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Like many of you, I can shoulder a rifle with good glass and think to myself, man that is nice. I have some rifles with good glass and some with mediocre glass. When I go hunting or I go to the range, with both when I put the plus sign on the target and pull the trigger, the bullet goes where its supposed to.

Most of my hunting is southern woods. I have done some open country hunting. Other than an appreciation for the sharpness of the good glass, I can't say that I have ever realized a real benefit from it. Low light situations are an exception.

I have cheap binoculars, decent binoculars and good binoculars. It is especially satisfying to put the Steiners up to my eyes. The sharpness is evident. With that said, they don't give me any information that my Nikons don't also give me. If I can count the points on the mule deer with the Steiners, I can also count them with the Nikons.

Excepting low light performance, does great glass provide any real benefit over good glass? Will a VX5 ever allow me to accomplish anything a VX Freedom won't? Will a MeoStar allow me to accomplish anything a MeoPro won't let me accomplish?

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Assuming that the internals are equal (and low light aside), there isn't much of an advantage in my opinion. A scope is a sight, not an observation device. The problem is that most scopes with lower-end glass also have less-robust erector systems.

As for binoculars, high end glass certainly helps reduce eye strain in environments where you might be glassing all day long-- probably not a factor in the South.

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Obviously, quite a few folks think high end glass is worth the expense. I snicker silently when guys are woofing about their $150 scopes and $99 binoculars and how good they are and just as good as Swarovski, Leica, etc. Betting most have never looked through alpha optics outside of a box store. To each his own.

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They sure look better !

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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
I have cheap binoculars, decent binoculars and good binoculars. It is especially satisfying to put the Steiners up to my eyes. The sharpness is evident. With that said, they don't give me any information that my Nikons don't also give me. If I can count the points on the mule deer with the Steiners, I can also count them with the Nikons.

Excepting low light performance, does great glass provide any real benefit over good glass? Will a VX5 ever allow me to accomplish anything a VX Freedom won't? Will a MeoStar allow me to accomplish anything a MeoPro won't let me accomplish?


As far as bino's, I find that while I could often make my 30 year old Steiners work very well, the newer Leica's I have can deliver slightly better clarity but with a whole lot less eye strain if I spend much time at all glassing.


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Originally Posted by Woodhits
Assuming that the internals are equal (and low light aside), there isn't much of an advantage in my opinion. A scope is a sight, not an observation device. The problem is that most scopes with lower-end glass also have less-robust erector systems.

As for binoculars, high end glass certainly helps reduce eye strain in environments where you might be glassing all day long-- probably not a factor in the South.


That's exactly what I was looking for. I had never even considered eye strain. Kodiak was the only place I had ever glassed, and it was never for protracted periods of time.

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Once you step up to what i call "medium" glass.... that describes the price too... you can sure tell a big difference in cheap scopes. Lots of great prices and glass in the "medium" range now, more than ever.

Further gain in glass, once you step out of the medium class, is very expensive. You'll spend a lot of bucks before you graduate to a noticeable difference.


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I’m with you on scopes.

Schitty binoculars though, they hurt my head after a very short amount of time. If you use them for hours at a time, I imagine you’d go cross eyed.


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Originally Posted by WAM
Obviously, quite a few folks think high end glass is worth the expense. I snicker silently when guys are woofing about their $150 scopes and $99 binoculars and how good they are and just as good as Swarovski, Leica, etc. Betting most have never looked through alpha optics outside of a box store. To each his own.


I have never had the pleasure of using "alpha" glass. I am assuming as with most things there is a point of diminishing returns with the clarity/sharpness of glass. For example, I can see an appreciable difference between my Sightron S1 and my Leupold VX-2. I can see a difference between my VX-II and my MeoPro, although it's less pronounced. As a consequence, most of my glass is in the VX-II range.

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Yes, the performance increase per dollar curve flattens out considerably once you get to the MeoPro level.

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Originally Posted by mathman
Yes, the performance increase per dollar curve flattens out considerably once you get to the MeoPro level.


Part of what has me asking this question is that I am considering treating myself to a higher dollar scope. I have a highly practical side that I am doing battle with.

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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Like many of you, I can shoulder a rifle with good glass and think to myself, man that is nice. I have some rifles with good glass and some with mediocre glass. When I go hunting or I go to the range, with both when I put the plus sign on the target and pull the trigger, the bullet goes where its supposed to.

Most of my hunting is southern woods. I have done some open country hunting. Other than an appreciation for the sharpness of the good glass, I can't say that I have ever realized a real benefit from it. Low light situations are an exception.

I have cheap binoculars, decent binoculars and good binoculars. It is especially satisfying to put the Steiners up to my eyes. The sharpness is evident. With that said, they don't give me any information that my Nikons don't also give me. If I can count the points on the mule deer with the Steiners, I can also count them with the Nikons.

Excepting low light performance, does great glass provide any real benefit over good glass? Will a VX5 ever allow me to accomplish anything a VX Freedom won't? Will a MeoStar allow me to accomplish anything a MeoPro won't let me accomplish?


Your disclaimer "Low light is an exception" is, IMO, the crux of the matter. I hunt Georgia hardwoods, and first and last light is prime time for whitetails. The lesson I painfully learned many years ago was the abrupt total loss of performance of cheaper optics below a certain light threshold, still within the "30 minutes after sunset" game regulations in Ga. A very good buck had stepped out of the woods into my food plot about 150 yards away in the fading light. I had watched him with my Zeiss binoculars working his way through the briars for about 10 minutes. No shot opportunity because the brush was so thick. As he made his way onto the food plot I picked up my rifle and could barely make him out for a few fleeting seconds, and then all I could see was fuzzy blackness. I looked again through the binos and could see him quite well, well enough to shoot, if the scope was equal to the binoculars. I was using an inexpensive Simmons. Lesson learned.


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Originally Posted by rockinbbar
Once you step up to what i call "medium" glass.... that describes the price too... you can sure tell a big difference in cheap scopes. Lots of great prices and glass in the "medium" range now, more than ever.

Further gain in glass, once you step out of the medium class, is very expensive. You'll spend a lot of bucks before you graduate to a noticeable difference.


Amen brother.


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Originally Posted by badger
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Like many of you, I can shoulder a rifle with good glass and think to myself, man that is nice. I have some rifles with good glass and some with mediocre glass. When I go hunting or I go to the range, with both when I put the plus sign on the target and pull the trigger, the bullet goes where its supposed to.

Most of my hunting is southern woods. I have done some open country hunting. Other than an appreciation for the sharpness of the good glass, I can't say that I have ever realized a real benefit from it. Low light situations are an exception.

I have cheap binoculars, decent binoculars and good binoculars. It is especially satisfying to put the Steiners up to my eyes. The sharpness is evident. With that said, they don't give me any information that my Nikons don't also give me. If I can count the points on the mule deer with the Steiners, I can also count them with the Nikons.

Excepting low light performance, does great glass provide any real benefit over good glass? Will a VX5 ever allow me to accomplish anything a VX Freedom won't? Will a MeoStar allow me to accomplish anything a MeoPro won't let me accomplish?


Your disclaimer "Low light is an exception" is, IMO, the crux of the matter. I hunt Georgia hardwoods, and first and last light is prime time for whitetails. The lesson I painfully learned many years ago was the abrupt total loss of performance of cheaper optics below a certain light threshold, still within the "30 minutes after sunset" game regulations in Ga. A very good buck had stepped out of the woods into my food plot about 150 yards away in the fading light. I had watched him with my Zeiss binoculars working his way through the briars for about 10 minutes. No shot opportunity because the brush was so thick. As he made his way onto the food plot I picked up my rifle and could barely make him out for a few fleeting seconds, and then all I could see was fuzzy blackness. I looked again through the binos and could see him quite well, well enough to shoot, if the scope was equal to the binoculars. I was using an inexpensive Simmons. Lesson learned.


I have done enough deep woods hunting to have learned that low light performance matters. At the VX-2 level 3-9x40 on a cloudy evening, I can make out the crosshairs placed over the chest of a deer almost all the way to the last legal minute of shooting. On a non-cloudy day I can make it beyond legal hours.

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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by mathman
Yes, the performance increase per dollar curve flattens out considerably once you get to the MeoPro level.


Part of what has me asking this question is that I am considering treating myself to a higher dollar scope. I have a highly practical side that I am doing battle with.


Once I got to MeoPro level "glass" I'd start thinking about more money for more robust mechanics instead of better "glass".

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If I were hunting primarily woods type country down South, I'd have an illuminated reticle in whatever scope proved to hold zero. For binos, I'd have a good medium priced ($500-$1000) 8x42.


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"Glass" is a pretty broad term.


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Originally Posted by JGRaider
If I were hunting primarily woods type country down South, I'd have an illuminated reticle in whatever scope proved to hold zero. For binos, I'd have a good medium priced ($500-$1000) 8x42.


It's interesting that you mention the illuminated reticle. That's the way I am leaning. The very few first minutes and last minutes of legal light can find me searching for the crosshairs on the kill zone. I can see the crosshairs against a more open background and I can make out the kill zone on the deer, but as soon as I put the crosshairs on the target, I lose them.

I am considering a Leupold VX5 firedot. Leupold has a little known veterans program that will give me a pretty good discount.

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Good binocs are the shizz....best money I EVER spent on any sporting equipment. The caveat then is to USE them, religiously.

For 99.9% of hunting high dollar "Alpha" scopes are not necessary. But if it floats your boat....

I'll spend 90% of my time looking through binocs, and about .00012% looking through a scope.

Also, as someone mentioned you get into a law of diminishing returns quickly with optics. A $500 binoc is easily twice as good as a $250 one. A $1,000 binoc is by no means twice as good as the $500,and for another $1000 you'll be lucky to get 10% more in performance.


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Originally Posted by mathman
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by mathman
Yes, the performance increase per dollar curve flattens out considerably once you get to the MeoPro level.


Part of what has me asking this question is that I am considering treating myself to a higher dollar scope. I have a highly practical side that I am doing battle with.


Once I got to MeoPro level "glass" I'd start thinking about more money for more robust mechanics instead of better "glass".


How much can a buyer really learn about the robustness of the mechanics? We obviously have a pretty large body of knowledge here due in a large part to the work of Form and a few others. If someone wasn't aware of their works, how would they learn about the internals?

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paul i have plenty scopes and brands ,i do like leupold but my favorite scope brand is Nightforce this brand scope adjusts exactly how it is suppose too and on the bench if you need to move turrent click 1/4 or a 1/2 inch it always works that way, many benchrest shoots are won with Nightforce scope too.the last 10 - 15 years all my bucks in Minnesota or out west i used only Nightforce scopes, and when i go to Alaska my rifle will have a Nightforce scope on it too.


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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard

How much can a buyer really learn about the robustness of the mechanics? We obviously have a pretty large body of knowledge here due in a large part to the work of Form and a few others. If someone wasn't aware of their works, how would they learn about the internals?


The hard way.

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Paul I understand your practicality issue. The issue comes with your hunting conditions and hours. We are allowed to go 1 hr after official. The leaf canopy does not drop till late in the season. This can make for challenging light conditions. The mid price point ($500 MSRP) definitely hold advantage over lesser scopes. A Meopro/Conquest are more useful than a Freedom in these conditions. A open prairie hunter probably wouldn’t notice the difference. Nor a hunter in a state with shorter hunting hours.
All of my rifles that are a favorite have this level or better optics.
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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by WAM
Obviously, quite a few folks think high end glass is worth the expense. I snicker silently when guys are woofing about their $150 scopes and $99 binoculars and how good they are and just as good as Swarovski, Leica, etc. Betting most have never looked through alpha optics outside of a box store. To each his own.


I have never had the pleasure of using "alpha" glass. I am assuming as with most things there is a point of diminishing returns with the clarity/sharpness of glass. For example, I can see an appreciable difference between my Sightron S1 and my Leupold VX-2. I can see a difference between my VX-II and my MeoPro, although it's less pronounced. As a consequence, most of my glass is in the VX-II range.

I totally agree that the point of diminishing returns is about where you stated. Not everyone can benefit from super high end optics due to their own vision limitations. First / last light performance is where it makes a difference to me. Most any scope works ok in good light as long as it tracks and/or holds zero. One of the best adjustment tracking scopes I’ve used is a Sightron S-II. Happy Trails


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Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.

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I've had a few instances where I was a minute or two out from legal shooting time cutoff and was able to make a shot because of "decent" scope glass, combined with an adequate reticle. They were made with a 6x42 Leupold, a tritium-lit Trijicon, and an illuminated Bushnell LRTSi. The glass quality was good enough to bring in enough light. I've hunted a few cheapy scopes that would not have allowed those shots. Like others say, buy good binoculars, and stay away from those scopes that have a drastic difference in image quality from you binocs when the light gets dim. Many of us have been in a situation where the binocs can give a suitable image, but the scope has already faded out.


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An anecdote that may or may not be relevant - In Wyoming last year I found some Antelope at a considerable distance (think indirect fire) with my 8.5 Swaro ELs. When I tried to view them through my 30+ year old Vari X III 6.5-20 (on 20 of course) they were hard to make out. I was shocked that the 8 power top tier glass could see things in detail that the 20 power mid tier (arguably) could not. This experience was a real eye opener for me.
In the interest of full disclosure all of my rifles wear mostly older Leupolds and newer Meopros (which I prefer) and I have never felt at a disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by pete53
paul i have plenty scopes and brands ,i do like leupold but my favorite scope brand is Nightforce this brand scope adjusts exactly how it is suppose too and on the bench if you need to move turrent click 1/4 or a 1/2 inch it always works that way, many benchrest shoots are won with Nightforce scope too.the last 10 - 15 years all my bucks in Minnesota or out west i used only Nightforce scopes, and when i go to Alaska my rifle will have a Nightforce scope on it too.


Yes.

And you need a rifle that shoots 1 MOA or less for a scope with top notch mechanics to shine. What a pleasure it is to make an adjustment, no matter how slight and see it on paper! Fuggh the glass. Most all are acceptable in tbis day and age. There is no compromise with adjustments like there is glass


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Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


Not so much when Black Bear hunting. Been there multiple times at last legal light.


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Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


That gave me pause to think. I tend to prefer finer reticles. After all I do most of my shooting with my hunting guns at targets, and I much prefer finer reticles for eeking out the smallest possible groups.

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Originally Posted by Sakoluvr
Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


Not so much when Black Bear hunting. Been there multiple times at last legal light.


Oh yeah, that wasn't on my radar. Where I hunt you're better off shooting yourself instead of a black bear. grin

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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


That gave me pause to think. I tend to prefer finer reticles. After all I do most of my shooting with my hunting guns at targets, and I much prefer finer reticles for eeking out the smallest possible groups.


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Originally Posted by mathman
Originally Posted by Sakoluvr
Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


Not so much when Black Bear hunting. Been there multiple times at last legal light.


Oh yeah, that wasn't on my radar. Where I hunt you're better off shooting yourself instead of a black bear. grin


LOL


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Originally Posted by Sakoluvr
Originally Posted by pete53
paul i have plenty scopes and brands ,i do like leupold but my favorite scope brand is Nightforce this brand scope adjusts exactly how it is suppose too and on the bench if you need to move turrent click 1/4 or a 1/2 inch it always works that way, many benchrest shoots are won with Nightforce scope too.the last 10 - 15 years all my bucks in Minnesota or out west i used only Nightforce scopes, and when i go to Alaska my rifle will have a Nightforce scope on it too.


Yes.

And you need a rifle that shoots 1 MOA or less for a scope with top notch mechanics to shine. What a pleasure it is to make an adjustment, no matter how slight and see it on paper! Fuggh the glass. Most all are acceptable in tbis day and age. There is no compromise with adjustments like there is glass


Something Form wrote that really stuck with me is "scopes are first and foremost an aiming device" or something very close to that.

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Re: making your shot true.....in the end, can you see your target 'well enough' to paste a visible crosshair on vitals. After that, the 'Sighting device' must be reliable, consistency matters, for shot to shot accuracy and precision.

Nice Glass and optics are nice...but not always essential to success. It never hurts however to have quality throughout from glass to rugged repeatable internals.

LOTS of game have dropped to scopes, or sights of various kinds, that are far INFERIOR to the current Freedom line of scopes, FWIW.

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The value of high end optics is diminished when looking through yo walmart glasses or if your eyesight has been compromised over the years but not to the point of needed corrective lens.

For some it is no problem getting a high end optic and paying 3-4-5,000 dollars but cheap out on corrective lens.

I use mid range optics that hold zero and track as they should, my corrective lens are Zeiss, they cost $1300 and provide me with 20-20 in one eye and 20-40 in the other.

A lens replacement will put me at 20-20 for both free where with the deal I have.

No bragging rights though with a mid range optic.

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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


That gave me pause to think. I tend to prefer finer reticles. After all I do most of my shooting with my hunting guns at targets, and I much prefer finer reticles for eeking out the smallest possible groups.

A fine center crosshair with coarse posts is the trick. Think LRHS G2H or SS MQ.

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I don't have an LRHS, but the coarse posts of my 6x42 SS Milquads don't come in tight enough to center for how I'd use them in the real dark situation.

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Originally Posted by Sakoluvr
Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


Not so much when Black Bear hunting. Been there multiple times at last legal light.

+ A lot!


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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


That gave me pause to think. I tend to prefer finer reticles. After all I do most of my shooting with my hunting guns at targets, and I much prefer finer reticles for eeking out the smallest possible groups.

I seriously dislike heavy reticles for anything...


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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


That gave me pause to think. I tend to prefer finer reticles. After all I do most of my shooting with my hunting guns at targets, and I much prefer finer reticles for eeking out the smallest possible groups.


As we all know I am a fan of the Made In USA scopes and you mentioned the VX5.

The illumination allows a very fine reticle that is totally usable in even darkness and can be left on for months.

Fire Dot illumination is a bit of a game changer for hunting reticle design.


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Lots of great info here. I haven't read it all so I apologize if I am repeating something.

As far as the lenses and not the internals, good glass isn't usually just "clearer" than mediocre glass, to me at least. Its value lies in:

Signifigantly less eye strain when glassing for hours on end (this is (hopefully obviously) for binos and spotters only)
Much better low light performance
Much better clarity when dirt and grime, condensation, etc. starts collecting on the lenses



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It appears here lately that the $400 - $600 range on both scopes and binos is a very safe place for 90% of us to be. Special applications would certainly require price points above and below this range though. The good thing is that we have tons of options. Good luck.


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I'm not much of a big game hunter but am a serious coyote hunter. I seriously feel the money spent on big buck scopes would be better spent on gas for the truck. If I can see a coyote coming with my bare eyes I can kill him with just about any scope I have from a Konus to a Meopta. Instead of shooting him at 500 yrds I call him in under 300 and have no need for high power or fancy turrets, just put the crosshairs on it and shoot. Last year I shot in an Egg Shoot, chicken eggs at 150 yards off shooting sticks, I made it to the final round in the Champions class(I won it a couple years ago). This years scope was a 50 yr old Balvar 8, I'm 23 years older than the scope, it is still a viable hunting scope..

After the shoot we went and decided to kill coyotes with our shoot guns. We usually use smaller scopes for calling coyotes we feel FOV trumps X's when calling coyotes
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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


That gave me pause to think. I tend to prefer finer reticles. After all I do most of my shooting with my hunting guns at targets, and I much prefer finer reticles for eeking out the smallest possible groups.

A fine center crosshair with coarse posts is the trick. Think LRHS G2H or SS MQ.

I agree with this. Keep in mind that I have not yet run my opinion by the homunculus from Alaska yet; but, that's my take.


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Originally Posted by badger
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Like many of you, I can shoulder a rifle with good glass and think to myself, man that is nice. I have some rifles with good glass and some with mediocre glass. When I go hunting or I go to the range, with both when I put the plus sign on the target and pull the trigger, the bullet goes where its supposed to.

Most of my hunting is southern woods. I have done some open country hunting. Other than an appreciation for the sharpness of the good glass, I can't say that I have ever realized a real benefit from it. Low light situations are an exception.

I have cheap binoculars, decent binoculars and good binoculars. It is especially satisfying to put the Steiners up to my eyes. The sharpness is evident. With that said, they don't give me any information that my Nikons don't also give me. If I can count the points on the mule deer with the Steiners, I can also count them with the Nikons.

Excepting low light performance, does great glass provide any real benefit over good glass? Will a VX5 ever allow me to accomplish anything a VX Freedom won't? Will a MeoStar allow me to accomplish anything a MeoPro won't let me accomplish?


Your disclaimer "Low light is an exception" is, IMO, the crux of the matter. I hunt Georgia hardwoods, and first and last light is prime time for whitetails. The lesson I painfully learned many years ago was the abrupt total loss of performance of cheaper optics below a certain light threshold, still within the "30 minutes after sunset" game regulations in Ga. A very good buck had stepped out of the woods into my food plot about 150 yards away in the fading light. I had watched him with my Zeiss binoculars working his way through the briars for about 10 minutes. No shot opportunity because the brush was so thick. As he made his way onto the food plot I picked up my rifle and could barely make him out for a few fleeting seconds, and then all I could see was fuzzy blackness. I looked again through the binos and could see him quite well, well enough to shoot, if the scope was equal to the binoculars. I was using an inexpensive Simmons. Lesson learned.


Agreed: I live in South Alabama where most of my bucks are killed in the last minutes of daylight. My go-to scopes are from S&B, Trijicon and Nightforce. To me, those optics are worth the money in terms of low light performance as well as reliability/repeatability.

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Originally Posted by ingwe
Good binocs are the shizz....best money I EVER spent on any sporting equipment. The caveat then is to USE them, religiously.

For 99.9% of hunting high dollar "Alpha" scopes are not necessary. But if it floats your boat....

I'll spend 90% of my time looking through binocs, and about .00012% looking through a scope.

Also, as someone mentioned you get into a law of diminishing returns quickly with optics. A $500 binoc is easily twice as good as a $250 one. A $1,000 binoc is by no means twice as good as the $500,and for another $1000 you'll be lucky to get 10% more in performance.


Well said Tom.


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Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


That gave me pause to think. I tend to prefer finer reticles. After all I do most of my shooting with my hunting guns at targets, and I much prefer finer reticles for eeking out the smallest possible groups.


As we all know I am a fan of the Made In USA scopes and you mentioned the VX5.

The illumination allows a very fine reticle that is totally usable in even darkness and can be left on for months.

Fire Dot illumination is a bit of a game changer for hunting reticle design.


I'd like to see a Fire Dot in person, but I hate to bug a local merchant when I am going to order straight from Leupold. Are you aware of any links that might provide an accurate representation of what it looks like both on and off?

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Just go into a local Bass Pro Paul. They have them and you won’t feel as if you are wasting a local merchants time. They are used to tire kickers.

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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Part of what has me asking this question is that I am considering treating myself to a higher dollar scope. I have a highly practical side that I am doing battle with.



Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
I am considering a Leupold VX5 firedot.


I appreciate that people have various conceptions of what is a reasonable amount to spend on hunting, or rifles, or optics. There are guys that accomplish more with an old lever gun and a peep sight than a good portion of the guys that buy Blasers crowned with Z8's. There's nothing wrong with a person who uses a inexpensive or even cheap rifle and cheap optics who hunts ethically and puts meat on the table. On the other hand, I think the experience that a big portion of American hunters have involves a very limited amount of time each year in the field, with a great deal of expenses involved in being there. The biggest expense is likely to be the time away from employment, careers, and businesses. There are also substantial expenses in travel, accommodations, land access, possible guide or pack expenses, and the licenses and tags. In the end, the expense of quality equipment isn't a particularly big factor unless it's only used for a single short season. Even then, it hasn't necessarily lost its value, it's just that disuse lowers its utility. Unless the money saved by buying a cheap scope could buy the hunter more time, it's not a good trade. I don't think that is the case for most people. Our time for hunting is limited and a few hundred or even a thousand dollars isn't going to buy us more.

I agree with Woodhits' comments that a rifle scope is a sight and not an observation device. I would also note that it's not a camera lens. Even on high-end Leica, Swarovski, and Zeiss rifle scopes, there are optical flaws that result in images less optically perfect than lens systems designed at similar expense for observation or photography. They aren't designed for picture-perfect images, but are fit for their purpose. For example, rifle scopes could have substantial axial chromatic aberration. The VX5HD scopes probably have less of that if they use flourite glass (often referred to as HD or ED). While anti-reflective coatings result in higher light transmission and potentially extended low-light visibility, whether less chromatic aberration makes any practical difference in the field may be a moot point. For the same reason a person wouldn't spend many thousands of dollars on a hunting trip and take along a unreliable rifle with a sight that won't hold zero even though it "could work," a rifle scope manufacturer producing a product that is high quality in every other respect isn't going to cheap-out and give the customer glass that produces bad purple fringing with the excuse that, "it doesn't affect accuracy."

Fortunately for hunters, there is a limiting factor on rifle scope expense: weight. Unless you're willing to carry an optic that weighs close to two pounds or more, hunting scopes tend to stay in the $2000 price range. I would also note that optically, scopes tend to be better at lower magnifications which also happen to be better suited to hunting due to the wide field of view.

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WOW cant believe how this thread exploded so fast !!!!!!!!!! lots of differing opinions.

Many years ago I got a screaming deal on a top of the line Pentax Bino, at the time they used Asahi glass that was considered top notch in my industry.

A friend took me out coyote hunting for the first time...........he whispered there is a coyote coming in.......where ???? where ????? where ??????
he handed me his Swaro 10X42 SLC's as I put my Pentax on the ground, I instantly saw the coyote picked up my rifle and was hooked for life !!!!!!

IMO buy the ALPHA bino's and spotting scope, you only NEED 1 or 2 binos (I have 4) and only need 1 spotting scope. so buy the best.....

don't have an exact number but I have 25-30 rifles and no way am I putting ALPHA on all of them it is not needed. my favorite mid priced scope Leupold VX-3i 4.5-14X40 with 30mm tube and side focus, yes the VX5 with firedot is nicer but more money.

I made a huge mistake a couple years ago and had Leupold put a target cross hair in one of my hunting scopes, it is completely unuseable for hunting as you can NEVER see it unless shooting at a white target, and now Leupold's custom shop is closed so it is a safe queen

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20 years ago after going through a few pair of not so great binoculars I finally decided to pony up $830 for a pair of swarovski 10x42 slc's. That was big money to me at the time and those same binos would be about $1700 today. Those binos are my go to binos today while my buddies who were buying $2-300 binos were constantly upgrading to the next "almost as good as swaro/leica/zeiss" ones. Most of them have easily spent twice what I did by now and are still trying to find that magic $300 bino that's as good as an alpha and they still frown a bit when they look through their newest chinese wonder binos then look through mine.

For scopes on my deer rifle I have a meopta 3-12x56 for the low light performance, I've made several shots at last legal light on food plots that I couldn't have made with a leupold freedom. I'd much sooner give up the scope than the binos though. For my prairie dog rifles I've kind of gravitated to sightron SIII's as best compromise between money and repeatability. I do have a couple of nightforces on them too. I don't trust the internals of most lesser scopes. I've had some really accurate rifles start shooting 1" groups that tightened back up when I put a known good scope on it.

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I have a few illuminated reticle scopes. Vortex Viper PST FPS 4-16 and 6-24 were the first. Glass not great and illumination too bright. Got myself a VX5 3-15 CDS with Firedot. Great glass and the firedot is perfect for my needs when I pig hunt. Black pig and near dark was a problem, but the firedot has made it easy. You can turn down the brightness till you can barely see the red dot. Love that scope. Used it on a hog at 300 yards in light so dim that the hog was hard to see. Could not have made the shot without CDS and the firedot.

Had a Vortex Crossfire II 6-18 with V-Brite. Had problem holding Zero. Sent it back. Have an Athlon Midas 2.5-15 with illuminated reticle on my AR. I like it so far, and the lit reticle isn’t too bright.

But the VX5 with firedot is easily the best for dim light hunting for hogs.

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Originally Posted by 603Country


But the VX5 with firedot is easily the best for dim light hunting for hogs.


Yeah that will happen.


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I thought everyone knew the VX6 2-12 with the illuminated long range duplex was the best hunting scope. Unless you're rich, then maybe the Z6i with BRH. smile

+1 on the firedot being very well designed. Daylight bright to dim enough that it just shows up in dark timber - not distracting, just lit enough to easily be placed on target.

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Originally Posted by ingwe
Good binocs are the shizz....best money I EVER spent on any sporting equipment. The caveat then is to USE them, religiously.

For 99.9% of hunting high dollar "Alpha" scopes are not necessary. But if it floats your boat....

I'll spend 90% of my time looking through binocs, and about .00012% looking through a scope.

Also, as someone mentioned you get into a law of diminishing returns quickly with optics. A $500 binoc is easily twice as good as a $250 one. A $1,000 binoc is by no means twice as good as the $500,and for another $1000 you'll be lucky to get 10% more in performance.



Excellent post and very true..


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By disregarding low light use, you are disregarding most big game hunting in North America. Most big game animals are crepuscular, like elk, deer, pigs in many parts of the country etc etc.
So yes, that is where one sees the results with Alpha glass.
Other discussions are almost irrelevant.
Even varmint hunting Which is a daylight venture, one needs Alpha glass. My hunting club has an annual varmint hunt and I’ve hunted along side people that couldn’t even see what I was shooting at because the bins they were using did not have enough contrast to consistently spot ground squirrels at distance. Much less their schitty riflescopes.

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Good to excellent glass will get you first and last light capability on horns....If your eyes are good2go.

Aside from that, unless counting nut hairs or the nipples on the milk maker is your thang. Decent glass with excellent mechanics, if dialing, is more important.

Bins and spotters are for sizing the animal....Usually.

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Originally Posted by mrmarklin
By disregarding low light use, you are disregarding most big game hunting in North America. Most big game animals are crepuscular, like elk, deer, pigs in many parts of the country etc etc.
So yes, that is where one sees the results with Alpha glass.
Other discussions are almost irrelevant.
Even varmint hunting Which is a daylight venture, one needs Alpha glass. My hunting club has an annual varmint hunt and I’ve hunted along side people that couldn’t even see what I was shooting at because the bins they were using did not have enough contrast to consistently spot ground squirrels at distance. Much less their schitty riflescopes.


I am well aware of the low light considerations. I wanted to talk about how good glass comes into play in conditions other than low light. Do you remember which scopes were so bad that they couldn't see ground squirrels at shooting distances?

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Shadows, tree lines, rain, cloudy weather. Good glass will be much better in these spots.


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Originally Posted by slm9s
I thought everyone knew the VX6 2-12 with the illuminated long range duplex was the best hunting scope. Unless you're rich, then maybe the Z6i with BRH. smile

+1 on the firedot being very well designed. Daylight bright to dim enough that it just shows up in dark timber - not distracting, just lit enough to easily be placed on target.

Tangent theta LR hunter?


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the difference it will make depends on if you are a hunter or a shooter.. if you are a hunter you don't need a scope..if you are a shooter then no scope will make you a hunter.... Got it???


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Originally Posted by ingwe
Good binocs are the shizz....best money I EVER spent on any sporting equipment. The caveat then is to USE them, religiously.

Someone here (might have been Allen Day) once said that they'd rather hunt with a $200 rifle and $1,000 binoculars that with a $1,000 rifle and $200 binoculars. Having gone both routes, I'd have to agree.

Same goes for glass on the gun, but most of my hunting takes place in thick brush and low light. I might feel differently if I hunted open country.


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If you even ask the question then you will not understand the advantage of great glass until it costs you a shot



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Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


That gave me pause to think. I tend to prefer finer reticles. After all I do most of my shooting with my hunting guns at targets, and I much prefer finer reticles for eeking out the smallest possible groups.

>> I seriously dislike heavy reticles for anything...
<<<


i do have to agree ! i do not like or have any heavy crosshair scopes anymore,small cross hairs or small dot work better for me at 200- 300-400-500-600 even out too 1,000 yards if you have a rifle that shoots well.

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There is definitely a bit to be gained by high end glass, but your hunting conditions will determine if it is worth the money. To me, what is at least as important as decent glass, is a good reticle that I can see no matter the conditions. In crappy conditions, where there is little contrast and the light is bad, it is sometimes difficult to judge and animal or see your crosshairs in the scope especially when the light is very early or fading into dusk... being in the timber makes it even worse. The wrong reticle when working in the timber is worse than no reticle at all sometimes....

For the purposes a scope is designed for, I've always believed the mid range glass is fine for 99% of hunters' uses as long as it has a useful reticle for your style of hunting. I can't afford the high end Alpha glass and probably wouldn't buy it anyway as my midrange glass has served me well for a very long time.. however, I lust over some very good binos and will soon purchase some Swarovski EL's to replace my aging Leupold Porro Prisms, which are no slouch themselves. The older I get, the more time I spend behind glass searching for animals and the more I want Alpha glass.

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Originally Posted by pete53
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


That gave me pause to think. I tend to prefer finer reticles. After all I do most of my shooting with my hunting guns at targets, and I much prefer finer reticles for eeking out the smallest possible groups.

>> I seriously dislike heavy reticles for anything...
<<<


i do have to agree ! i do not like or have any heavy crosshair scopes anymore,small cross hairs or small dot work better for me at 200- 300-400-500-600 even out too 1,000 yards if you have a rifle that shoots well.



I do not like nor use heavy reticles in quality scores they are unnecessary even in the lowest of light



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Boat Anchor, put that scope in the classifieds, someone can probably use it for varmints, paper, or steel. Most reticles have a good application that will match it.

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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by mrmarklin
By disregarding low light use, you are disregarding most big game hunting in North America. Most big game animals are crepuscular, like elk, deer, pigs in many parts of the country etc etc.
So yes, that is where one sees the results with Alpha glass.
Other discussions are almost irrelevant.
Even varmint hunting Which is a daylight venture, one needs Alpha glass. My hunting club has an annual varmint hunt and I’ve hunted along side people that couldn’t even see what I was shooting at because the bins they were using did not have enough contrast to consistently spot ground squirrels at distance. Much less their schitty riflescopes.


I am well aware of the low light considerations. I wanted to talk about how good glass comes into play in conditions other than low light. Do you remember which scopes were so bad that they couldn't see ground squirrels at shooting distances?


I don't recall the brands. I only shoot with Alpha equipment so it doesn't really matter.

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For scopes, Leupold VX3-esque Glass is perfectly good for all my needs.

For binoculars, only the best will do.

I was watching a Yellow Rumped Warbler on it’s fall migration in my backyard this evening with my Leica Ultravids. I’ve had all manner of binoculars, and there are only a couple that give the visual satisfaction my Ultravids give. As the old preacher said, “it’s better felt than telt.”

The hallmark of top tier binoculars is the ability to resolve detail. I’ve not found lesser tier bins deliver the resolution of the European Alphas. I’d gladly have only one Walmart rifle and the very best binocular money can buy than the reverse. Good binoculars are the gift that keep giving. A rifle is a “one and done” sort of thing...


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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


That gave me pause to think. I tend to prefer finer reticles. After all I do most of my shooting with my hunting guns at targets, and I much prefer finer reticles for eeking out the smallest possible groups.


That’s seems like a truism but actually, all things being equal, it’s how still you hold the rifle. 😉

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Originally Posted by jwp475

If you even ask the question then you will not understand the advantage of great glass until it costs you a shot


Could you take a stab at it? You obviously have experienced it. I'd like to know how it played out for you when it cost you a shot.

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Lots of folks say that a scope is simply an aiming device (aside from ability to hold zero, track properly, etc.) and that bino quality is significantly more important as you'll use them much more often. I don't disagree with that logic, but I should point out that you could see a critter in low light clear as day with GOOD binos, but making it out in your cheap riflescope isn't as easy, then it gets dark and your opportunity is gone. BTDT.

I believe that's what jwp475 is getting at.



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Originally Posted by T_Inman
Lots of folks say that a scope is simply an aiming device (aside from ability to hold zero, track properly, etc.) and that bino quality is significantly more important as you'll use them much more often. I don't disagree with that logic, but I should point out that you could see a critter in low light clear as day with GOOD binos, but making it out in your cheap riflescope isn't as easy, then it gets dark and your opportunity is gone. BTDT.

I believe that's what jwp475 is getting at.


Exactly



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Originally Posted by T_Inman
Lots of folks say that a scope is simply an aiming device (aside from ability to hold zero, track properly, etc.) and that bino quality is significantly more important as you'll use them much more often. I don't disagree with that logic, but I should point out that you could see a critter in low light clear as day with GOOD binos, but making it out in your cheap riflescope isn't as easy, then it gets dark and your opportunity is gone. BTDT.

I believe that's what jwp475 is getting at.

There is also the advantage that bins have because binocular vision vs. monocular as in a rifle scope. In fact, one needs a very good scope to match that advantage.

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In the field not much,IMHO. I guess my eye is just not good enough to tell the difference. Most of the guys that i know that buy $2500.00 bino's do so for the "look at me" factor. "I'm a Real hunter and can afford the best." and I'm cool. Just bought a pair of Pentex 9 X 32's and they work just fine. Of course I'm not using at midnight under a half moon or counting ring on a Big Horn at 1000 yards. I haven't noticed any loss on the "edge".If I loose, run over, or have then stolen I'm out less than $300.00. Some guys just like owning the best, so good for them. I'll spend my money on gas and tags!

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This is a great thread and very informative.

I have several hunting scopes including the GPO Passion, Meopro 4.5-14 x44, 2 Conquests, Kahles KX 3,5-10x50 which is a great scope, but I don’t think it is still in production. A Kahles Multizero 3-10x50 that has held zero at 5 different sitting for years sitting on a Tikka 7-08.

My Steiner Nighthunter Xtreme 2-10x50 illuminated and my Swarovski z6i 2-12x50 are top notch for me and can really get you in trouble if you don’t pay attention to the time at last light. Both can take me well past legal shooting light here in N.C (30 minutes past sundown). The glass in both is exceptional and both have held zero.

I have a pair of MeoStar 7x42 binos (discontinued). The glass is superb and enough eye relief to get a full view without removing my glasses.

Many of these items were purchased at Cameraland. Great folks up there that will steer you right and will not try to oversell you.

Visit Ilya’s site opticsthoughts.com for some great info on scopes and binos in all price ranges. I think he may be the most knowledgeable person on the web when it comes to optics.

Happy hunting and stay safe.

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I had a scope cost me a buck. I could see him in the Leica 10x40 Trinovids, but not in the scope. Which is the buck and which are the does? Being increasingly desperate, I could tell the buck was the 5th one left of the tree. Grabbed the rifle and shot the 5th deer, which was now a doe, since they had switched places.

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I generally don't show alpha binoculars to a regular customer who wants a decent pair of binoculars seeking to fill the freezer. I can say that if you buy a pair of ELs, HTs, SFs, or Noctavids that you will know the benefits very quickly if you use them and set them up right. I think that most people think that 10 or 12 or 15 X are the shiznit and they would be better suited with a very good pair of 8X binoculars that afford a wide field of view.

In 1980 when my brother and I were both spending our money from the first dividend from AK PFD, my brother and I both got vanguards in 300 Win Mag. I decided to buy a 3-9X40 Tasco and he went for a 4X zeiss. His choice continues to work extremely well and was replaced by Zeiss when his rifle was ran over by a weasel track rig. The Tasco never really held for tracking and was less than even mediocre. At the time, I was addicted to SF books and thought that the difference wouldn't matter much. I was wrong. Buy the best optic that you can shoot and don't look back.

I could hunt with a pair of Vipers or a BX-4 Pro Guide for the rest of my life and I would do well. However, with my ELs and hopefully soon my new 12X42 NLs I do better. It is one of the least expensive ways to get to be a better hunter. It does make a difference.

I think that one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that people with very sharp eyesight( corrected or otherwise) like SLCs and see little benefit with the 20 mm of eye relief from the ELs but if you have astigmatism, you reach for them ELs like a fat kid grabbing candy at a parade.

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Trying to explain how good glass makes a difference to someone who has not spent time with premium optics is like attempting to describe how fried shrimp tastes to someone who has never eaten seafood.

No, top-end glass is not needed for the majority of hunting situations. But if your shots typically come at the very beginning or very end of legal shooting light or perhaps you pursue hogs or varmints under moonlight conditions, good glass will often be the difference between you being able to take an ethical shot or having to go home empty-handed. When the ranges are a bit longer and the lighting at its worst, the superior resolving power and transmission of top-tier optics make all the difference in the world. But again, that's something one has to experience for themselves.

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I have Leupold scopes on my big game rifles and have no problem seeing to shoot during legal shooting hours. Just have turn the magnification down as it gets darker.

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Originally Posted by Hogwild7
I have Leupold scopes on my big game rifles and have no problem seeing to shoot during legal shooting hours. Just have turn the magnification down as it gets darker.


What you just described -- having to turn down the power to see -- is one of the things that separates the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. In the worst of lighting, and when the range is beyond stone-throwing distances, you need magnification to make an ethical shot. Set at 3x will for fine for good daylight at most sane ranges, but when the light is all but gone, that same 3x setting at 150+ yards won't allow you to differentiate between fully broadside or quartering or even to make certain you are shooting at the exact deer you want to tag.

Rarely do my scopes get down to as low as 8x -- and most of my shots in moonlight are at least 10x.

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People turn down their scopes too much, they tend to think a giant exit pupil will help.

Anything beyond 7mm is wasted, the outer part of that big shaft of light falls outside of the aperture in the front of your eye. For those of us who are on the top side of fifty that number can very well be smaller than 7.

Example: I often hunt using a Meopta 3-9x42. Set to 3x I'd get a 14mm exit pupil. Awesome, right? Not so actually. Let's say my 55 year old eye might open to 6mm for this discussion. All of the light that fell on the front of the scope got focused into the 14mm beam and the 6mm aperture it's shining on cuts most of it out. To get the correct figure we don't compare diameters, we must compare areas. When that's done we see only about 18% of the light in that beam gets past the front of my eye to shine on my retina where the "seeing action" happens.

So I turn up the scope to 7x. The light falling on the front of the scope is now focused into a 6mm beam, which is also more intense, all of which gets into my eye. A brighter light is shining on my retina. On top of that the deer or whatever looks larger, and larger objects appear brighter to our visual system.

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Paul, I honestly don’t know if the VX5 would allow you to accomplish anything that the Freedom will not. I do know that the VX5 HD (1-5x24) gives me a much better view than the Freedom (1.1-4X20), and also better than the VX-III (1.5-5x20).
Those are as close as I can get for comparison for somewhat equal and somewhat modern scopes. The VX5 HD does have a 4mm larger objective, which I also believe gives it an advantage.

The view from the VX-5 HD is much more pleasing to me. Part of this is I like the wider FOV. But the optical quality of view is better. Particularly in the lower lighting situations. I will add, that the VX-5 HD 1-5x24 seems to be very good optically. My initial opinion is this scope, optically compares well to similar scopes costing much more. This was the first Leupold that I had bought in probably 30 years.

Other than not having a distorted view or a mile of parallax, the low light conditions is always a deciding factor to me. In decent daylight / lightning conditions most all scopes serve the purpose.

I do not hunt the Southern woods, but I did as a kid. I do hunt the Northern woods. My maximum distance in my open / broken terrain is about 225 yds. Even if the target animal is large, I am aiming for small area on it. To me, the quality glass is Very important in the lower powered straight tubed scopes. And extremely important in my binoculars.

I have shot two moose in the forehead at approximately 25 yds. The head shot is not my preferred shot. Sometimes antler parts / body parts are all I can see even on a Large animal at close range. The quality binoculars and scopes, in my opinion, make a difference in positive identification of legality and getting the bullet on an unobstructed path to target.

I don’t knock anyone’s choice of optics. But to me the optics are as important than the rifle or cartridge within reason.
The scope and bullet, to me defines the intended use of the rifle. The older I get, the more I want / need / appreciate any optical enhancement I get.

The reticle is also Very important to me. I prefer a heavier reticle. I don’t care for relying on illumination. I have several illuminated scopes, and I do believe that proper illumination can make a difference in some situations. I have some higher end scopes that the non-illuminated reticle quits before the optics do.

This is my long winded opinion, relevant only to my eyes and hunting situation.

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I have a Leupold VX5HD 3x15x56 and a VX6HD 4x24x52, both are good scopes. My VX5HD has a fire dot and it's a nice feature but I've never needed to turn it on. But neither Leupold scope is as crisp in low light as a Swarovski Z6 2.5-15x56.
The better you can see without a scope, the better you can see with a scope, nothing beats excellent eye sight. I know this thread is about scopes, but my preference is Steiner 10x 50 binoculars. The Steiner's are auto focus once you adjust them to your eyes and you can sweep close to far and there's no need to adjust the focus. Steiner isn't the best binocular, but for hunting their excellent hunting binoculars.


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Originally Posted by mathman
People turn down their scopes too much, they tend to think a giant exit pupil will help.

Anything beyond 7mm is wasted, the outer part of that big shaft of light falls outside of the aperture in the front of your eye. For those of us who are on the top side of fifty that number can very well be smaller than 7.

Example: I often hunt using a Meopta 3-9x42. Set to 3x I'd get a 14mm exit pupil. Awesome, right? Not so actually. Let's say my 55 year old eye might open to 6mm for this discussion. All of the light that fell on the front of the scope got focused into the 14mm beam and the 6mm aperture it's shining on cuts most of it out. To get the correct figure we don't compare diameters, we must compare areas. When that's done we see only about 18% of the light in that beam gets past the front of my eye to shine on my retina where the "seeing action" happens.

So I turn up the scope to 7x. The light falling on the front of the scope is now focused into a 6mm beam, which is also more intense, all of which gets into my eye. A brighter light is shining on my retina. On top of that the deer or whatever looks larger, and larger objects appear brighter to our visual system.


More intense? Really? Explain that one to me.

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Paul,

Here in S.C we hunt till you can’t see any more- pitch black. What I have noticed is that even with my low-to-mid grade binocs, because you are using two eyes and two objectives rather than one, I always seem to have better light than from a single scope tube. I used to have a little trouble at dark with a VX ll trying to figure out exactly where the crosshairs were, but I don’t remember ever making a bad shot because of it. Now, I have completely cured that problem by going to a VX6 with an illuminated dot reticle. It simply works great because you can turn it down so low that you can see it, yet it’s not so bright that it blinds you. I could probably only increase the potential of my set up by going to better binocs with larger objectives (which I would like to do) and maybe scope with bigger objective as the VX glass is already pretty sweet.

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Quote
What Real Difference Does Good Glass Make



It pleases me.


These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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Originally Posted by FTR_Shooter
Originally Posted by mathman
People turn down their scopes too much, they tend to think a giant exit pupil will help.

Anything beyond 7mm is wasted, the outer part of that big shaft of light falls outside of the aperture in the front of your eye. For those of us who are on the top side of fifty that number can very well be smaller than 7.

Example: I often hunt using a Meopta 3-9x42. Set to 3x I'd get a 14mm exit pupil. Awesome, right? Not so actually. Let's say my 55 year old eye might open to 6mm for this discussion. All of the light that fell on the front of the scope got focused into the 14mm beam and the 6mm aperture it's shining on cuts most of it out. To get the correct figure we don't compare diameters, we must compare areas. When that's done we see only about 18% of the light in that beam gets past the front of my eye to shine on my retina where the "seeing action" happens.

So I turn up the scope to 7x. The light falling on the front of the scope is now focused into a 6mm beam, which is also more intense, all of which gets into my eye. A brighter light is shining on my retina. On top of that the deer or whatever looks larger, and larger objects appear brighter to our visual system.


More intense? Really? Explain that one to me.


Same amount of light energy distributed over a smaller area.

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Good glass whether it is binos or scopes is like having air-condtioning, power steering, etc on your vehicle - you can get by without it but once you have had it you don't want to do without it. That is the way I feel about good glass, once you have used it then it is difficult to go back to a lesser item and be satisfied.

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Originally Posted by drover
Good glass whether it is binos or scopes is like having air-condtioning, power steering, etc on your vehicle - you can get by without it but once you have had it you don't want to do without it. That is the way I feel about good glass, once you have used it then it is difficult to go back to a lesser item and be satisfied.

drover

Agreed, I’d just like to add heated and cooled seats though.








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First/last light and glassing into the sun is what expensive glass is for. Just depends on how much you are willing to pay for it.

Reality is if you are taking measurements and counting points at first light, you gotta wait a bit anyway. If you want to drop something that looks big and hope the best, a higher quality to scope will help you do that.

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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by mathman
Yes, the performance increase per dollar curve flattens out considerably once you get to the MeoPro level.


Part of what has me asking this question is that I am considering treating myself to a higher dollar scope. I have a highly practical side that I am doing battle with.

I fought that argument over and over in my mind until I made the plunge and bit the bullet and bought me a very good Leupold VX-3L 4.5-14x56. It's a ridiculously clear scope but not much difference in practice than my Nikons. I have since bought 4 VX-3i 3.5-10X40s which contrary to what is said on here are very clear. And yes, they are a bit of a pain in the ass to site in because they don't track like some are claimed to but once sited in they hold their zero. I don't know of another scope even close in price that is as bright and light weight as these are. And they do what I want them to. End of story.

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Originally Posted by mathman
Originally Posted by FTR_Shooter
Originally Posted by mathman
People turn down their scopes too much, they tend to think a giant exit pupil will help.

Anything beyond 7mm is wasted, the outer part of that big shaft of light falls outside of the aperture in the front of your eye. For those of us who are on the top side of fifty that number can very well be smaller than 7.

Example: I often hunt using a Meopta 3-9x42. Set to 3x I'd get a 14mm exit pupil. Awesome, right? Not so actually. Let's say my 55 year old eye might open to 6mm for this discussion. All of the light that fell on the front of the scope got focused into the 14mm beam and the 6mm aperture it's shining on cuts most of it out. To get the correct figure we don't compare diameters, we must compare areas. When that's done we see only about 18% of the light in that beam gets past the front of my eye to shine on my retina where the "seeing action" happens.

So I turn up the scope to 7x. The light falling on the front of the scope is now focused into a 6mm beam, which is also more intense, all of which gets into my eye. A brighter light is shining on my retina. On top of that the deer or whatever looks larger, and larger objects appear brighter to our visual system.


More intense? Really? Explain that one to me.


Same amount of light energy distributed over a smaller area.


Really? Same amount of light? I don't think so. The light coming in is in direct proportion to the area that you are focused on. That's why the image gets darker as magnification increases because you are looking at a smaller and smaller area of the picture. Extra light does not come in from the surrounding area.

So if by zooming in you decrease the area by 25%, you also reduce the overall light by 25%. The reverse is true.

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Originally Posted by drover
Good glass whether it is binos or scopes is like having air-condtioning, power steering, etc on your vehicle - you can get by without it but once you have had it you don't want to do without it. That is the way I feel about good glass, once you have used it then it is difficult to go back to a lesser item and be satisfied.

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Optic is all about visual, The clearer the better, There are different technology that provide different product with scope clarity.

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Originally Posted by rockinbbar
Once you step up to what i call "medium" glass.... that describes the price too... you can sure tell a big difference in cheap scopes. Lots of great prices and glass in the "medium" range now, more than ever.

Further gain in glass, once you step out of the medium class, is very expensive. You'll spend a lot of bucks before you graduate to a noticeable difference.

I agree with this.


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Originally Posted by Boarmaster123
Originally Posted by rockinbbar
Once you step up to what i call "medium" glass.... that describes the price too... you can sure tell a big difference in cheap scopes. Lots of great prices and glass in the "medium" range now, more than ever.

Further gain in glass, once you step out of the medium class, is very expensive. You'll spend a lot of bucks before you graduate to a noticeable difference.

I agree with this.


The exception to this is Tract Toric rifle scopes they are top tier without the top tier price



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Originally Posted by mathman
Yes, the performance increase per dollar curve flattens out considerably once you get to the MeoPro level.

Bank this one right there. And I will add:
I've owned scopes from Leupolds t0 high end Swaros and Zeiss. For 99% after about the 500 dollar mark, i just don't see the price being worth it. Basically, you are adding about 500 bucks for every minute of shooting light and if you want to mitigate that, just get heavier cross hairs. I tried this with a side by side comparison using a Zeiss Victory and a "lowly" VX3 with standard duplex and heavy cross hairs on a "leopard target". the standard cross hairs were pretty unusable compared to the Zeiss Victory, but the heavy duplex cross hairs made it pretty much even.

2. Binos, different story...almost. The eye strain is definitively an issue, but up to a certain point. For example, I see no really distinct advantage for glassing/hunting between my 15 year old SWARO SLCs and my Leica Geovids. Now if you are looking for DETAIL, as in Bird watching, etc., then then top, top end glass REALLY makes a difference, but your wallet will suffer..


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It all matters how much you glass. I see a lot of people buying cheap spotting scopes. I am thinking great for the range but not so much for hunting. These same guys buy cheap tripods. For working stiffs who don't have much much spend as much on optics as you can and learn what the best tripods are and how to use them. A very good tripod might cost you $300 or more for legs and panhead. Binoculars should be first in quality, then tripod then spotter. But.... You would be better off as a hunter with a Ruger American in 308 winchester and a Burris FF2 3X9 and a pair of SLC HD 8X42 binoculars mounted on a Slik 634SVH tripod with a UTA than you would with $3000 dollar custom 6.5 Creedmoor ELR with a Z5 scope and a pair of Vortex diamondback 12X50s. You have a lot less money in the first option.

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One thing that I haven't seen mentioned in this discussion is how much more use a person will get out of a good binocular. I have my Swaros with me most always, when I am setting on the deck they are beside me or when I am going somewhere in the truck they are with me. I cannot even begin to count how often I will see something that looks interesting and having the binocs just enhances the experience.

I like nice rifles and scopes but if I had to choose between a lesser rifle and scope so that I could have good binocs I would take the good binocs in a heartbeat.

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