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What powder for the 358 Winchester is considered to be the most temperature stable? I may hunt in freezing temperatures to summer time temperatures in the mid to upper 90s and would prefer to develop one load for each of the 6 rifles I have chambered in 358 Winchester. Bolt, lever and AR platforms, 16" - 24" barrels.
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Cant speak directly to the 358 but have its cousin - 338 Federal. I concentrated on temp insensitive powders and came up with Benchrest, AR Comp, Re15, IMR 4166, Varget, H4895. I'd throw in Big Game and H322 as well.
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I use H-4895 with 180 Barnes bullets.
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I'd go H4198 with 200-grain bullets, H322 with 250-grain bullets, because they are both known to be temperature tolerant. H4895 should be perfectly acceptable, too. If you want a real answer to your question, I think you'd need to specify a bullet weight and then someone who has fiddled with .358 extensively might be able to give you a truly valid answer.
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The main bullet I plan on using is the Sierra #2850 225gr Spitzer.
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A potential problem is that the temperature stability of a given powder is not constant across different cartridges, and you can pretty much bet the 358 Win. wasn't the cartridge the powder was optimized around.
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I shoot a lot of H4895 in mine.
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Varget gives top velocities with a 225 gr bullet in the 358 win if you can find it.
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Can't go wrong with H4895. I use it in my 358 win and my 35 Whelan.
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Ramshot says TAC is very good for a double based powder. It certainly is capable of some impressive velocities in 358win. Enough so you load it a little under max and still beat the velocity of most other powders and still avoid high pressure on hot summer days. Oh and it meters really good.
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I'll second noKnees. Both TAC and Xterminator shoot well in both my 358 and 356 with excellent velocity. I shot a deer in December up here with my 358 at about 200 yards with the 200 Hornady and TAC with no issues. Ramshot says this about their powders:
Most of our powders are not insensitive, and will show some effect at hot and cold temperatures.
However, we test at -40F and +125F and the deviation in most cases are ca 3% to 5% at these extreme levels. Therefore most shooters do not notice much difference under normal practical hunting conditions.
More elaboration on the subject:
Complete temperature stability can only be achieved with tubular extruded powders designs, either with double base (NG) and/or with other coating technologies.
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Here's a QuickOLAD powder profile, uisng a 20-inch barrel since that is the median of the lengths you mention. Mathman is right, powder's behavior in response to temperature is not linear across the spectrum of cartridges. The first powder in this list that I KNOW to be "temperature tolerant" is H4895 AR-Comp, but the fact of the matter is that BL-C2 or W748 may well play nice in the .358W over a wide range of temps. The .358 is a rather mild cartridge and shouldn't be too persnickety. Whatever the case, QuickLOAD's solutions should always be regarded as a scientific wild ass guess when it comes to actually charging a case. My first response in this thread is erroneous. I had to reinstall QuickLOAD a week ago and it carries certain default values which affect the results, one being the maximum Loading/Filling ratio. I reset that to 110% because I often find that I can easily get the powder charge under a seated bullet For my own purposes, when I use this tool to get some idea what powders I might use, I look at velocity, propellant burnt %, and fill ratio---in that order. I most often reject a powder that shows a % burnt of less than 95%. There are quite a few powders in this output that probably aren't available in the USA, but I think Powder Valley offers some of the Vectan powders (or was it Graf & Sons?). The Lovex products can in some cases be cross referenced to some of the Shooters World powders. Cartridge : .358 Win.
Bullet : .358, 225, Sierra SPBT 2850
Useable Case Capaci: 47.725 grain H2O = 3.099 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.780 inch = 70.61 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
67 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 75%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon BL-C2 107.1 51.4 3.33 2502 97.0 58740 7670 1.021
Winchester 748 104.3 49.4 3.20 2501 98.0 58740 7472 1.017
Alliant AR-Comp *C *T 108.6 46.2 3.00 2497 100.0 58740 6647 1.016
Bofors RP11 TZ *CT approximation 108.0 46.2 3.00 2497 100.0 58740 6647 1.016
Accurate 2495 110.0 47.3 3.07 2493 100.0 57614 7160 1.055
Accurate 2520 107.8 50.0 3.24 2492 98.7 58740 7340 1.030
Lovex D073.6 110.0 49.9 3.23 2484 98.6 58101 7328 1.034
Hodgdon H4895 108.7 47.8 3.10 2477 96.5 58740 7479 1.031
Nitrochemie A/S 0300 96.1 43.4 2.81 2472 100.0 58740 6695 1.029
Ramshot Wild Boar 106.7 50.2 3.25 2471 95.5 58740 7459 1.025
Hodgdon H335 98.9 47.5 3.08 2467 99.2 58740 7139 1.027
ADI AR 2206H 108.8 47.9 3.10 2467 95.8 58740 7442 1.033
Norma 202 *C 109.8 47.5 3.08 2467 99.2 58740 7136 1.031
Somchem S321 103.7 49.1 3.18 2465 97.4 58740 7351 1.033
PB Clermont PCL 507 *C 105.6 48.5 3.14 2464 97.2 58740 7304 1.029
ADI AR 2219 98.6 44.8 2.90 2463 99.7 58740 6931 1.025
Hodgdon H322 104.9 44.8 2.90 2463 99.7 58740 6931 1.025
SNPE Vectan SP 10 98.5 46.3 3.00 2462 99.1 58740 7096 1.032
PB Clermont PCL 508 *C (PCL223) 98.4 46.4 3.00 2461 99.1 58740 7086 1.032
SNPE Vectan SP 9 109.5 49.7 3.22 2461 95.6 58740 7373 1.027
SF033 fl, russ. 5,45x39 99.6 44.8 2.90 2456 100.0 58740 6361 1.040
Vihtavuori N530 *C 104.4 46.2 2.99 2451 97.3 58740 7186 1.031
IMR 4895 110.0 48.4 3.14 2449 95.0 54621 7596 1.056
PB Clermont PCL 516 109.3 51.2 3.32 2447 92.9 58740 7367 1.028
Accurate 2460 102.3 48.4 3.14 2444 98.0 58740 7049 1.046
Lovex D073.5 102.6 48.4 3.14 2444 98.0 58740 7049 1.046
Norma 201 *C 110.0 47.3 3.07 2444 97.2 58644 7192 1.046
ReloadSwiss RS 40 102.2 45.9 2.97 2444 98.4 58740 7021 1.034
Somchem S341 107.5 50.9 3.30 2444 95.3 58740 7155 1.027
IMR 8208 XBR 106.7 46.9 3.04 2443 97.1 58740 7102 1.033
Hodgdon CFE223 *C 110.0 52.8 3.42 2442 92.5 55075 7662 1.045
Rottweil R901 108.1 45.2 2.93 2440 99.1 58740 6984 1.057
IMR 3031 110.0 45.2 2.93 2436 99.6 51867 7135 1.069
Ramshot Big Game 110.0 51.6 3.34 2436 94.1 54691 7507 1.049
Alliant Reloder-10x *C 102.2 42.4 2.75 2435 100.0 58740 6491 1.044
Alliant Reloder-12 104.3 46.8 3.03 2433 99.6 58740 6748 1.033
ReloadSwiss RS 52 110.0 50.0 3.24 2430 96.2 51542 7592 1.070
Lovex D073.4 100.5 47.4 3.07 2429 97.9 58740 6905 1.045
SNPE Vectan SP 7 107.1 50.5 3.28 2427 92.8 58740 7177 1.039
Accurate 2015 105.2 44.3 2.87 2424 100.0 58740 6451 1.049
Accurate 2230 101.3 48.3 3.13 2422 96.4 58740 6947 1.043
Vihtavuori N540 *C 110.0 48.9 3.17 2421 98.6 54850 7160 1.058
Norma 200 *C 98.2 42.3 2.74 2419 100.0 58740 6322 1.059
Ramshot TAC *C 105.4 50.0 3.24 2417 92.1 58740 7178 1.039
Alliant Reloder-15 *C 110.0 48.4 3.14 2416 93.9 53507 7423 1.069
Raufoss RA11 110.0 48.4 3.14 2416 93.9 53507 7423 1.069
Bofors RP11 ~approximation 110.0 48.4 3.14 2416 93.9 53507 7423 1.069
Ramshot X-Terminator *C 102.9 48.3 3.13 2415 95.4 58740 7011 1.041
ADI AR 2210 98.7 44.8 2.91 2411 97.9 58740 6809 1.041
Norma 203B *C 110.0 48.4 3.14 2406 94.4 52281 7403 1.078
Bofors RP2 NT *C ~approximation 107.3 46.8 3.03 2406 96.1 58740 6854 1.038
ADI BM2 96.5 45.2 2.93 2403 97.9 58740 6744 1.043
Somchem S335 108.9 46.9 3.04 2403 99.6 58740 6560 1.049
Hodgdon Benchmark 104.8 45.4 2.94 2402 97.7 58740 6749 1.043
Accurate 2200 95.7 42.8 2.77 2401 98.7 58740 6624 1.042
Lovex S060 107.6 46.1 2.98 2391 95.7 58740 6772 1.043
IMR 4198 100.9 39.8 2.58 2390 100.0 58740 5961 1.035
Rottweil R902 110.0 46.7 3.02 2389 96.5 54952 6985 1.077
ADI AR 2207 96.2 39.6 2.56 2388 100.0 58740 5916 1.049
ADI AR 2206 106.8 46.5 3.01 2384 96.2 58740 6699 1.044
Vihtavuori N130 *C 104.5 43.0 2.79 2383 100.0 58740 6105 1.049
Accurate 1680 87.7 40.3 2.61 2381 99.9 58740 6233 1.045
Alliant Reloder-7 95.3 40.6 2.63 2379 100.0 58740 6032 1.054
Vihtavuori N133 *C 110.0 44.3 2.87 2374 100.0 56992 6191 1.053
Kazan Sunar 308W 99.5 42.8 2.77 2374 100.0 58740 6082 1.051
Bofors RP1 NT *C ~approximation 96.3 41.1 2.66 2373 99.4 58740 6264 1.040
Winchester 296 75.3 35.6 2.31 2372 100.0 58740 5835 1.061
Lovex S062 110.0 47.1 3.05 2371 96.0 51885 7049 1.094
Elcho TR140 - preliminary data 110.0 50.0 3.24 2368 91.7 52914 7082 1.077
Accurate 5744 83.5 35.1 2.28 2366 100.0 58740 6003 1.043
Lovex D060 85.4 35.1 2.28 2366 100.0 58740 6003 1.043
Hodgdon H380 110.0 49.4 3.20 2364 91.1 51450 7225 1.092
Hodgdon H4198 96.8 40.0 2.59 2363 99.5 58740 6131 1.043
ReloadSwiss RS 36 90.5 38.7 2.51 2361 100.0 58740 5761 1.050
IMR 4320 110.0 47.6 3.08 2361 93.5 52035 7023 1.077
SNPE Vectan SP 11 110.0 50.0 3.24 2355 92.5 48691 7345 1.103
Bofors RP3 110.0 48.9 3.17 2354 94.5 47710 7305 1.121
Norma 203 old 110.0 48.9 3.17 2354 94.5 47710 7305 1.121
ReloadSwiss RS 50 110.0 50.3 3.26 2352 89.1 53584 6997 1.078
Accurate 4064 110.0 47.3 3.07 2348 98.0 46453 7183 1.154
Vihtavuori N120 *C 98.8 39.7 2.57 2344 100.0 58740 5492 1.055
ADI AR 2208 110.0 47.0 3.04 2344 93.0 51906 6940 1.085
Lovex D063 80.4 36.9 2.39 2343 100.0 58740 5709 1.045
Vihtavuori N125 *C 93.2 38.1 2.47 2338 100.0 58740 5477 1.058
Hodgdon H4227 91.1 36.7 2.38 2336 100.0 58740 5519 1.049
Hodgdon VARGET *T 110.0 46.8 3.03 2336 92.8 51331 6915 1.090
Nitrochemie A/S 0200 82.5 36.3 2.35 2325 100.0 58740 5442 1.062
IMR 4227 90.3 36.4 2.36 2324 100.0 58740 5482 1.050
Elcho 17 110.0 50.8 3.29 2315 90.7 45056 7623 1.136
Alliant Reloder-17 *T 110.0 50.8 3.29 2315 90.7 45056 7623 1.136
ReloadSwiss RS 30 91.0 35.3 2.29 2312 100.0 58740 5233 1.059
IMR 4064 110.0 45.7 2.96 2310 92.8 49645 6762 1.110
Bofors RP7 NT *C ~approximation 110.0 48.8 3.16 2309 87.5 52620 6736 1.082
Hodgdon H110 76.7 36.2 2.35 2309 100.0 58740 5398 1.072
Lovex S053 91.8 36.2 2.35 2299 100.0 58740 5241 1.064
Somchem S355 110.0 47.3 3.07 2298 93.2 45820 7018 1.147
ReloadSwiss RS 60 *T 110.0 50.8 3.29 2298 91.0 44118 7716 1.148
Hodgdon H414 110.0 51.2 3.32 2293 84.7 46357 7183 1.131
Winchester 760 110.0 51.2 3.32 2293 84.7 46357 7183 1.131
IMR 4007 SSC 110.0 49.1 3.18 2292 86.2 50985 6759 1.110
Rottweil R903 110.0 47.9 3.10 2286 92.9 43952 7039 1.163
Vihtavuori N140 *C 110.0 46.5 3.01 2280 95.2 47584 6569 1.129
Hodgdon Lil'Gun 75.4 34.4 2.23 2278 100.0 58740 5109 1.083
IMR 4166 Enduron *C*T 110.0 46.3 3.00 2272 87.5 51300 6511 1.110
IMR 4451 Enduron *C*T 110.0 47.8 3.10 2262 86.3 48664 6632 1.124
Accurate 2700 110.0 50.5 3.27 2256 85.8 52087 6329 1.110
Somchem S265 88.5 35.7 2.32 2254 100.0 58740 4991 1.079
Bofors RP3 NT *C ~approximation 110.0 48.1 3.12 2254 88.0 47919 6563 1.126
Vihtavuori N135 *C 110.0 43.9 2.84 2252 98.7 42702 6435 1.177
Vihtavuori N550 *C 110.0 49.4 3.20 2246 87.6 41515 7148 1.184
Rottweil R910 78.7 32.0 2.07 2237 100.0 58740 4728 1.078
ADI AR 2205 85.3 35.7 2.31 2236 100.0 58740 4929 1.069
PB Clermont PCL 511 110.0 51.6 3.34 2234 84.1 43006 7052 1.170
Vihtavuori N110 *C 86.2 32.2 2.08 2226 100.0 58740 4730 1.084
PB Clermont PCL 512 75.8 31.9 2.07 2213 100.0 58740 4676 1.086
Rottweil R907 110.0 47.5 3.08 2210 84.3 45495 6493 1.168
Bofors RP7 110.0 47.5 3.08 2210 84.3 45495 6493 1.168
Lovex S040 78.2 30.7 1.99 2201 100.0 58740 4593 1.077
Lovex S065 110.0 47.3 3.07 2187 86.5 42290 6521 1.201
Alliant Reloder-16 *C *T 110.0 47.1 3.05 2174 85.3 39205 6857 1.217
SNPE Vectan BA6½ 95.6 34.5 2.24 2163 100.0 58740 4350 1.094
Norma URP *C 110.0 47.9 3.10 2163 85.6 37906 6782 1.235
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 110.0 47.9 3.10 2162 85.5 37870 6777 1.235
ReloadSwiss RS 62 110.0 50.7 3.29 2160 83.9 37266 6940 1.242
Vihtavuori N150 *C 110.0 45.7 2.96 2157 92.5 38828 6373 1.230
Lovex S070 110.0 47.9 3.10 2150 83.2 39388 6478 1.233
Norma 204 *C 110.0 50.0 3.24 2147 78.2 41448 6419 1.201
Ramshot Hunter 110.0 50.0 3.24 2146 81.8 38407 6707 1.233
Alliant BLUE DOT 77.8 27.9 1.81 2146 100.0 58740 4352 1.093
Accurate 4350 110.0 48.4 3.14 2138 84.8 35291 6811 1.267
IMR 4350 110.0 48.1 3.12 2134 81.4 40491 6241 1.214
PB Clermont PCL 518 110.0 50.0 3.24 2123 80.4 37477 6611 1.248
Bofors RP4 NT *C ~approximation 110.0 49.1 3.18 2118 80.6 38335 6367 1.239
Last edited by RiverRider; 10/16/20.
Don't be the darkness.
America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.
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The main bullet I plan on using is the Sierra #2850 225gr Spitzer.
Thanks Darryle Great choice daryle. I love em in my 358’s and whelen
Ping pong balls for the win.
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Wow, that is some impressive information, I appreciate it.
Do y'all believe that QuickLoad is worth the investment?
Thanks Darryle
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I'll give my own opinion, Darryl.
It IS worth it just for the educational value alone. When I first got it, I explored the variables that interested me and fiddled with them to see how results were affected. It revealed things to me that I would never have figured out by loading and shooting over a chronograph. I found myself spending an entire evening playing with it completely oblivious to the passage of time.
If you buy it with expectations of never needing published load data again you would be making a mistake. There have been a few times I ventured out into no-man's land because of the lack of data on the components or cartridge I was loading, and using the program as a guard rail of sorts, managed to keep myself out of trouble. I always compare QL solutions to published data if it's available.
There are known deficiencies in the program with some cartridges, but for the most part it is fairly accurate in predictions.
One thing I always do is observe the computed velocity corresponding to the pressure limit I want to stay under, and I do not exceed that velocity (except in cases where I can be confident there is actually some headroom above that chosen pressure limit). As an added caution, I will limit my velocity to that which corresponds to 63000 psi when the SAAMI limit is 65000 psi. I like a little extra margin of safety...but if I see an accuracy sweet spot developing as I approach 63000 psi, I'll go beyond just a bit to see where it is and consider all the things I'm observing as I shoot.
One thing that frustrates me is the lack of certain favorite powders in the QL powder database. There are updates about every two years, and I've been continually disappointed when these powders fail to show up in the update time after time after time. I've bought four or five updates, so I guess I've had the software since about 2010 or so.
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A potential problem is that the temperature stability of a given powder is not constant across different cartridges, and you can pretty much bet the 358 Win. wasn't the cartridge the powder was optimized around. Wonder if temp stable powders for the 308 Win would prove fruitful? I recall Mule Deer mentioning powder compression tends to help stability. Here's a few links on the subject in general, but not specific to the .358 Win: Powder Temperature sensitivity, again? With a meander on seating depth free bored rifles.Temp Stable Powders – “Stop the Insanity"
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Thanks RiverRider and Gringo Loco, I appreciate your input and thanks for the links, I will read them tonight while I am bored to tears at work.
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When you neck up a cartridge to a larger diameter bullet and the difference is considerable, you generally need to go to a faster burning powder. This is because the volume behind the bullet moving down the bore increases more dramatically when bullet diameter is appreciably greater. The .308 Winchester / .358 Winchester example fits well. If you necked up .270 Winchester to .284, the difference would not be great at all a powder that works well in one would work well in the other (such as is the case between .270 Winchester and .280 Remington).
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I have hunting with the 358 and shot it quite a lot. I wrote a separate thread on my loads for it, so will not repeat it here. My rifle has a 21" #3 barrel. My go to load is with IMR 4198 and a Barnes 200 TSX bullet. This load makes 2575 with a 2.95 COAL. I have tried H4198, H4895, and BLC-2. BLC-2 is too slow. H4895 is acceptable and might prove best with 225 grain bullets. My rifle likes 44 grains of IMR 4198 with the Barnes 200 grain TSX. It would be my go to powder for the 180 TSX too. Keep in mind the longer COAL allows for more powder capacity in my bolt gun. Your choice of the 225 Speer is just fine. However, I have never recovered a single 200 grain TSX from any game I have shot. One shot kills. DRT has been my experience. But I tend to shoot inside 200 yards and mostly inside 100. It is a potent game cartridge. There is no part of overkill which bothers me. Zero tracking.
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49 or 50 of tac, 225 sgk, I’d take anywhere...
Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
Ain’t easy havin pals.
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