9mm into some bare gel. This was the same blocks I used for the Underwood test. To my surprise, both rounds only penetrated about a block and a half, 24.5 and 24.75 inches. I was expecting much more."

From "UNDERWOOD 9MM & .40 S&W HARD CAST IN CLEAR BALLISTICS GEL"

Last edited by dla; 09/20/20.
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Good stuff folks, it would be interested in Gel tests, to see the same profiles as in a WFN hardcast that hunters use in revolvers.......

Yet, perhaps not all handguns will reliably run them. I agree that as a PD round, a top JHP is usually the way to go. But it's of interest I am sure to many, how FMJ performs, no doubt they are less effective. I have heard exactly what JWP475 has said about some Flat FMJ rounds expanding.

It seems makers of the premium priced JHP would rather folks not know that some of those FMJ rounds might do more than just pencil thru. I am sure they are no where near as effective as an HST or Gold Dot.....but it would be interesting to see more tests done.

Thanks everyone for contributing.

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Good link DLA.

I've used one or another version of the 45 ACP 230 cast flat point for ridding the place of the nuisance critters that invade here every year. That bullet at 825-950 fps anchors them PDQ with a good hit.


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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
The best medium is Paul Harrell's meat target. Only problem is difficulty in perfect repeatability, since you can't have 100% identical meat targets, as it's basically impossible, so not 100% scientific.



True, and you can’t have the exact same Communists. They come in all shapes and sizes😆

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Originally Posted by 65BR
Good stuff folks, it would be interested in Gel tests, to see the same profiles as in a WFN hardcast that hunters use in revolvers.......

Yet, perhaps not all handguns will reliably run them. I agree that as a PD round, a top JHP is usually the way to go. But it's of interest I am sure to many, how FMJ performs, no doubt they are less effective. I have heard exactly what JWP475 has said about some Flat FMJ rounds expanding.

It seems makers of the premium priced JHP would rather folks not know that some of those FMJ rounds might do more than just pencil thru. I am sure they are no where near as effective as an HST or Gold Dot.....but it would be interesting to see more tests done.

Thanks everyone for contributing.

Read the link I gave you. He tests WFN profiles in 9mm, 40sw, 10mm, and 45acp. Maybe even 357mag.

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Originally Posted by SargeMO
Good link DLA.

I've used one or another version of the 45 ACP 230 cast flat point for ridding the place of the nuisance critters that invade here every year. That bullet at 825-950 fps anchors them PDQ with a good hit.

Did you have problems getting them to feed?

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Originally Posted by dla
Originally Posted by SargeMO
Good link DLA.

I've used one or another version of the 45 ACP 230 cast flat point for ridding the place of the nuisance critters that invade here every year. That bullet at 825-950 fps anchors them PDQ with a good hit.

Did you have problems getting them to feed?


No sir they fed slick in everything from a Cobra Patriot 45, I had around here for a S&G gun, to a 70's lightweight Commander. Walther PPQ, M&P45 Midsize, G30SF, Shield 45 etc no diff. I run them at 1.220” OAL

Edited to add: with a very firm taper crimp.

In fact the only guns that didn't like them much were a trio of XDS 45s that belonged to a couple of my sons and a son in law. After looking at the chambers on two of them, my opinion is those tend to either be short-chambered or have next to leade into the rifling. They'll feed hardball just fine along with most JHPs that follow the hardball profile (HST, Golden Saber WW-USA 230).

Some notes on the load using Missouri Bullet's 225 grain 'Flathead'. These days I am using Bear Creek's 230 grain version, one of the first coated bullets I've tried that shoots fully as well as the cast version.

http://www.thesixgunjournal.net/missouri-bullets-225-grain-flathead-for-the-45-auto/

Last edited by SargeMO; 09/20/20.

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MBC must've been going through some problems as they've really cut down on their product offerings. Nothing interesting for 45acp at all.

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These are pretty interesting. Missouri Bullet's 215 grain '45 Express' coated 45 ACP/Colt bullet. It is essentially the old SAECO #58 with the lube groove removed to simplify application of the 'Hi-Tek 2' coating. The Express/SAECO 58 has a large .355" meplat and made its bones in bowling pin shoots popular a few years ago. At 20 BHN it isn't going to expand but it will hit hard and leave a big hole, coming and going.

[Linked Image]

I tried a box with a couple of proven accurate 45 ACP loads and could never get them to shoot really well. Summary here. https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/anybody-loading-missouri-bullets-215-grain-45-express.1754464/


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Thanks DLA, yes I did, great info - appreciate that Sir.

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Energy / penetration = "Smack Factor".
Light weight FMJ is your friend (military has other needs).



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