Home Forums Lever Action Central Lever Actions - General .30-30 for elk

I've been hunting elk with a .308 for over 30 years without losing a single animal. If you're suggesting my .308 is inadequate then you obviously have not used this cartridge enough to admire its accurasy and knock down power. Nor can you make a viable agruement against historical facts.

My Dad (age 81) killed a stack of Wyoming elk with his 300 Savage rifle. Yet he never felt under gunned either.

Just because Jim Carmichael and Craig Boddington claim 338 MAG is minimum for elk does not make it so. Neither journalist has ever lived in Wyoming. FACT: Their hunts are guided every step of the way and paid for by big ad sponsers in the magazines they write for.

Any animal shot twice with the .308 has more area of wound channel damage than one shot with a 338 MAG. Do the math or study wound channels if you dis-believe me.

I'm not angry with you, simply stating the facts. Good elk hunting to you.
Buck

Just pointing out that the statement you made about the 30-30 could be made about your 308, or any cartridge for that matter. You must know, and abide by your limits. If you do, the 30-30, or your 308 will not fail you.
I hunt moose with a 308, but one of our guys has used a 30-30 to do the job for better than fourty years. He's good with it, and he's proven it works, dead moose after dead moose.
I'm afraid I have less faith in gun writers than even you, and even less in paper ballistics, and artificial wound channels. Results speak volumes. The 30-30 continues to work.
Here's an example from Lyman's cast bullet handbook
They got a 30-30 cast bullet to out penetrate a 30-06 factory load in ballistic gelatin. What exactly did that prove? That it works, in ballistic gelatin, not in the real world.
Shoot end to end through a white tail deer at 20 yards with a 30-30? Surprizingly, yes, I have. Not with their fancy #2 alloy cast bullet, but with a bullet cast from common wheelweights, and hardened by dropping in water. Real world performance, bullet not recovered, deer with very messy cleaning job, very dead.

John,

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I'm glad you have had good success with your .308, too. I shot only one mooose with my .308 and used 180 grain round nosed Remington core-loct ammo. Distance was approx. 175 yards or so. First bullet had no effect. After the second shot the bull stumbled, then trotted away. But we heard him topple over just a few seconds later. We waited 20 minutes and approached the colossal beast. He was dead as Julius Caesar. Both bullets struck within my open hand length of each other. The inside of his chest cavity looked like he swallowed a grenade.

I knew an old trapper who lived near Colony, Wyoming when I was a young man. His name was Harry. He killed elk every year with an antique 99 Savage rilfe in 303 caliber. Harry always shot twice. His choice of rifles reflected his theory that multiple hits equals a very dead animal. Harry claimed the 190 gr bullet was better for elk than 170 gr bullet in 30-30. Since he had used both, I assumed he knew what he what talking about.

In conclusion, a good hunter with patience to wait for the right angle will do okay with just about any big game cartridge. Animals are killed by well placed big game bullets that destroy vital organs. Animals are wounded by poorly placed shots that damage less vital organs or muscle tissue. Ballistic charts are helpful. But they do not provide a mathematical explanation for lethality when shot placement is ideal!

Good moose hunting to you.
Buck

I tell this story about once every year but it is a good one and bears repeating.

In 1976 I was attending USU in Logan, UT. There was a small informal rifle range in the canyon along US 89 between Logan and Ogden. One day before hunting season there was half a dozen shooters at this range sighting in our rifles. We all had scoped somethings; 06's and .270's mostly, I happened to be using a Ruger #1 .25-06. We were all shooting over rests of some kind and making those last half inch scope adjustments to get the groups j-u-s-t right.

About halfway through the shooting session this old beat up green pickup pulls up, probably a late fifties vintage. An old man and woman were in the front seat. The old man gets out of the pickup and he is an �Old Timer� right out of central casting � sweat stained hat, red neckerchief, three day grey stubble, could be in his late seventies or perhaps just real weather beaten sixties. He goes down range and sets up a cardboard box about the size that might have held a console TV or maybe even a dishwasher. No aiming point or target, just the box. He walks back down to the firing line and fires three shots off hand from a Winchester Model 94 .30-30 as seasoned and worn as he was. When he brings the box back to the firing line there is a roughly triangular group about 12� across right in the middle of the box. �See there, Martha�, he says to the woman in the truck, �she�s still shootin� where she was last year.� He gets in the truck and off he drives.

When I was heading back to Logan I passed a small ranch and barn, and in the front yard of that ranch house was that same old beat up green pickup. Nailed to the front of the barn were more deer and elk antlers than I could count in the few seconds it took to drive by. Suffice to say the whole front of the barn was covered.

Circumstantial evidence to be sure. Maybe all those elk were shot with a .300 Win. Mag and a high powered Leupold scope, but I doubt it.

Is a .30-30 good enough for elk? I think the hunter is more important than which rifle he uses. I am often reminded of that old saying attributed to an Indian guide I read in a Gun Digest many years ago, �any gun good gun, shootum good�.

Ain't this the type of post where everyone gets really nasty and defensive? Hasn't really happened yet...that's great.

100 yards and in with a 30-30 you've hunted with alot and shoot very well? I'd load that sucker with Nosler Partitions and make sure I had a very sharp knife.

This is, however, the perfect justification to go out and splurge on that Marlin 1895 45/70.
You know you want it! Don't lie!

I know I want one...handled one in the shop today. Long barrel ballard rifled model with crisp checkering and nice walnut. I could taste that crisp mountain air and see that big bull blowing steam out his nostrils. Quick, he's looking the other way...gotta bring this Marlin to bear......BOOOOOOM....where's my bowie?

I really do want one. But that is besides the point. I really want one or two of each. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What ELK loads for a .30/30? 170 grain bullets are the preferred choice. If actually putting a lot of pre-planning and forethought into it; get a couple boxes of CoreLokt soft points, hollow point CoreLokt, Silvertip, and Nosler Partition and see if any of them display any signifigant accuracy advantages over the other. The Silvertip and the CoreLokt soft point will likely prove the "softest" of the bunch with the hollow point CoreLokt and the Partition giving the best penetration potential. For the most part however, about any 170 grain bullet will run out of velocity after impact before it runs out of bullet integrity. Penetration of various 170's will likely only differ by only small amounts. Shoot well, eat well. AW

I have no problem with the 30-30 and do feel that the levergun is the only way to go. If our forefathers used them than why not us? I like the challenge. Do however consider a lever with a bigger bore. The current 444, 450, and 45-70's are outstanding and will drop your elk in its tracks. While on the subject, if you are in to nostalgia try a 307 Winchester.

LeverMan
Life is too short to shoot anything but a LeverGun!

I've always found it interesting that HUNTING Magazine ALWAYS favors the biggest cartridge for game. For example, they recommended 44 MAG for deer for couple decades but know its the 454 Casull. For elk it must be a 338 MAG or a Weatherby cartridge. For deer it must be the latest and greatest bolt action something or other.

But all these articles amount to so much barnyard compost after all. If we believe everything we read it goes like this: Shoot a deer with a 44 MAG revolver and he bites the dust. But shoot him with a rifle and it better be something way more powerful or else the deer will simply be tickled as the bullet bounces off! Shoot that buck with a 50 caliber muzzle-loader and he will topple. But make the same shot at the same distance with a 30-30 and supposedly the deer will get away wounded.

In my opinion, the 30-30 is lethal way beyond 50 caliber muzzle-loader distance or 454 Casull for that matter. But you'll never read this fact in HUNTING Magazine!
Buck

Lever Lad I would very much like to get a 45-70 but am a little put off by Marlins guide guns. I would like a longer barrel on one and I would think the ported muzzle would bust ear drums. Who else is make 45-70 lever guns? I havn't head of any lately.

Muleskinner if it makes you feel better I went out and got me a 30/40 Krag. Now I can really reach out and swat those elk good.

Hell boys, I'm losin' sleep 'bout all the nice bulls gonna get 30-30 bullets in their paunch next season. I tell you what, anybody cain't afford anythin' but a 30-30 to take on their $3,000 elk hunt can come to my house, an' I'll loan them my .348 for the season. Jus' leave me yer 30-30, an' maybe a small child yer wife is fond of, an' you can take my M71 to put a proper thumpin' on a wapiti.

Mule skinner:

.348 is one of those cartridges that has a small but loyal following. But the 71 is difficult to make precison hits at long range. The open sights are simply inadequate for long shots past, say, 175 yards. I owned one briefly in the early 19070's but sold it because of the fierce recoil and 4 inch groups at 100 yards. I prefer my automatic Browning in .308 with 2X-7X scope!

Why Marlin has ignored this .348 cartridge is beyond my comprehension. Seems to me that it would outsell their 444.

Buck

You solt a 71?! Poor boy. 4" groups? Hell, you didn't have to sell 'er, jus' grow a pair, or go sneak 'em outta yer wife's purse afor you go shootin'! My 348 shoots 1.25" groups with peepers. Learn to shoot a 348 with a metal buttplate, an' shootin' good groups with other cartridges becomes a breeze. You jus' gotta have the right attitude. M71 is the smoothest, tightest, best-made levergun to come down the pipe. I won't hesitate to shoot 200 yds. Ain't fer everbody, though. Wimmins, novice hunters, an' girlie boys ain't apt to be good with a M71. That's why there's such a limited group of owners. M71 hunters are borned, not made.

Sold a 348? Still critize Mule for only havin a M71 not an original W71 . I passionately defend my right to shoot anything in N America with a 348... and with open sights. Something I cannot say about my 30-30 or my 35 Rem. I like and respect 356/358 cartride as well.
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200 +_ yds well mostly in my dreams as I make my own hunts and ask my friends no scope is gonna make a diff. But a 30-30?? not unless ya got nothing else. Sorry!

And I plan to spend a bundle opn my fall hunt and it will be with the 348 and 30-06 Win 70 with 4X Nikon as a back up also has iron sights.



bc

Kinda plucky fer a cannuck. I reckin' me an' my 1986 M71 ain't fit to stomp the same ground with an ORIGINAL M71 toter. Course, them older guns is charmin', but there's sumthin' to be said fer new metal. As young a pup you are, bc, yer apt to wear thet ol' gun out an' have to buy 'nother M71. Hope you ain't too sour on the Brownings, 'cause there ain't so many of them original M71s to replace it with. Now mine, will probly las' this ol' coon long enuff, an' probly outlast my boy too. So waller in yer glory of havin' a original M71 while you can, afor the old metal in the barrel starts openin' up them groups an' you gotta think 'bout retirin' it an' gettin' a new, tight shootin' Browning.

Mule
real nice to reply to this young pups post. I guess this old W 71 will last my lifetime and that of my sons. Actually this will be my first year to cut my teeth on this ultimate lever cartridge. Ever use hawk 270 gr. in yours??
2004 got some plans ....keep your calendar open, like your sights.

bc

Wassamatta, the 250s didn't kick you hard enuff? I reckin' I'll stick with the ol' reliable 200s. Got way too many of 'em to switch bullets. They kick me hard enuff. I reckin' yer jus' a glutton fer punishment. Here's a hint: the 348 ain't really a musk ox cartridge, jus' feels like one.

Muleskinner in addition to a 348 do I also need a 3000.00 dollar guide to kill elk? I thought all I needed were a rifle and good hunting skills. But if you think big rifles and a guide are necessary its probaly best you stick with them. Good luck this season!

Best thing 'bout the 348, either old or new, its got a metal buttplate to whack folks what need it up aside their haid. A guide don't cost $3,000. Thet's the cost of yer horse, yer bed, an' yer meals. The guide would be happy with $300 for a week's worth of totin' yer sorry arse 'round the mountings. You ever lived off $300 a week? Mos' dudes don't even tip that. Reminds me why I got outta that business. Ask yer wife if she feels appreciated. I doubt yer guide will feel any differnt.