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paul i have plenty scopes and brands ,i do like leupold but my favorite scope brand is Nightforce this brand scope adjusts exactly how it is suppose too and on the bench if you need to move turrent click 1/4 or a 1/2 inch it always works that way, many benchrest shoots are won with Nightforce scope too.the last 10 - 15 years all my bucks in Minnesota or out west i used only Nightforce scopes, and when i go to Alaska my rifle will have a Nightforce scope on it too.


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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard

How much can a buyer really learn about the robustness of the mechanics? We obviously have a pretty large body of knowledge here due in a large part to the work of Form and a few others. If someone wasn't aware of their works, how would they learn about the internals?


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Paul I understand your practicality issue. The issue comes with your hunting conditions and hours. We are allowed to go 1 hr after official. The leaf canopy does not drop till late in the season. This can make for challenging light conditions. The mid price point ($500 MSRP) definitely hold advantage over lesser scopes. A Meopro/Conquest are more useful than a Freedom in these conditions. A open prairie hunter probably wouldn’t notice the difference. Nor a hunter in a state with shorter hunting hours.
All of my rifles that are a favorite have this level or better optics.
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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by WAM
Obviously, quite a few folks think high end glass is worth the expense. I snicker silently when guys are woofing about their $150 scopes and $99 binoculars and how good they are and just as good as Swarovski, Leica, etc. Betting most have never looked through alpha optics outside of a box store. To each his own.


I have never had the pleasure of using "alpha" glass. I am assuming as with most things there is a point of diminishing returns with the clarity/sharpness of glass. For example, I can see an appreciable difference between my Sightron S1 and my Leupold VX-2. I can see a difference between my VX-II and my MeoPro, although it's less pronounced. As a consequence, most of my glass is in the VX-II range.

I totally agree that the point of diminishing returns is about where you stated. Not everyone can benefit from super high end optics due to their own vision limitations. First / last light performance is where it makes a difference to me. Most any scope works ok in good light as long as it tracks and/or holds zero. One of the best adjustment tracking scopes I’ve used is a Sightron S-II. Happy Trails


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Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.

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I've had a few instances where I was a minute or two out from legal shooting time cutoff and was able to make a shot because of "decent" scope glass, combined with an adequate reticle. They were made with a 6x42 Leupold, a tritium-lit Trijicon, and an illuminated Bushnell LRTSi. The glass quality was good enough to bring in enough light. I've hunted a few cheapy scopes that would not have allowed those shots. Like others say, buy good binoculars, and stay away from those scopes that have a drastic difference in image quality from you binocs when the light gets dim. Many of us have been in a situation where the binocs can give a suitable image, but the scope has already faded out.


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An anecdote that may or may not be relevant - In Wyoming last year I found some Antelope at a considerable distance (think indirect fire) with my 8.5 Swaro ELs. When I tried to view them through my 30+ year old Vari X III 6.5-20 (on 20 of course) they were hard to make out. I was shocked that the 8 power top tier glass could see things in detail that the 20 power mid tier (arguably) could not. This experience was a real eye opener for me.
In the interest of full disclosure all of my rifles wear mostly older Leupolds and newer Meopros (which I prefer) and I have never felt at a disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by pete53
paul i have plenty scopes and brands ,i do like leupold but my favorite scope brand is Nightforce this brand scope adjusts exactly how it is suppose too and on the bench if you need to move turrent click 1/4 or a 1/2 inch it always works that way, many benchrest shoots are won with Nightforce scope too.the last 10 - 15 years all my bucks in Minnesota or out west i used only Nightforce scopes, and when i go to Alaska my rifle will have a Nightforce scope on it too.


Yes.

And you need a rifle that shoots 1 MOA or less for a scope with top notch mechanics to shine. What a pleasure it is to make an adjustment, no matter how slight and see it on paper! Fuggh the glass. Most all are acceptable in tbis day and age. There is no compromise with adjustments like there is glass


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Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


Not so much when Black Bear hunting. Been there multiple times at last legal light.


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Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


That gave me pause to think. I tend to prefer finer reticles. After all I do most of my shooting with my hunting guns at targets, and I much prefer finer reticles for eeking out the smallest possible groups.

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Originally Posted by Sakoluvr
Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


Not so much when Black Bear hunting. Been there multiple times at last legal light.


Oh yeah, that wasn't on my radar. Where I hunt you're better off shooting yourself instead of a black bear. grin

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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


That gave me pause to think. I tend to prefer finer reticles. After all I do most of my shooting with my hunting guns at targets, and I much prefer finer reticles for eeking out the smallest possible groups.


Horses for courses.

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Originally Posted by mathman
Originally Posted by Sakoluvr
Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


Not so much when Black Bear hunting. Been there multiple times at last legal light.


Oh yeah, that wasn't on my radar. Where I hunt you're better off shooting yourself instead of a black bear. grin


LOL


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Originally Posted by Sakoluvr
Originally Posted by pete53
paul i have plenty scopes and brands ,i do like leupold but my favorite scope brand is Nightforce this brand scope adjusts exactly how it is suppose too and on the bench if you need to move turrent click 1/4 or a 1/2 inch it always works that way, many benchrest shoots are won with Nightforce scope too.the last 10 - 15 years all my bucks in Minnesota or out west i used only Nightforce scopes, and when i go to Alaska my rifle will have a Nightforce scope on it too.


Yes.

And you need a rifle that shoots 1 MOA or less for a scope with top notch mechanics to shine. What a pleasure it is to make an adjustment, no matter how slight and see it on paper! Fuggh the glass. Most all are acceptable in tbis day and age. There is no compromise with adjustments like there is glass


Something Form wrote that really stuck with me is "scopes are first and foremost an aiming device" or something very close to that.

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Re: making your shot true.....in the end, can you see your target 'well enough' to paste a visible crosshair on vitals. After that, the 'Sighting device' must be reliable, consistency matters, for shot to shot accuracy and precision.

Nice Glass and optics are nice...but not always essential to success. It never hurts however to have quality throughout from glass to rugged repeatable internals.

LOTS of game have dropped to scopes, or sights of various kinds, that are far INFERIOR to the current Freedom line of scopes, FWIW.

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The value of high end optics is diminished when looking through yo walmart glasses or if your eyesight has been compromised over the years but not to the point of needed corrective lens.

For some it is no problem getting a high end optic and paying 3-4-5,000 dollars but cheap out on corrective lens.

I use mid range optics that hold zero and track as they should, my corrective lens are Zeiss, they cost $1300 and provide me with 20-20 in one eye and 20-40 in the other.

A lens replacement will put me at 20-20 for both free where with the deal I have.

No bragging rights though with a mid range optic.

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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


That gave me pause to think. I tend to prefer finer reticles. After all I do most of my shooting with my hunting guns at targets, and I much prefer finer reticles for eeking out the smallest possible groups.

A fine center crosshair with coarse posts is the trick. Think LRHS G2H or SS MQ.

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I don't have an LRHS, but the coarse posts of my 6x42 SS Milquads don't come in tight enough to center for how I'd use them in the real dark situation.

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Originally Posted by Sakoluvr
Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


Not so much when Black Bear hunting. Been there multiple times at last legal light.

+ A lot!


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Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by mathman
Bold reticles help, even when not illuminated.


That gave me pause to think. I tend to prefer finer reticles. After all I do most of my shooting with my hunting guns at targets, and I much prefer finer reticles for eeking out the smallest possible groups.

I seriously dislike heavy reticles for anything...


Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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